Salvation - Is Sanctification Optional?

[rbarcia]

I have been justified by the blood of Christ when I repent and put my full trust in Jesus as my Savior.
Romans 5:1
Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
…
Romans 5:9
Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.

We Have been Saved from the Wrath of God. Past aspect of our salvation.

It begins the Sanctification process.

2 Corinthians 3:18
But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.

We are being Saved from the power of Sin. Present Aspect of salvation.

The Future Aspect of our salvation, is our Glorification. When we receive our resurrected body. The Scripture references where Paul speaks about future salvation are pointing towards our glorification. We will be saved from the presence of sin all together.

Glorification is the completion of our salvation.

1 Cor 15

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

That is why the resurrection is our hope and proof of eternal life.

 

[benedictus2]

I suggest you re-read my post above and think about it.

Yes you are through your FREE WILL to choose Jesus Christ. Thats “YOU” playing an active role in “your” salvation.

We respond to the grace but we do NOT save ourselves from ourselves.
Ergo the statement that WE save ourselves from our selves is totally wrong.

Right its His will ALL THE TIME. I assumed that was a foregone conclusion in Catholism for Dummies 101.

No it isn’tbecause you are affirming what Sufjon said. When you say such things as WE have the power to save ourselves from ourselves then you are not assuming that it is a foregone conclusion.

As Grandfather said, that statement is pelagian.

 

[benedictus2]

In Hinduism, there’s ultimately only one reality, The Absolute reality manifests itself in what we catholics call “the Cosmos” (Sufjon, if you’re reading this please correct me where I’m off) or the changing realm- The Absolute Reality itself remains eternal and unchanging. The underlying Principle is that, ultimately, all creation is a manifestation of God (The unchanging Absolute being), we are all one true self that we must each realize spiritually. Obviously this afects the spirituality. If everyone is a manifestation of God, then you must love them like yourself, and seeking the good of others cannot in reality be separated from God or the self.

Sufjon has commented that your summation is correct so I am assuming that this part is correct too.

Therefore, for the Hindu there is no such such thing as creation, everything and every being IS God. That is why Sufjon is able to say we have the power to save ourselves from ourselves. If we ARE God then indeed we would have the power to save our selves from ourselves. But if we ARE God, then god must be totally stupid to have seperated from himself and thereby causing evil in the world. In which case since evil is his doing (by chosing too seprate from himself) then how can god be goodness it self.

I hope Gary pays attention to this.

It is precisely this Hinduistic understanding of evil that some Catholics have re-interpreted the fall as man drawing dermacation lines between god and himself. But since all is God then it is God drawing lines between himself and himelf (basically self - combusting)

Catholicism teaches that the fall happened because man’s grasping at self-deification. We are not God but grasped at Godliness demanding to be God.

 

[benedictus2]

So now what other type of heretic would my Catholic Brothers and Sisters lable me?

Re-read my posts “think” before you rush to act off your feelings and type.

Peace and Love

Grandfather is right. Your post smacks of pelagianism.

 

[benedictus2]

Whos talking about the resurrection? Your body is going to Heaven?

Read the Creed. “We believe in the resurrection of the dead”. The resurrection of the dead includes bodily resurrection.

Where do you think your resurrected body will be if not in heaven?

When Christ rose from the dead, it was his human body that died and rose from the dead only it is elevated to a higher pitch. It is the same body and yet not entirely the same.

The only smack of anything is your complete lack of understanding. So are you now saying I’m a heretic? How charitable of you.

You decide since you are the one proposing a dualism with your post.

 

[Sufjon]

Therefore, for the Hindu there is no such such thing as creation, everything and every being IS God.

Hi again Bendictus: That is not actually a correct conclusion. Because everything is an expression or manifestation of God does not mean that we believe that there is no creation. God is pure Consciousness and exists outside of the physical realm, while those things within the physical realm are analogs of energy created by this supreme consciousness, and are dependent on God for their existence. Creation is an ongoing process. It never ends. God created it. It exists within Him and He in turn is the innermost self of all beings. Primary to it all is consciousness. Consciousness creates the physical world and therefore the physical world is dependent on consciousness.

