Agreed - this is the Catholic view.Justification is not only a state but a continuing process.
Respectfully, I think you misunderstood my point about Luther, which was, if it’s all God’s grace, and it’s meaningless to engage in discussion about justification (e.g., the hypothetical I gave you), then Luther had no reason to protest.I think you misunderstand Luther
This is a straw man. Sanctification and justification are not available through other means other than God’s grace, and I never indicated as such.Question…if sanctification and justification are available thru other means than by the grace and mercy of God…please explain.
OkHi Richard: The dialog simply brings to the forefront some profound differences in perception that exist between various religions in regards to the nature of our being and our relationship to God. Primarily I am trying to gain a better foundation of the Christian view, and in the course of doing so, the conversation necessarily requires that I reveal some of what my religion believes so that I can sort out the divergences between the belief systems. That is not to say that I would change what Christians believe or that I would change what I believe. It’s simply a matter of gaining an understanding.
You seem to have at least a rudimentary knowledge of parts of the bible yet unaware or intensionally ignorant of other parts. God did create man in His imageThis gives me another point of confusion to deal with. If we are made in the image of God, and Jesus is God, why would we need to transform into the image of Jesus, who is a component of the Triune Being that we were already made in the image of? Again, this would lead me back to my sense that what is needed is more of a realization of what we are rather than a change in our nature. In my limited view, it appears that it’s not a matter of what we are, but inability to properly perceive what we are.
So you are saying that holiness or sanctity is something that we achieve and we achieve this by adjusting our perception of ourselves and the world around us to some arbitrary, you never do define it, feeling of being holy or sacred. This in my estimation is fraught with danger. Suppose your perception of holiness or sanctity is totally askew, in fact you said “If we are not seeing ourselves and the world around us as holy and sacred then we are not likely to be feeling holy or sacred” to be quite honest I have a really hard time looking at the world, at least the world of man, and seeing holiness. Anyway if your perception is off how can this lead you to a genuine being of holiness?I believe that all things are holy and all things are sacred, and insofar as I am able to ascertain, the definition of sanctity is indeed to be holy and sacred. If we are not seeing ourselves and the world around us as holy and sacred then we are not likely to be feeling holy or sacred, and if we are not feeling holy or sacred, we are not likely to be acting holy or sacred. Not in a genuine way. For one who knows that he or she is holy and sacred, holy behavior is only an outward manifestation of an inner state of being that has been achieved or fully realized.
Ok, you really need to define what “True realization of holiness” is.Acting that way otherwise is just acting. I read some things that Saint Paul wrote where he suffered immensely in an unending battle he had with the desire for sense pleasures. From the perspective of eastern thought this would be because he tried to work it in reverse order, or more specifically, trying to act holy while still wanting to act in unholy ways. True realization of holiness expunges our being of the desire to act in unholy ways. The change that needs to take place is not in the core nature of our being, but in the awakening, or resurrection of the Christ within us. This is why someone such as myself would not see the Second Coming to be one universally experienced historical event to be anticipated, but something that happens to each person one by one, as we resurrect the Christ within us.
But if the world around us is holy why would it be bad to lust after it?Yes, sin is the inability to see our true nature of holiness and sacredness. One who feels holy and sacred, and sees the world around them as the same, will not lie, cheat, steal, kill, lust for, want for or otherwise desire that which is unholy.
You mean all other acts of imperception (your definition) “Yes, sin is the inability to see our true nature of holiness and sacredness”We build on this problematic perception of ourselves throughout life because of our inundation in the world of sense objects and sense perception, which obscures our view into the divine effulgence of the inner light that is the true core of all beings. Therefore it would stand to reason that the lack of perception of our holiness is the original sin, and the gateway sin to all other acts of sin that follow.
