Salvation & Marriage: Why the Double Standard?

[Hildebrand]

RonRule:

So if I commit adultery (& die w/o confession), I am a husband that goes to hell.

The problem with this… wasn’t Jesus opposed to divorce? And therefore as Christians we ought to be opposed to divorce and view marriage as a life commitment.

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With the sinning, confession, hell part of the question:

The Act of Perfect Contrition

http://www.truecatholic.org/contrition.htm

 

[KnightErrantJR]

I guess I really don’t get where you are coming from Ron. If you do not beleive that marriage is for life, than you are not commiting to Christian marriage. That is a matter of definition. If you do not seek absolution for your sins and a reconciliation with the will of Christ, then you are actively denying your place in heaven. I don’t really see how one contradicts the other.

And if you were truly sorry for your sin and had no oppourtunity to confess your sins before you died, you wouldn’t be a “husband that went to Hell.”

 

[RonRule]

Hildebrand:

The problem with this… wasn’t Jesus opposed to divorce? And therefore as Christians we ought to be opposed to divorce and view marriage as a life commitment.

I think you’re misunderstanding me. I don’t have a problem with the church’s view on divorce. I am just trying to understand what I see as a disconnect: why marriage is strong bond that cannot be broken by free will, and salvation is a weaker bond that can be broken by free will at any given moment.

Many catholics main argument against eternal security is simply “cause of Free Will!” I think that this is a weak argument considering the church’s stand on the indissolubility of marriage and annulment (which is similar to calvinists saying if someone commits grave sins, they were never regenerate to begin with).

 

[KnightErrantJR]

I really think there is a disconnect on what we are saying to each other. Maybe its something similar to what I have heard some protestants say about how a church isn’t holy without the people conducting worship within. To us a church is sacred, BECAUSE it is what we use for worship.

Similarly, marriage is what it is, wheather we enter into the institution or not. The definition of what marriage is is completely separate from those who choose (with free will) to enter into it. It is an institution, and to us a sacrament, and if we understand what that sacrament means, and we enter into it, we have no excuse if we end up breaking our vows.

In other words, the definition of marriage does not change just becuase you choose to not follow the definition. I fact, let me use your analogy. Salvation is a specific thing that has a specific definition. It is the means by which Christ sacrificed himself for us to that we can enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, so long as we ask for forgiveness and do our best to not fall into sin again.

Salvation doensn’t change its definition any. We are saved if we ask for forgiveness and from that point on seek to not sin again. When we willfully decided that some sins are kinda fun so we’ll keep doing them, or we decide we can always willfully comit a sin as long as at some point in the future we make sure to ask for forgiveness, we are no longer in accordance with the definition of Salvation, but that doesn’t change the definition of Salvation.

We know we are human and will sin again, but we can’t maintain the grace we recieve from the blood of Christ if we intentionally decided that we KNOW we are saved so it doesn’t matter if we sin once in a while.

 

[ChrisR246]

RonRule:

I’m not doing this to make fun. I’m just trying to show that some arguments catholics use against eternal security can also be used against marriage.

God bless.

But you are comparing apples and oranges. Baptism and Marriage are Sacraments, Salvation is not. You seem to keep freely interchanging Baptism for Salvation, when that is not at all accurate. They are separate things.

I am just trying to understand what I see as a disconnect: why marriage is strong bond that cannot be broken by free will, and salvation is a weaker bond that can be broken by free will at any given moment.

I’m sorry, but the disconnect is at your end. Marriage and Baptism are permanent and can not be undone. Salvation is not Baptism.

If you would stop freely substituting Salvation for Baptism and vice versa, it would be more clear.

 

[RonRule]

ChrisR246:

But you are comparing apples and oranges. Baptism and Marriage are Sacraments, Salvation is not. You seem to keep freely interchanging Baptism for Salvation, when that is not at all accurate. They are separate things.

I’m sorry, but the disconnect is at your end. Marriage and Baptism are permanent and can not be undone. Salvation is not Baptism.

If you would stop freely substituting Salvation for Baptism and vice versa, it would be more clear.

Sorry for using those terms interchangeably. I didn’t mean to and it just kinda developed as the conversation progressed. I am no expert on catholic theology/doctrine and am seriouly trying to learn here. However I did think that Baptism and Confirmation, as sacraments, were pretty darn wrapped up in the idea of salvation, especially in catholicism.

Ok, so we’ve established that, as sacraments neither baptism nor marriage can be dissolved.

Now, to really stretch our metaphor: how is salvation related to baptism? Is it the fruit of baptism?