That is why Sufjon is able to say we have the power to save ourselves from ourselves. If we ARE God then indeed we would have the power to save our selves from ourselves.

Not actually. We have the power to enlighten ourselves, which saves us from the illusion of individual self created by the nervous system (sense organs and brain). In our estimation it is not a matter of “if” the illusion is pealed away. It’s a matter of when. Remember, we believe that we have countless lifetimes in which to achieve this.

But if we ARE God, then god must be totally stupid to have seperated from himself and thereby causing evil in the world. In which case since evil is his doing (by chosing too seprate from himself) then how can god be goodness it self.

There is in actuality no separation. The only separation is the cunning and persistent illusion of separation. For instance, look how well it’s working on you. I have explained nonduality to you on numerous threads, but your perception is so entrenched in duality that you revert right back to it by saying that God is stupid for making us separate. What I have been telling you is that He did not make us separate.

It is precisely this Hinduistic understanding of evil that some Catholics have re-interpreted the fall as man drawing dermacation lines between god and himself. But since all is God then it is God drawing lines between himself and himelf (basically self - combusting)

You are confusing sentience with consciousness. Sentience is only the experiential agent of consciousness.

Catholicism teaches that the fall happened because man’s grasping at self-deification. We are not God but grasped at Godliness demanding to be God.

Yes, I know. I respect that. I don’t believe it, but if it’s sacred to you then I hold it in good esteem.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[benedictus2]

Hi again Bendictus: That is not actually a correct conclusion. Because everything is an expression or manifestation of God does not mean that we believe that there is no creation. God is pure Consciousness and exists outside of the physical realm, while those things within the physical realm are analogs of energy created by this supreme consciousness, and are dependent on God for their existence. Creation is an ongoing process. It never ends. God created it. It exists within Him and He in turn is the innermost self of all beings. Primary to it all is consciousness. Consciousness creates the physical world and therefore the physical world is dependent on consciousness.

Not actually. We have the power to enlighten ourselves, which saves us from the illusion of individual self created by the nervous system (sense organs and brain). In our estimation it is not a matter of “if” the illusion is pealed away. It’s a matter of when. Remember, we believe that we have countless lifetimes in which to achieve this.

There is in actuality no separation. The only separation is the cunning and persistent illusion of separation. For instance, look how well it’s working on you. I have explained nonduality to you on numerous threads, but your perception is so entrenched in duality that you revert right back to it by saying that God is stupid for making us separate. What I have been telling you is that He did not make us separate.

You are confusing sentience with consciousness. Sentience is only the experiential agent of consciousness.

Yes, I know. I respect that. I don’t believe it, but if it’s sacred to you then I hold it in good esteem.

Your friend
Sufjon

Thank you for that clarification.

However, this just emphasizes that this view point is completely different to the Catholic understanding, so I don’t know why Gary would think that what you are saying is Catholic.

Another thing is that it brings home my earlier point that this understanding is so different to Christian theology such that I don’t think Hindus even speak of salvation as such.

Enlightenment for the Hindu is not the same as salvation for the Christian.

That is why I said earlier that bringing in this issue in this thread just derails because the point of the thread is whether for some Christians, sanctification is optional since I think some maintain that once justified, one is already saved.

Anyway, this will be my last reply to this tangent as this thread has already been very much derailed.

 

[GaryTaylor]

benedictus2, sorry you feel the way the do, my prayers are with you.

Peace

 

[GaryTaylor]

1022 Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification594 or immediately,595 – or immediate and everlasting damnation.