So again, we can save ourselves by changing our perceptionI don’t perceive that one can change the core essence of what one is. What you are is what you are. It is the wrongful perception of what we are that needs changing. If you see yourself as being separated from God, you will feel separated from God, and if you feel separated from God, you are in effect and for all practical purposes, separated, alone, and looking for salvation. So you behave yourself as best you can, avoid bad actions, do good deeds, attend services, participate in rights, and yet you still feel separated from God, alone, and in need of salvation. We are in fact only separated from God because we are not seeing Him in ourselves, the people around us, in other beings and in the world around us. If you feel the ground you walk on is holy, then you will walk on it like it is holy, and you will feel it’s holiness and your own holiness. You will no longer feel separated. People who have near death experiences often describe this ability to perceive their oneness with all things and the sacredness of all things. During these experiences, the day to day normal distractions of the sensory world have been removed.
I do not see it as a process, but an awakening to our natural state of being. I am not suggesting that you abandon the mainstream Christian perception of such things. Your journey is your own to take, and how you do that is up to you to a large extent, and largely based on what you’ve been taught. I am only explaining what others like myself see, while trying to better understand what you see.
So in effect you are your own savior, redeemer?Your friend
Sufjon
You seem to have at least a rudimentary knowledge of parts of the bible yet unaware or intensionally ignorant of other parts. God did create man in His image
Gen.1
26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
But that image did not include sin.
31And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
Man sinned after he was created. Sin is not a part of the image of God. Sin is man’s choice and it has made man’s heart desperately wicked.
Thank you for the replies Richard. I am aware that the view of the writers of the old Testament on human nature are dark. I have no desire to change anyone’s view. Rather, I am trying to get a sound understanding of your view.Jeremiah 17:9
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
God is holy. He wants to live with man. Rev21:3,4 but He cannot will not live with man in an unholy state. So He sent His son to take the sin’s of mankind upon Himself so that He could realize His desire to live with His beloved creation. Justification is the acceptance of the Gift of God of His son. This is instantaneous when we accept Him. Sanctification is the process off becoming more like Jesus and takes the rest of our lives. Jn.17:17Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
I don’t think you achieve holiness by any means. I believe that all beings at their core already ARE holy. The point is the realization of it. This is the widely accepted view in my faith tradition. I am aware that the understanding among mainstream Christians is different. In the second part, you asked me to define it, but I’m not sure what you want me to define - the process by which one comes to realize and feel their holiness, or how it feels to feel holy. If you can clarify, I will he happy to answer.So you are saying that holiness or sanctity is something that we achieve and we achieve this by adjusting our perception of ourselves and the world around us to some arbitrary, you never do define it, feeling of being holy or sacred.
It is the awakening of the Christ within you. It’s already there. The process by which one sees it would be the topic of a very large thread.Ok, you really need to define what “True realization of holiness” is.
The world is not inherently bad. Our perceptions can be misaligned, and our actions in it can be misguided. These cause pain and suffering, but not because the world is bad.ut if the world around us is holy why would it be bad to lust after it?
Absolutely.You mean all other acts of imperception (your definition) “Yes, sin is the inability to see our true nature of holiness and sacredness”
You cannot be saved, because you are not lost. Nothing is ever lost. Wherever you are, you are home. Jesus was crucified once, but His message is crucified every day.So again, we can save ourselves by changing our perception
This is what’s faulty in protestant theology.You would be ready to enter God’s presence from the moment you enter a state of justification. Sanctification is a life long process and is never fully completed until death (fully completed as in sinless). It is not optional because it always follows justification.
Sanctification is God’s declaration of your innocence playing itself out eschatologically throughout the course of the Christian life as we grow in grace, through His word and sacraments, and more fully reflect the Christ who dwells in us and us in Him.
Based on what I’ve read it is not sanctification that is God’s declaration of your innocence but rather justification, that is why it is called forensic justification. God declares you just but leave you the sinner that you are. This is why it is often called imputed justification in contrast to the Catholic understanding of infused.Sanctification is God’s declaration of your innocence
I see no reconciliation between your view [we just need a perception adjustment] and the Christian view. That we are all sinners Rom.3: 23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; worthy only of death Rom.6:23For the wages of sin is death; and in need of a Savior. Rom.6:23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.You cannot be saved, because you are not lost. Nothing is ever lost. Wherever you are, you are home. Jesus was crucified once, but His message is crucified every day.
