Salvation lost

[JonNC]

=grandfather;9262617]

according to his personal bias.

Yes, all of them, most important a bias of linguistics.

He acted as one.

How? He never claimed or asked for a position of leadership - Bishop, or the like - within the Churches of the Augsburg Confession.

Think about that. You are saying Luther was right about this and wrong about that. All Protestants make up their own religion according to what they personally think is right according to their personal interpretation of scripture, Luther’s justification for divinding the Church.

Luther’s justification for dividing the Church? I would contend that Ronme was complicit via its corruption of that time. Yes, I am willing to say when Luther was wrong, just like you are willing to say that James Akin bugs you.

Jon, My unreliable opinion is that we are divided as punishment for our sins. There was nothing wrong with Catholic doctrine. There was moral corruption in the Church and Luther was scandalized by it. It goes on today. The greatest impediment that keeps souls from conversion is Christians who profess one thing and do another and I have to look at myself before I call anyone else a hypocrit.

My friend, mine unreliable opinion is that our division is a result of our sins. And while I affirm much of what your communion teaches, I agree with the rest of your statement. I always enjoy our exchanges, and wish you His peace.

Jon

 

[guanophore]

Hmmm…don’t agree with this one. The context is Paul talking about his ministry as an apostle, not salvation.

So, you think he will be rejected as an apostle? Or if not, what is he concerned might be “rejected”?

 

[guanophore]

A good friend of mine who believes in OSAS quotes frequently John 10:28-30:"28And I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of My hand.

29 My Father, who gave them to Me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of My Father’s hand.

30 I and My Father are one."(KJV)

He also says to look at Romans 8:38-39 and Eph. 4:30

Personally, given my mormon background, I do believe that salvation can be lost. I feel that you can turn away, fall into sin, but like the prodigal son(Luke 15:11-32) we can come back into fellowship with God, through faith, repentance, and the Eucharist.

Yes I have heard these used as well. But it does not account, as you say, for those who JUMP OUT of His hand. If we allow HIm to hold us, then we are safe in His hand, but if we stray from His hold…

 

[guanophore]

MY dispensationalist friend believes that once you accept Jesus even if you kill someone or die in unrepentant sin you can never lose your salvation. I tell him many passages say to persevere and endure to the end in faith and confess sin and repent of sin. It drives him nuts…

Do you use this one?

Rev 3:5-6
5 He who conquers shall be clad thus in white garments, and I will not blot his name out of the book of life; I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels. 6 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’

Why would Jesus speak of “not blot” if it were not possible to be blotted out?

 

[guanophore]

If somone could lose their salvation by sin, it would certianly be very important to know “WHAT SIN CAUSES US TO LOSE SALVATION”? I spoke with a very nice Catholic priest where i live and asked him the same questions. his reply was “There are two kinds of sin, Mortal and Viniel sin. Mortal sin causes us to be kicked out of the state of Sanctifiying Grace”

If mortal sin is the only kind of sin that can make us lose salvation, what kinds of sin or mortal?

This is a very good question.

There is an extensive article in the Catholic Encyclopediea

Who determins what is mortal sin and viniel sin?

God.

If it is man who determines the catagories of such sin where did they get it from?

It was revealed to man by God in Scripture and in Sacred Tradition.

It is very confusing to me…especially when i look at James 2:10 “For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.”

James is talking about the Law of Moses.

If we turn to the book of Acts 10:44 “While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.”
After Cornelius believe he recieved the Holy Spirit, then he was baptized in verse 48 of same chapter. Cornelius believed in the Lord recieve the Holy Spirit and then was baptized.

Does this passage add to your confusion about the nature of sin? Actually, I don’t think Cornelius was baptized in verse 48. I think it happened at his house.

If you turn to Acts 8:35-37 “Then Philip opended his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said,** If thou believest with all thine heart**, thou mayest, And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”
We know that the moment the enuich beleive in Jesus he recieved the Holy Spirit, then he was baptized.

Does this passage add to your confusion about the nature of sin?

So if the Holy Spirit enters a person when they believe in the Lord Jesus,(hold that thought)

Ephesians 4:30 states " And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption"
Praise the LORD!

Ephesians 1:13 states “In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise,”
Praise God! For his wonderful Grace and Mercy!

