Since according to this the just remain sinners, therefore God is basically lying to Himself declaring you just when you are not. Then to make his declaration true, He then proceeds to sanctify you so that you can indeed be just.Lutherans say justification is God’s declaration of our innocense based on grace and the innocense and righteousness of Christ, yet we remain sinners - at once saint and sinner.
But you are only able to ask this because you have this two stage view.Cory, in your post here, you seem to set up a contrast; that being that Lutherans say one is declared just by God yet we remain sinners. Is then the implication that because of infused righteousness, we are no longer sinners? Is the phrase, “at once saint and sinner”
theologically untenable in Catholicism?
Jon
Light dispels darkness. They can not dwell together. You can not be repentant and impenitent at the same time. A thing can be neither good or evil, but be used for one or the other. Technology is an example. A person can do good or evil, but not at the same time. You are either in the state of grace or the state of sin at any one time.Lutherans say justification is God’s declaration of our innocense based on grace and the innocense and righteousness of Christ, yet we remain sinners - at once saint and sinner. Still some do not understand that this, by necessity, requires sanctification, growth in grace, and why Lutherans continue to preach the need for sanctification - growing in grace. As Paul says when he complains that the good he would do, that he does not, and the wrong he would not do, that he does. It is a confusing thing, being saint and sinner.
Cory, in your post here, you seem to set up a contrast; that being that Lutherans say one is declared just by God yet we remain sinners. Is then the implication that because of infused righteousness, we are no longer sinners? Is the phrase, “at once saint and sinner”
theologically untenable in Catholicism?
Jon
Holiness or sanctity comes in degrees or capacities. When sin is taken away by mercy you are just. That kind of takes you from being a debtor to having zero balance in your account. You owe nothing and have nothing. Sanctification is indeed a process, a growth process and the saints metaphorically have crowns, more or fewer. Mary is greater than Peter for example. Her level of sanctity is greater. But here in this life we grow in holiness through sanctification, or shrivel. Scripture declares Joseph a just man. That was long before his death.But you are only able to ask this because you have this two stage view.
We don’t hold to the two stage view. Sanctification is a process and God does not say we are just until the process is over. Until we are saints (completely transformed and deified/sanctified) we are simply sinners on the road to sainthood. If nothing unclean will enter heaven, then forensic justification is not enough to get one to heaven.
That is why purgatory is crucial to the overall theology of salvation.
Because salvation is not only about getting us into the presence of God, or getting us saved. The need for sanctification is not about self-improvement, per se (that would be moralism). The need for sanctification is to love and serve our neighbors in our jobs, families, communities, etc. This cannot take place in a Christ-like manner without justification. We have to be reconciled with God first. We are saved in order to do good works and glorify God (Eph. 2:8-10).Not quite I think. Iggy explained the process but not the need for it.
I asked you the same question in another thread.
If we are justified and thus can go before the Presence of God once justified, what is the need for sanctification since justification is enough to get us before the Presence of God?
Not at all. It would be lying if God simply invented or made up a righteousness which does not exist. This is, however, not the case because it is predicated on a factual righteousness which exists in the Person of Christ. That righteousness is ours by virtue of our Baptism into His life, death, and resurrection.Since according to this the just remain sinners, therefore God is basically lying to Himself declaring you just when you are not. Then to make his declaration true, He then proceeds to sanctify you so that you can indeed be just.
“For what other thing was capable of covering our sins than His righteousness? By what other one was it possible that we, the wicked and ungodly, could be justified, than by the only Son of God? O sweet exchange! O unsearchable operation! O benefits surpassing all expectation! that the wickedness of many should be hid in a single righteous One, and that the righteousness of One should justify many transgressors!” Letter of Mathetes to DiognetusNo matter which way you look at it it is faulty. This is why this difference between justification and sanctification is not found in the teachings of the Church until Luther came up with it.
Lutheran view is this of Sanctification:You are correct…salvation and sanctification is thru the grace of God.
Justification is not only a state but a continuing process…“if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to fogive us our sins and [continue to] cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” Santification is an ongoing process…thru the grace of God and the merits of Christ in and for our behalf. If one does not “walk the walk” one isn’t on the “walk”…forgiveness and cleansing is a prayer away…it’s not the words of the prayer…but the intent of the prayer…is there true repentance and a commitment to “walk in the Lord”…
I think you misunderstand Luther…and I’m sure a Lutheran can assist you…it was grace thru faith for Luther…but he never felt sanctification was not necessary…
Question…if sanctification and justification are available thru other means than by the grace and mercy of God…please explain.
So… we were created as holy beings, become corrupted by the ego, and then work toward returning to holiness?Humans become corrupt by association with the world of form, and association with the ego (which is an illusion).
How is the ego created?The ego is the child of the sense organs and the brain.
From your perspective, was Jesus closer to Hinduism or Judaism?“Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’"
Because salvation is not only about getting us into the presence of God, or getting us saved.
Lutheran view is this of Sanctification:
Because sin still clings even to those redeemed by Christ, the sanctified life is not a life of perfection. That is, sanctification will never be completed this side of heaven.
=benedictus2;8670691] I asked you the same question in another thread.