Your friend,
Sufjon
You’ve lost me…I don’t believe I ever indicated it is “meaningless to engage in discussion about justification…”Agreed - this is the Catholic view.
Respectfully, I think you misunderstood my point about Luther, which was, if it’s all God’s grace, and it’s meaningless to engage in discussion about justification (e.g., the hypothetical I gave you), then Luther had no reason to protest.
This is a straw man. Sanctification and justification are not available through other means other than God’s grace, and I never indicated as such.
This gets to the heart of the question; namely, if one’s sins are covered by the cloak of Christ’s righteousness (read: imputed to the sinner), then he is Christ-like at the moment he believes, and therefore innocent before God. ** If that’s true, then even a believer who falls away (see hypothetical) will never be “cut off.”** Thus, the concept of “persevering to the end” makes no sense (see Matthew 10:22; 24:13). By way of illustration, if I have committed a crime, but the prosecutor decides not to press charges against me (perhaps because of lack of evidence, or he or she finds my actions were justifiable, or I have immunity, or whatever), then why go through the trouble of hiring a defense attorney, appearing before the judge, pleading not guilty, calling witnesses, etc.? The state has assigned no guilt to my actions and the case is closed; from the law’s perspective, I am innocent and there’s no need for a trial of any kind.If all that is necessary is to be justified forensically, what need is there for sanctification?
If once justified one can enter the presence of God then all that is required is justification since the goal is simply to enter the Presence of God. So why the need for sanctification?
Sufjon, first, let me just say that I appreciate the respectful dialogue, and your honest desire to gain an understanding of the Judeo-Christian God.Thank you for the replies Richard. I am aware that the view of the writers of the old Testament on human nature are dark. I have no desire to change anyone’s view. Rather, I am trying to get a sound understanding of your view.
If by our nature we are holy, how do humans become corrupt; how do you explain evil?I believe that all beings at their core already ARE holy.
How does one realize their intrinsic holiness? Also, how does it feel to be, at your core, “holy” and set apart from mankind? If you are holy, I’m assuming that once you have achieved it you cannot be corrupted, otherwise holiness would be pointless…The point is the realization of it… In the second part, you asked me to define it, but I’m not sure what you want me to define - the process by which one comes to realize and feel their holiness, or how it feels to feel holy. If you can clarify, I will he happy to answer.
Recap:You’ve lost me…
Recap:
Publisher- Sanctification IS the result of justification/salvation. The moment of justification by faith in Christ occurs “in an instant” (i.e., not a process) and we are sanctified instantly, and therefore ready to enter God’s presence. However, we do “get off the path from time to time.”
We are justified at the moment of repentance and the indwelling Pressence of the Holy Spirit enters us…we receive a new nature…sanctification is an ongoing process…linked to justification as the two cannot be separated.
Stewstew03- What happens to those who get off the path from time to time; i.e., the backsliders? Are they sanctified and therefore prepared to enter God’s Kingdom?
Publisher- Don’t know. Only God’s grace can save us. It is the work of the Holy Spirit to continue to cleans us…to convict us of sin…to bring us back to a state of repentance and confession and receive God’s grace and mercy…if a “backslider” dies He is in God’s hands…now more than ever he needs the grace and mercy of God offered thru Christ.
Stewstew03- True, only God’s grace can save us - so is this a meaningless discussion? After all, that kind of answer (only God’s grace) can be a response to just about anything. (For example, can idolaters be saved? Who knows - only God’s grace can save us!) Luther didn’t seem to think the issue of justification was meaningless.
I didn’t say he did…that was your conclusion friend.
Publisher- Justification is not only a state but a continuing process. Santification is an ongoing process. If one does not “walk the walk” one isn’t on the “walk.”