The “sealing” takes place at baptism.

So My question is then if we are SEALED by the Holy Spirit how could we lose our salvation?

This seal is like an indelible mark. It is like a tatoo. If someone gets a tatoo that signifies they belong to a certain group, then later decides to leave that group, the tatoo will no longer identify him as a member.

If we were to lose our salvation how would we get it back?
Hebrews 6:4-6 “**For it is impossible **for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.”

I am dumb as a rock, but it seems pretty simple to me.

The Apostles taught that we are working out our salvation throughout this life. If a person should fall from their faith, they can get back up and become grafted into the Vine again, up until the moment of death.

1 John 2:27 “But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.”

This passage was written to those who are in communion with the apostles, and their successors, the bishops. It does not apply to those who have left that communion.

Love you guys.

Love you too!

 

[grandfather]

Do you believe that the Spirit can move our understandings to a point of, not comproimise, but convergence?

 

[grandfather]

How? He never claimed or asked for a position of leadership - Bishop, or the like - within the Churches of the Augsburg Confession.

 

[Makko52]

This is a very good question.

There is an extensive article in the Catholic Encyclopediea

God.

It was revealed to man by God in Scripture and in Sacred Tradition.

James is talking about the Law of Moses.

Does this passage add to your confusion about the nature of sin? Actually, I don’t think Cornelius was baptized in verse 48. I think it happened at his house.

Does this passage add to your confusion about the nature of sin?

The “sealing” takes place at baptism.

This seal is like an indelible mark. It is like a tatoo. If someone gets a tatoo that signifies they belong to a certain group, then later decides to leave that group, the tatoo will no longer identify him as a member.

The Apostles taught that we are working out our salvation throughout this life. If a person should fall from their faith, they can get back up and become grafted into the Vine again, up until the moment of death.

This passage was written to those who are in communion with the apostles, and their successors, the bishops. It does not apply to those who have left that communion.

Love you too!

Thank You for your thoughts! It helps alot,but do you have any Scriputure to support it? i would very much like to see it. thank you:thumbsup:

 

[PRmerger]

Thank You for your thoughts! It helps alot,but do you have any Scriputure to support it? i would very much like to see it. thank you:thumbsup:

Scripture to support that we can lose our salvation?

What about these:
Heb. 7:27, 9:12,26;10:10; 1 Pet 3:18 - Jesus died once and redeemed us all, but we participate in the application of His redemption by the way in which we live.

Heb. 9:12 - Christ’s sacrifice secured our redemption, but redemption is not the same thing as salvation. We participate in and hope for salvation. Our hope in salvation is a guarantee if we are faithful to Christ to the end. But if we lose hope and fail to persevere, we can lose our salvation. Thus, by our own choosing (not by God’s doing), salvation is not a certainty. While many Protestant churches believe in the theology of “once saved, always saved,” such a novel theory is not found in Scripture and has never been taught by the Church.

Rom. 5:2 - we rejoice in the “hope” (not the presumptuous certainty) of sharing the glory of God. If salvation is absolutely assured after accepting Jesus as Savior, why would Paul hope?

Rom. 5:5 - this “hope” does not disappoint us, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit. Our hope is assured if we persevere to the end.

Rom. 8:24 - this “hope” of salvation that Paul writes about is unnecessary if salvation is guaranteed. If salvation is assured, then why hope?

Rom. 10:1 - Paul prays that the Jews “may be saved.” Why pray if it’s guaranteed? Further, why pray unless you can mediate?

Rom. 12:12 - rejoice in your “hope” (not your certainty), be patient in tribulation, and be constant in prayer.

2 Cor. 3:12 - since we have a “hope” (not a certainty), we are very bold. We can be bold when we are in God’s grace and our persevering in obedient faith.

Gal. 5:5 - for through the Spirit by faith we wait for the “hope” (not the certainty) of righteousness.

Eph. 1:18 - that you may know what is the “hope” to which He has called you, what are the riches of His glorious inheritance.

Eph. 4:4 - there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one “hope” (not the one certainty) that belongs to your call.

Eph. 6:10-17 – Paul instructs the Ephesians to take the whole armor of God, the breastplate of righteousness, and the helmet of salvation, in order “to stand,” lest they fall. Paul does not give any assurance that the spiritual battle is already won.