II. HEAVEN

1023 Those who die in God’s grace and friendship and are perfectly purified live for ever with Christ. They are like God for ever, for they “see him as he is,” face to face:598

By virtue of our apostolic authority, we define the following: According to the general disposition of God, the souls of all the saints . . . and other faithful who died after receiving Christ’s holy Baptism (provided they were not in need of purification when they died, . . . or, if they then did need or will need some purification, when they have been purified after death, . . .) already before they take up their bodies again and before the general judgment - and this since the Ascension of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ into heaven - have been, are and will be in heaven, in the heavenly Kingdom and celestial paradise with Christ, joined to the company of the holy angels. Since the Passion and death of our Lord Jesus Christ, these souls have seen and do see the divine essence with an intuitive vision, and even face to face, without the mediation of any creature.599

1024 This perfect life with the Most Holy Trinity - this communion of life and love with the Trinity, with the Virgin Mary, the angels and all the blessed - is called “heaven.” Heaven is the ultimate end and fulfillment of the deepest human longings, the state of supreme, definitive happiness.

1025 To live in heaven is “to be with Christ.” The elect live "in Christ,"600 but they retain, or rather find, their true identity, their own name.601

For life is to be with Christ; where Christ is, there is life, there is the kingdom.602

1026 By his death and Resurrection, Jesus Christ has “opened” heaven to us. The life of the blessed consists in the full and perfect possession of the fruits of the redemption accomplished by Christ. He makes partners in his heavenly glorification those who have believed in him and remained faithful to his will. Heaven is the blessed community of all who are perfectly incorporated into Christ.

1027 This mystery of blessed communion with God and all who are in Christ is beyond all understanding and description. Scripture speaks of it in images: life, light, peace, wedding feast, wine of the kingdom, the Father’s house, the heavenly Jerusalem, paradise: "no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man conceived, what God has prepared for those who love him."603

1028 Because of his transcendence, God cannot be seen as he is, unless he himself opens up his mystery to man’s immediate contemplation and gives him the capacity for it. The Church calls this contemplation of God in his heavenly glory “the beatific vision”:

How great will your glory and happiness be, to be allowed to see God, to be honored with sharing the joy of salvation and eternal light with Christ your Lord and God, . . . to delight in the joy of immortality in the Kingdom of heaven with the righteous and God’s friends.604

1029 In the glory of heaven the blessed continue joyfully to fulfill God’s will in relation to other men and to all creation. Already they reign with Christ; with him "they shall reign for ever and ever."605

Thats what I believe:thumbsup:

As far as resurrection I answered that above, I suppose though the only reason it was bought up was to support a heretical claim, wasn’t a mystery. Really has nothing to do with the process of santification. Sancification on earth I would imagine is what we should be focused on.

Peace and Love

 

[GaryTaylor]

My point about St Theresa is this, in her book Interior Castle she makes a comment that if you don’t take anything else ought of the book, take this. {to paraphase}

Her actual words…

First, we must learn to have the greatest fear of offending God, and we must continue to pray in worship to not allow us to fall, especially when the terrible consequence is known.

Second, in the mirror of humility we must see that any good we do has its source, not ourselfs but rather in that spring where this tree, which is the soul, is planted, and in the sun which spreads it radience on our works.

Once you see and know this than you will also know that any good does not come from you, but our Lord. Without his help we are powerless. Praise God for all your good, never give a thought of it to yourself. St Theresa of Avila

As St Paul states “it is not I who live but Christ within me”

So here you see the content/context of what I was so inadaquately trying to state. May our Lord forgive me.

God Bless.

 

[GaryTaylor]

St Catherine of Siena “A Passionate Life” states …

“In difficult times I imagined I was employed by the Holy Family. When I was denied a place to pray, I found a place inside myself which no-one could take.”

“Build yourself a cell within your heart, and never come out of it”

…

Of course she speaks of seeking the constant inner connection with the Lord, the constant turn inward opposed to outward, while being in the outward situation.

Really the theory become’s Church/Sacrements…First. However, when you leave church God is still with you. There is no absence from His presence. Through distraction, evil, the vanity of the physical world, its this interior life which leads to sanctification.

The temptation to leave a state of grace doesn’t happen in Church or while receiving the Sacrements. This happens outside of church in the world. But here also you can seek sanctification through the constant desire to seek God first, thus the above thinking.