So, you began by describing justification as a “once and for all” sanctifying event that occurs instantly; No friend…I did not…justification occurs in an instant when we put our trust in Christ…I think the problem is we are speaking past one another…justification and sanctification cannot be separated…one cannot be “justified” yet not begin experiencing the “change” to our “inward man”…our “inward man” becomes a “new creation”…we must walk in the Light as He is in the Light…I am not ‘almost’ justified…I either have received the gift of salvation or I haven’t…santification is that ongoing process…linked with justification…
but in your most recent post you seemed to agree with me that it is indeed a process. However, if justification and sanctification are one and the same, and justification/sanctification occur instantly, and once you are justified/sanctified you are justified/sanctified for all eternity, then I guess I am confused about how that is a “process” in your mind…?
**The Holy Spirit makes us clean before God…the righteousness of Christ is not only “imputed” to us but “imparted” to us…we just don’t “appear” to be holy…God sanctifies us to enter His Presence by a real spiritual “re-birth”…we are “new creations”…and as “new creations” we are to walk in the LIght…you and I agree more than we disagreee…but justification and sanctification are not “separate”…we are recipients of grace through faith which brings about the forgiveness of sins…we are “washed” clean.**Thanks for the discussion.
Humans become corrupt by association with the world of form, and association with the ego (which is an illusion). The ego is the child of the sense organs and the brain. It gives us the sense of “I,” “Me,” and “Mine.” It gives the illusion of “my house” “my wife” “my husband” “my car” “my problems” “my country” and so on. None of these things are ours. They are transient components of an ever-changing world of form, and you will lose every one of them before it’s done. Therefore, it is useless to fall prey to the illusion that they were ever yours to begin with. This doesn’t mean that you don’t appreciate and experience them, but any attachment to them is the cause of all suffering. Listen to Jesus on this:If by our nature we are holy, how do humans become corrupt; how do you explain evil?
Basically you have to see God. It is outlined in great detail in Hindi scripture –volume upon volume on it. But happily for Christians, Jesus sums up the process by which one sees God rather nicely.How does one realize their intrinsic holiness?
Well, it’s not anything anyone can tell you. There is no point of reference. If you look for words to define how it feels, your mind gets into the mix. When your mind gets into it, then it’s gone. You have to let it be.Also, how does it feel to be, at your core, “holy” and set apart from mankind?
You can and will slip. It’s a thing that takes time and effort. Lots of both. The problem is that you can’t force it. You have to let it happen. That takes mindfulness. You have to be still and you have to watch. This is where the effort is. This is work. You can’t fight the ego. Fighting it strengthens it’s sense of being, and it wants to survive. It knows how to work us like a tool. It makes us think about “I”, “Me” and “Mine”. Just watch it. Watching it and being mindful of it is how you free yourself of it. Only a fully realized jivatman (soul) feels holiness constantly and forever. This is heaven. Until then, it’s work. But you do get to feel it. This is helpful. Moreover, no effort is pointless or wasted. Any endeavor to reach God is part of a journey that ends where it started.If you are holy, I’m assuming that once you have achieved it you cannot be corrupted, otherwise holiness would be pointless…
Not protestant, but Lutheran. Lutheran views of justification and sanctification are in many ways different than othe protestants.=benedictus2;8667753
This is what’s faulty in protestant theology.
Iggy explains the need for sanctification quite well, I thought.If all that is necessary is to be justified forensically, what need is there for sanctification?
Maybe so, maybe not.This split between justification and sanctification is a theological novum that came about only during the reformation.
Because one can choose to reject grace.If once justified one can enter the presence of God then all that is required is justification since the goal is simply to enter the Presence of God. So why the need for sanctification?
Lutherans say justification is God’s declaration of our innocense based on grace and the innocense and righteousness of Christ, yet we remain sinners - at once saint and sinner. Still some do not understand that this, by necessity, requires sanctification, growth in grace, and why Lutherans continue to preach the need for sanctification - growing in grace. As Paul says when he complains that the good he would do, that he does not, and the wrong he would not do, that he does. It is a confusing thing, being saint and sinner.Based on what I’ve read it is not sanctification that is God’s declaration of your innocence but rather justification, that is why it is called forensic justification. God declares you just but leave you the sinner that you are. This is why it is often called imputed justification in contrast to the Catholic understanding of infused.
