salvation of Jews

[ElisabethM]

The following statement is from my son’s 8th grade religion text, Religions of the World:

Jews do not need to become Catholic to be saved. Jews who adhere to their covenant with God are in line with God’s plans for them (CCC, 839). The Catholic Church no longer has an organized missionary program to convert Jews.

I’d like to hear comments on this. Is this saying we are to just leave the Jews (and BTW who is a Jew?) alone because they’re already saved by virtue of the the irrevocable covenant God made with their ancestors?

Thanks!
em

 

[Mark77]

Here’s what the Catechism says;

"The Church and non-Christians

839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."325

The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God’s revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews “belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ”,328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329 " (CCC 839).

A recent article quotes Pope Benedict XVI;

In his new book—the 2nd volume of his work Jesus of Nazareth—Pope Benedict XVI writes that Catholics should not seek the incorporation of the Jewish people into the Church.

**“Israel is in the hands of God, who will save it ‘as a whole’ at the proper time, when the number of Gentiles is full,” the pope writes. He says that Christians should “wait for the time fixed for this by God” rather than attempting to convert the Jewish people.

While the Pope affirms that salvation only comes through Jesus Christ, he argues that the mission of the Church is primarily to the Gentiles, and cites the belief of St. Bernard that God will bring Jews into the fold at a time “that cannot be anticipated.”
**
catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=9579

Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!

mark

 

[Robbinson]

The following statement is from my son’s 8th grade religion text, Religions of the World:

I’d like to hear comments on this. Is this saying we are to just leave the Jews (and BTW who is a Jew?) alone because they’re already saved by virtue of the the irrevocable covenant God made with their ancestors?

Thanks!
em

This is, I believe, an errant and heritcal teaching - I’m shocked its in a Catholic text book. This is referred to as Dual Covenant Theology - yet scripture clearly shows us that (i) salvation comes through Christ, (ii) the gospel is to be preached to all creation (and in fact, to the jew first and then the Gentile) and (iii) there is no distrinction between Jew or Gentile in Christ. If this teaching was correct we would have no Church as Peter and all 12 of the apostles where Jews who heard and responded to the gospel! Furthermore, well after the death of Christ, Paul continued to preach to not only the Gentiles, but the Jews, as did Peter and the apostles and Paul talks in Romans 11 of Jews who can be grafted into the rootstock through “belief” (belief in the gospel) though they have been broken off now through unbelief. So he was envisioning a coming to faith in Christ, not a salvation without Christ.

The Pope’s new book (quoted in the reply above) has some ambiguous language - but I don’t believe there he is suggesting salvation other than through Christ - rather, he is, I believe, referring to the prophecy in Romans 11 that says "after the full alotment of Gentiles comes in, “all Israel will be saved”). I believe (harmonizing these words with the rest of scripture, rather than reading them in isolation) this is referring to the corporal wide response of Jews (which will include the lost 10 tribes of Israel who disappeared into the Gentile nations) who are brought to the gospel with the “Gentiles” as a result of the spreadnig of the gospel to the Gentiles.

When Israel, in large part (but not entirely) rejected the gospel, then the gospel was spread to the Gentiles (to fulfill the Old Testament prophecy that the Messiah would be rejected by his own people and become a light to the Gentile nations).

Jesus said, that if we love him, we will follow his commandments - and those commandments expressly included sharing the gospel with “all” - not excluding the Jewish people.

As a Jewish believer - my spiritual life would have remained unfufilled and I would have been deprived the loving and intimate relationship I now have with Yeshua, Jesus, had the gospel not been shared with me. Blessed are those who share the truth so that God’s Holy Spirit can do its work in fertile soil.

Blessings,

Brian

 

[Sean_Conerly]

I have heard of a group called “Jews for Jesus”. I was approached by a few people from the group when visiting DC. From what I could gather from talking to them they are Jews who have accepted Christ as the Messiah and encouraged others Jews to do the same. They seemed like very nice people. I’m not completely aware of all the facets of that, but I liked the idea.

 

[mdrummer5]

I have heard of a group called “Jews for Jesus”. I was approached by a few people from the group when visiting DC. From what I could gather from talking to them they are Jews who have accepted Christ as the Messiah and encouraged others Jews to do the same. They seemed like very nice people. I’m not completely aware of all the facets of that, but I liked the idea.