Peace

 

[Marybeloved]

It exists within Him and He in turn is the innermost self of all beings. Primary to it all is consciousness.

I believe I see where the confusion may lie. You see this statement by Sufjon says it all (the difference). Catholics believe this too, in a way, but we do not hold that God is the inner most self of each one. Gary’s reference to the interior castle is what makes it clear to me why he may have had some trouble recognizing the difference between the Hindu and Catholic mystic perspective, because they are just so close in many ways.

We say that God is everywhere and in everything. He gives existence to everything (and not just in a particular time) but as long as the thing exists. Basically, God is giving me existence right now, as I type- He’s keeping me here- I’m quite literally in the palm of his hands.

We also say that he’s much more present in the soul than everywhere else, and indeed is in the center of the soul itself. If you will, he’s the soul of the soul, or the heart of the heart. But we don’t consider that it makes him our own self, or part of our being- He remains distinct, though our very center. What it does is it just makes us utterly dependent on him. What is it we Catholics say after all? Oh yeah, I believe it is “God is more intimate to us than we are to ourselves”. I’ve seen this center of the center (in us) expressed elsewhere as the point at which our soul derives its being from God- where we begin to exist. Like if you could travel to the centre of your soul and see the “where” (for lack of a better expression) in us God is, you would have travelled to where you (as an existence) begin. But it could all be too much philosophical conjecture.

Now, this particular presence of God in us, is different from the one of Grace. It’s per our being. It’s there whether we sin or not. If not, non of us would be. But God in our center retains his own existence separately from that which he gives to us- To our soul, body and all our being. The supernatural presence (the order of grace) involves God not just giving us the proper life of the particular being he gives, but *his very own life *as ours! God gives to the soul not just its own life, but the very life of the Blessed Trinity!

These things can be very confusing, but I hope we can see why they are so close and yet very different. God is indeed the center of our center, the life of our life, the holder of our being- in one way that we can call “naturally”; and the very life our souls partake in above their own life/being, in another that we call Supernatural/Grace.

 

[Sufjon]

However, this just emphasizes that this view point is completely different to the Catholic understanding, so I don’t know why Gary would think that what you are saying is Catholic.

Hi Benedictus: I can’t really make any authoritative judgement on that, but what we believe does appear to be different than your standard canonical understandings of yoru scriptures. I think that there are mystics within your faith whose understanding is much closer to ours, but I don’t think that they have any authority. Of course Hindus aren’t much into authority on such things. I also see very close similarities between our beliefs and Hasidic Jews in regards to the relationship between God and creation. These are at the core level. I don’t for instance think that all of the stories in the Torah are literal historical truths.

Another thing is that it brings home my earlier point that this understanding is so different to Christian theology such that I don’t think Hindus even speak of salvation as Enlightenment for the Hindu is not the same as salvation for the Christian.

You’re right. We don’t see any need to be saved, because you will eventually find your way to God, therefore we are not lost (insofar as we believe).

T

hat is why I said earlier that bringing in this issue in this thread just derails because the point of the thread is whether for some Christians, sanctification is optional since I think some maintain that once justified, one is already saved.

I get the sense that that is true as well, at least that is what I have taken away from discussions with different sorts of Christians.

Your friend,
Sufjon

 

[Sufjon]

The supernatural presence (the order of grace) involves God not just giving us the proper life of the particular being he gives, but *his very own life *as ours! God gives to the soul not just its own life, but the very life of the Blessed Trinity!