Hi Richard:
Humans become corrupt by association with the world of form, and association with the ego (which is an illusion). The ego is the child of the sense organs and the brain. It gives us the sense of “I,” “Me,” and “Mine.” It gives the illusion of “my house” “my wife” “my husband” “my car” “my problems” “my country” and so on. None of these things are ours. They are transient components of an ever-changing world of form, and you will lose every one of them before it’s done. Therefore, it is useless to fall prey to the illusion that they were ever yours to begin with. This doesn’t mean that you don’t appreciate and experience them, but any attachment to them is the cause of all suffering. Listen to Jesus on this:
“None of you can be my disciple unless he gives up everything he has.”
He doesn’t mean sell your house and car, quit your job and abandon your kids. He means let go. Letting go of the sense of what is “Mine.” Letting go of the sense of “Me.” Letting go of the sense of “I.” Until you let go, you will not see Him, and therefore cannot follow Him.
Basically you have to see God. It is outlined in great detail in Hindi scripture –volume upon volume on it. But happily for Christians, Jesus sums up the process by which one sees God rather nicely.
“Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’
He is saying something very profound and it’s not just about loving God and loving those around you. It is about seeing that they are one in the same. Once you see God in all beings and in all things, then you see their intrinsic holiness, and therein is the key to feeling your own holiness. It’s all you have to do. But how easy is it to love the person who flipped you off in traffic as much as you do your own kids, or as much as you love yourself? The problem is that idea of “mine” and “me” again. Nothing is yours, and once we see that, we are able to love everything freely. This commandment is not an easy thing to do. It takes time and effort, so the sooner a person starts, the better.
Well, it’s not anything anyone can tell you. There is no point of reference. If you look for words to define how it feels, your mind gets into the mix. When your mind gets into it, then it’s gone. You have to let it be.
You can and will slip. It’s a thing that takes time and effort. Lots of both. The problem is that you can’t force it. You have to let it happen. That takes mindfulness. You have to be still and you have to watch. This is where the effort is. This is work. You can’t fight the ego. Fighting it strengthens it’s sense of being, and it wants to survive. It knows how to work us like a tool. It makes us think about “I”, “Me” and “Mine”. Just watch it. Watching it and being mindful of it is how you free yourself of it. Only a fully realized jivatman (soul) feels holiness constantly and forever. This is heaven. Until then, it’s work. But you do get to feel it. This is helpful. Moreover, no effort is pointless or wasted. Any endeavor to reach God is part of a journey that ends where it started.
Your friend
Sufjon
It all depends on whether or not we sin after Baptism-which most inevitably will, I suppose, but not because we’re still sinners, at least not yet, but because we still retain concupiscence, which is not itself sin in the Catholic viewpoint, but rather a weakness of the will towards sin, This sets us up for battle against sin-and towards love- which is then part of the process of sanctification unto the justification which we had at Baptism, and could’ve always kept if willing. Baptism puts us on the same plane as Adam & Eve, but we’re still tested to see if we’ll turn away again as they did. The process always involves are wills.Lutherans say justification is God’s declaration of our innocense based on grace and the innocense and righteousness of Christ, yet we remain sinners - at once saint and sinner. Still some do not understand that this, by necessity, requires sanctification, growth in grace, and why Lutherans continue to preach the need for sanctification - growing in grace. As Paul says when he complains that the good he would do, that he does not, and the wrong he would not do, that he does. It is a confusing thing, being saint and sinner.
Cory, in your post here, you seem to set up a contrast; that being that Lutherans say one is declared just by God yet we remain sinners. Is then the implication that because of infused righteousness, we are no longer sinners? Is the phrase, “at once saint and sinner”
theologically untenable in Catholicism?
Jon
Not quite I think. Iggy explained the process but not the need for it.Iggy explains the need for sanctification quite well, I thought.
But that’s just it. If we are justified (e.g. declared just by God then according to Lutheran theology we are therefore just). If the just can go before the presence of God then what’s all this about needing sanctification since the main objective is to be before the Presence fo God- i.e. heaven.Because one can choose to reject grace.