Phil. 3:11 - Paul shares Christ’s sufferings so that “if possible” he may attain resurrection. Paul does not view his own resurrection as a certainty.

Phil. 1:20 - as it is my eager expectation and “hope” (not certainty) that I shall not be at all ashamed before Christ.

Col. 1:5 - Paul refers to the “hope” (not guarantee) that Christ laid up for us in heaven.

Col. 1:23 - provided that you continue in the faith, not shifting from the “hope” of the gospel which you heard.

Col. 1:27 - to them God chose to make known His mystery, which is Christ in you, the “hope” (not the certainty) of His glory.

1 Thess. 1:3 - remembering before our God your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of “hope” in Jesus Christ.

1 Thess. 2:19 - for what is our “hope” or joy or crown of boasting before our Lord Jesus at his coming? Is it not you?

1 Thess. 5:8 - we must put on the helmet of “hope” (not of certainty) of salvation.

2 Thess. 2:16 - the Lord Jesus and God our Father who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good “hope” through grace.

cont’d

 

[PRmerger]

Thank You for your thoughts! It helps alot,but do you have any Scriputure to support it? i would very much like to see it. thank you:thumbsup:

cont’d

1 Tim. 1:1 - Paul describes Christ Jesus as our “hope” (not our guarantee). We can reject Him and He will allow this.

1 Tim. 4:10 - Paul says we toil and strive because we have our “hope” (not our assurance) on the living God. This is not because God is unfaithful, but because we can be unfaithful. We toil and strive for our salvation.

1 Tim. 5:5 - she who is a real widow, and is left all alone, has set her “hope” (not her assurance) on God. Our hope is a guarantee only if we persevere to the end.

1 Tim. 5:15 – Paul writes that some have already strayed after satan, as God Himself tells us in 1 Tim. 4:1. They were on the right path, and then strayed off of it.

2 Tim. 2:10 - Paul endures for the elect so that they “may also obtain salvation.” This verse teaches us that even the "elect,” from the standpoint of human knowledge, have no guarantee of salvation.

Titus 1:2 - Paul says that he is in the “hope” (not the certainty) of eternal life. Paul knows that his hope is a guarantee if he perseveres, but his ability to choose sin over God makes his attainment of eternal life less than an absolute certainty until it is actually achieved.

Titus 2:13 - awaiting our blessed “hope,” the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.

Titus 3:7 - Paul says we have been given the Spirit so we might become heirs in the “hope” (not the certainty) of eternal life.

Heb. 3:6 - we are Christ’s house if we hold fast our confidence and pride in our “hope” (not our certainty).

Heb. 6:11 - we desire each one of you to show the same earnestness in realizing the full assurance of “hope” (not certainty) until the end.

Heb. 6:18 - we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to seize the “hope” (not the certainty) that is set before us.

Heb. 6:19 - we have a “hope” that enters into the inner shrine behind the curtain, where Jesus has gone before us.

Heb. 7:19 - on the other hand, a better “hope” (not certainty) is introduced, through which we draw near to God.

Heb. 10:23 - let us hold fast the confession of our “hope” without wavering, for He who promised is faithful.

Heb. 11:1 - now faith is the assurance of things “hoped” for (not guaranteed), the conviction of things not seen (heaven).

Heb. 12:1 – let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us.

Heb. 12:15 – see to it that no one fail to obtain the grace of God; that no root of bitterness spring up and cause trouble, and by it many become defiled.

James 1:12 - we must endure trial and withstand the test in order to receive the crown of life. It is not guaranteed.

1 Peter 1:3 - by His mercy we have been born anew to a living “hope” through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.

1 Peter 1:13 - set your “hope” (not assurance) fully upon the grace that is coming to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 1:21 - through Him you have confidence in God, who raised him from the dead so that your faith and “hope” are in God.

1 Peter 2:2 - like newborn babes, long for spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up to salvation. How can you grow up to something you already possess?

1 Peter 3:15 - always be prepared to make a defense to anyone who calls you to account for the “hope” that is in you.

1 John 3:3 - and everyone who thus “hopes” in Him purifies himself as He is pure. These verses teach us that we must cooperate with God’s grace and persevere to the end to be saved. We can and do have a moral certitude of salvation if we persevere in faith, hope and love. source