Would you agree, Cory, that if an infant, at the moment of Baptism were to die, that she would be justified before God? I would say yes.If we are justified and thus can go before the Presence of God once justified, what is the need for sanctification since justification is enough to get us before the Presence of God?
See above.But that’s just it. If we are justified (e.g. declared just by God then according to Lutheran theology we are therefore just). If the just can go before the presence of God then what’s all this about needing sanctification since the main objective is to be before the Presence fo God- i.e. heaven.
There is no split. I could ask the same question of you - it might be said an even bigger split - if it is infused righteousness.You see, this is exactly the problem with Lutheran theology, this split.
This is just a very quick reply. I will address all the other points tomorrow.Would you agree, Cory, that if an infant, at the moment of Baptism were to die, that she would be justified before God? I would say yes.
Benedictus,This is just a very quick reply. I will address all the other points tomorrow.
Yes, if the infant dies she will got to heaven because there is no such thing as a difference between justification and sanctification. At baptism one is justified/sanctified and it goes not just for infants but for adults as well. All the sins are gone. The person is a new creatoin. One is just because one has been made just by the power of sacrament.
Hi Stew: Again, I am only citing what people like myself believe, so I’m not challenging what anyone else wants or feels compelled to believe. Basically, yes, we are holy at our inmost level of being, which is what is commonly thought of as the soul in the West. Every soul or consciousness is part of the larger collective soul or consciousness. It would be like the energy from a power station. It might express as things like light bulbs in 25,000 different houses across a community, but at it’s source it is all the same energy. As for corruption, I don’t think that concept applies to how we would see it. It’s more like mislead, distracted or out of alignment. We never stop being holy or sacred. We belong to God and are part of Him, therefore we can’t be unholy or un-sacred.So… we were created as holy beings, become corrupted by the ego, and then work toward returning to holiness?
I think Jesus was very close to John the Baptist and John the Baptist was very dear to Him. In fact it is my opinion that John the Baptist is the only person who ever met Jesus who understood Jesus or what Jesus was talking about. Sadly for us, he was not around later to write letters to the Romans or Corinthians, and instead someone who never met Him, or (in my opinion) never really understood Him did. Back to the point, I am in agreement with those bible scholars who suspect that John The Baptist was no standard Jew, but more likely an Essene. I think Jesus was more like an Essene, which is in some ways like a Jew and in some ways like a Hindu. This makes sense of course to me, because He was God, and we all belong to the same God.From your perspective, was Jesus closer to Hinduism or Judaism?
You are regenerated (spiritually alive) and justified (declared righteous in the eyes of God) the moment you have faith and repent. You are also sanctified in a sense at this moment.Just curious - for those who have a fundamentalist view of John 5:24 ("…whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life…"), what role does sanctification play, if any? Am I sanctified the moment I believe, and thus ready to enter God’s Holy presence?
So a saved person could stand to lose this justified position before God?All of this comes through faith and repentance and continues only in a life of faith and repentance.
But it is lying because He declares us righteous while leaving us sinners. It is like he covers us with the sweet smelling cloak of Jesus Christ but inside we are the same rotting stench-filled miserable wretches. What, can’t He see beneath the cover?Not at all. It would be lying if God simply invented or made up a righteousness which does not exist. This is, however, not the case because it is predicated on a factual righteousness which exists in the Person of Christ. That righteousness is ours by virtue of our Baptism into His life, death, and resurrection.
If you are to take this literally, then it means that we are left sinners but are merely covered with the righteousness of Christ. So again, God lies to Himself because it seems Christ death has not capacity to regenerate us.“For what other thing was capable of covering our sins than His righteousness? By what other one was it possible that we, the wicked and ungodly, could be justified, than by the only Son of God? O sweet exchange! O unsearchable operation! O benefits surpassing all expectation! that the wickedness of many should be hid in a single righteous One, and that the righteousness of One should justify many transgressors!” Letter of Mathetes to Diognetus
I know what you are trying to get at but the split between justification and sanctification has nothing to do with that.Benedictus,
Is there any difference between the state of the infant and Saint Francis of Assisi in heaven? Is there a difference between Mary the Mother of God and Saint Francis in heaven. If there is what caused it?
Correct, forgiveness of sins wipes out sins. But that is not the same justification the way Luther understood it.Holiness or sanctity comes in degrees or capacities. When sin is taken away by mercy you are just.
I know all that and that stilll has nothing to do with the Lutheran split between justification and sanctification.That kind of takes you from being a debtor to having zero balance in your account. You owe nothing and have nothing. Sanctification is indeed a process, a growth process and the saints metaphorically have crowns, more or fewer. Mary is greater than Peter for example. Her level of sanctity is greater. But here in this life we grow in holiness through sanctification, or shrivel. Scripture declares Joseph a just man. That was long before his death.
At the same time the souls in heaven are perfect and perfectly or completely fulfilled with whatever glory or joy they know. Saint Therese had a good explanation. She said all the souls in heaven are completely happy or full. They are like different size glasses (metaphorically), each filled to its capacity and unable to hold any more. Each one’s joy is complete, but different. What determines that is the degree of sanctity or sanctification they attained here in this life.
And again, the degrees of sanctification is not what we are discussing here.If a baby dies and goes to heaven and a martyr for the faith dies, heaven is different for them. Both are just although both were sanctified differently.