Hi MaryBeloved: I think that points to the difference pretty well. My sense is that Christians believe that they have their own private individual soul for all times, whereas we would say that you have a life of your own in the same way that a drop of water does. It can go off and become vapor in a cloud, fall as snow, exist as part of a glacier, and travel as far as it likes, but once it returns to the ocean, there is only ocean. Ultimately, over countless journeys we will find our way home and realize oneness in an ocean of Pure Consciousness and eternal bliss.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[fhansen]

Hi MaryBeloved: I think that points to the difference pretty well. My sense is that Christians believe that they have their own private individual soul for all times, whereas we would say that you have a life of your own in the same way that a drop of water does. It can go off and become vapor in a cloud, fall as snow, exist as part of a glacier, and travel as far as it likes, but once it returns to the ocean, there is only ocean. Ultimately, over countless journeys we will find our way home and realize oneness.

Your friend
Sufjon

In this understanding, do you think oneness implies identitylessness, to coin a new word?

 

[Sufjon]

In this understanding, do you think oneness implies identitylessness, to coin a new word?

It is our belief that there is one underlying identity that dwells in all things. The idea of these things perceiving their own identity is Maya, which is an effect on the perceptions had by Purusha (Sanskrit for spirit) operating in the field of Prakriti (Sanskrit for nature or creation). But ultimately, we believe that there is only the Atman (the One Great Soul) and that we are Jivatman (fragments of the one great soul). Like pieces of a puzzle scattered here and about, they come together and fit perfectly as One. This happens for each fragment over time in the form of realization. So, we do believe that we have an identity, however, it is infinitely more than what we perceive.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[fhansen]

It is our belief that there is one underlying identity that dwells in all things. The idea of these things perceiving their own identity is Maya, which is an effect on the perceptions had by Purusha (Sanskrit for spirit) operating in the field of Prakriti (Sanskrit for nature or creation). But ultimately, we believe that there is only the Atman (the One Great Soul) and that we are Jivatman (fragments of the one great soul). Like pieces of a puzzle scattered here and about, they come together and fit perfectly as One. This happens for each fragment over time in the form of realization. So, we do believe that we have an identity, however, it is infinitely more than what we perceive.

Your friend
Sufjon

So does our identity still retain personhood, self-awareness?

 

[JonNC]

Near the beginning of this thread, the issue of the need for sanctification within Lutheran teaching was raised. Without intending to derail the current discussion, I offer this link to those who are interested.

lutherantheology.com/uploads/works/wabiotg/11-Sanctification.html
The author is Wallace H. McLaughlin.

Jon

 

[GaryTaylor]

You know I have read “some” of the Buddist and Zen teaching. To some degree I feel they are catching on to something.

But I’m not seeing or hearing exacly what it is. To me it seems they have found the soul as the C-Mystics do, they either don’t have it identified, or it seems elusive at that point?

With myself I see what the Catholic Mystics are saying through my own NDE, and my MSW helped with the ego, illusion, behavior etc. Thus diving into faith by faith. But from my own personal experience without detail, I’m totally convinced they are spot-on. In other words they explained what I could not comprehend about myself. Not to compare myself to the saints, but I believe it was signal grace as explained in the Rosary. Which is why I continue to pray daily, I’m stupified by it. But I have never been anywhere but the Catholic Church. So I couldn’t tell how it is to drive a Lincoln if all I ever drove was a Cadillac.

Buy hey, to me its about respectful open dialogue.

 

[Marybeloved]

You know I have read “some” of the Buddist and Zen teaching. To some degree I feel they are catching on to something.

But I’m not seeing or hearing exacly what it is. To me it seems they have found the soul as the C-Mystics do, they either don’t have it identified, or it seems elusive at that point?

With myself I see what the Catholic Mystics are saying through my own NDE, and my MSW helped with the ego, illusion, behavior etc. Thus diving into faith by faith. But from own personal experience without detail, I’m totally convinced they are spot-on. In other words they explained what I could comprehend about myself. Not to compare mysef to the saints, but I believe it was signal grace as expalined in the Rosary. Whicj is why I continue to pray daily, I’m stupified by it. But I have never been anywhere but the Catholic Church. So I couldn’t tell how it is to drive a Lincoln if all I ever drove was a Cadillac.

Buy hey, to me its about respectful open dialogue.

Hi, Gary,

Mind explaining what NDE and MSW stand for?