Salvation is to baptism what children & family are to marriage? (Just a thought)

 

[Hildebrand]

RonRule:

I think you’re misunderstanding me. I don’t have a problem with the church’s view on divorce. I am just trying to understand what I see as a disconnect: why marriage is strong bond that cannot be broken by free will, and salvation is a weaker bond that can be broken by free will at any given moment.

I did not misunderstood you. But, marriage was made by God to be preminent. If you have a problem with it, take it up with God, that is how God intended it to be.

So if we are “saved”, we can ignore Christ’s command to love God and love our neighbor as ourselves, and ignore the other commandments by God?

If Jeffrey Dahmer was “saved” as a young teen by accepting Jesus Christ as his personal savior, he could never break that bond of salvation by free will at any given moment?

 

[RonRule]

No One:

If Ron Jeremy was “married” as a teen by saying “I do” in front of a priest, he could never break that bond of marriage by free will (willy?) at any given moment?

Hildebrand, I changed “saved” to “married” for this quote to make my point.

Now the best answer I’ve gotten seems to be of a definitional nature: “The church says marriage is a sacrament and cannot be disolved. But salvation is not a sacrament and the church says it can be dissolved by our free will” That may be the best answer I get.

If God brings me to the Catholic church, it is her answers I will accept. If God does not bring the to the CC, I will have a good way to explain how fundies can believe in eternal security, because it is very similar to the CC’s indissolubility of marriage.

 

[E.E.N.S]

RonRule:

Hildebrand, I changed “saved” to “married” for this quote to make my point.

Now the best answer I’ve gotten seems to be of a definitional nature: “The church says marriage is a sacrament and cannot be disolved. But salvation is not a sacrament and the church says it can be dissolved by our free will” That may be the best answer I get.

If God brings me to the Catholic church, it is her answers I will accept. If God does not bring the to the CC, I will have a good way to explain how fundies can believe in eternal security, because it is very similar to the CC’s indissolubility of marriage.

I will pray that you do hear the call - as God is always calling us to be closer to Him (and there is no more intimate relationship with Jesus than when receiving His Body and Blood into our very being through the most holy sacrament of the altar, the Eucharist!)

God bless brother.

 

[ChrisR246]

RonRule:

Sorry for using those terms interchangeably. I didn’t mean to and it just kinda developed as the conversation progressed.

s’alright. :tiphat:

However I did think that Baptism and Confirmation, as sacraments, were pretty darn wrapped up in the idea of salvation, especially in catholicism.

Sure, these, as well as the other 5, all provide Grace that brings us to Salvation.

Ok, so we’ve established that, as sacraments neither baptism nor marriage can be dissolved.

Neither can Holy Orders, nor Confirmation, in the sense you seem to mean in this thread. Actually, as I think about it, none of them can be “taken back” or"undone" One can’t say “I want to give back the Holy Eucharist I received yesterday” or “I want to give back the absolution I received at Confession last month” or “Undo the anointing I got last year when I was sick”. It just can’t happen.

Now, to really stretch our metaphor: how is salvation related to baptism? Is it the fruit of baptism?

Salvation is to baptism what children & family are to marriage? (Just a thought)

I think Salvation is the eventual result of all the sacraments. The fruit of Baptism is the removal of oiginal Sin and initiation into God’s Family. The fruits of Marriage are spousal love and children.

 

[petra]

RonRule:

Sorry for using those terms interchangeably. I didn’t mean to and it just kinda developed as the conversation progressed. I am no expert on catholic theology/doctrine and am seriouly trying to learn here. However I did think that Baptism and Confirmation, as sacraments, were pretty darn wrapped up in the idea of salvation, especially in catholicism.

Ok, so we’ve established that, as sacraments neither baptism nor marriage can be dissolved.

Now, to really stretch our metaphor: how is salvation related to baptism? Is it the fruit of baptism?

Salvation is to baptism what children & family are to marriage? (Just a thought)

A previous poster made a point that I was pondering. To clarify this, Ron, we are actually talking about convenants, which are permanent. Depending upon how the parties behave, there may be blessings (salvation) or curses (eternal separation) associated with that covenent. Salvation is a covenant blessing, rather than a covenant itself. In this context, the covenant is the work of Christ and His offer to humanity.

 

[Pug]

I think you could say that marriage can be broken by a grievous offense. You could kill your spouse (hypothetical only!..DO NOT kill your spouse!). I don’t think you are considered to be married at that point. However, this skates toward creating a canonical impediment to marrying again, among other things.

A OSAS person cannot escape salvation by killing themselves or someone else.

Just a bizarre thought.