I still find this very odd… I don’t see anything wrong with it but once a person adopts the belief that Jesus was the Messiah they pretty much have to cease being Jewish since Jews do NOT believe that Jesus was the Messiah… sure it’s only a matter of semantics and that’s why as I said I don’t see anything wrong with it… just odd lol.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Here’s what the Catechism says;

"The Church and non-Christians

839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."325

This does not mean the we should not evangelize the Jews. What the Church means by “related to the People of God in various ways” should be interpreted in the context of the footnotes to Lumen Gentium, no. 16, which the CCC cites, which I’ve included and discussed here.

We are called upon to evangelize all people, including the Jews. Pope Benedict XVI has taught nothing to the contrary. “the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men” (CCC 848)

According to Dominus Iesus:

“solutions that propose a salvific action of God beyond the unique mediation of Christ would be contrary to Christian and Catholic faith.

The Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith makes clear:

“Every person has the right to hear the ‘Good News’ of the God who reveals and gives himself in Christ, so that each one can live out in its fullness his or her proper calling”. [5] It a right which the Lord himself confers on every person, so that every man and woman is able truly to say with Saint Paul: Jesus Christ “loved me and gave himself up for me” (Gal 2:20). This right implies the corresponding duty to evangelize: “If I preach the Gospel, this is no reason for me to boast; it is a duty for me. Woe to me if I do not preach the Gospel!” (1 Cor 9:16; cf. Rom 10:14). Thus, it is evident how every activity of the Church has an essential evangelizing dimension and must never be separated from the commitment to help all persons to meet Christ in faith, which is the primary objective of evangelization

(5) John Paul II, Encyclical Letter Redemptoris missio, 46: AAS 83 (1991), 293; cf. Paul VI, Apostolic Exhortation* Evangelii nuntiandi*, 53 and 80: AAS 69 (1976), 41-42, 73-74.]

“…There is today, however, a growing confusion which leads many to leave the missionary command of the Lord unheard and ineffective (cf. Mt 28:19). Often it is maintained that any attempt to convince others on religious matters is a limitation of their freedom. From this perspective, it would only be legitimate to present one’s own ideas and to invite people to act according to their consciences, without aiming at their conversion to Christ and to the Catholic faith. It is enough, so they say, to help people to become more human or more faithful to their own religion; it is enough to build communities which strive for justice, freedom, peace and solidarity. Furthermore, some maintain that Christ should not be proclaimed to those who do not know him, nor should joining the Church be promoted, since it would also be possible to be saved without explicit knowledge of Christ and without formal incorporation in the Church.”

[Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, *Doctrinal Note on Evangelization

]

Pope John Paul II taught:

[It is said] that Christians renounce guiding non-Christians to the way of the Gospel, refrain from proposing or encouraging conversion, and exclude the prospect of Baptism. Thus the way of salvation followed by each according to his own education and religious background would be respected (cf. RM 4).

But such a concept appears incompatible with Christ’s mandate to the apostles (cf. Mt 28:19-20; Mk 16:15) handed down to the Church, and with the authentic ecclesiology to which the Second Vatican Council referred in order to show the obvious need for missionary activity. It is a question of several basic truths. God desires salvation for all. Jesus Christ is the “only Mediator,” the one who “gave himself as a ransom for all” (1 Tim 2:5), since “neither is there salvation in any other” (Acts 4:12). “***All must be converted to him, made known by the Church’s preaching, and all must be incorporated into him by baptism and into the Church which is his body. For Christ himself by stressing in express language the necessity of faith and baptism (cf. Mk 16:16; Jn 3:5), at the same time confirmed the necessity of the Church” (AG 7)… ***The Church’s traditional teaching illustrates the inconsistency and superficiality of a relativist and irenic attitude regarding the way of salvation in a religion different from that based on faith in Christ…one cannot, in the name of these ways, slow down or abandon missionary activity… missionary activity today as always retains its power and necessity" (AG 7). [General Audience, May 10, 1995]

Pope Paul VI, in his papal encyclical devoted to evangelization (Evangelii Nuntiandi, 1975), stated

In the Church’s evangelizing activity there are of course certain elements and aspects to be specially insisted on. Some of them are so important that there will be a tendency simply to identify them with evangelization. Thus it has been possible to define evangelization in terms of proclaiming Christ to those who do not know Him, of preaching, of catechesis, of conferring Baptism and the other sacraments.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

I still find this very odd… I don’t see anything wrong with it but once a person adopts the belief that Jesus was the Messiah they pretty much have to cease being Jewish since Jews do NOT believe that Jesus was the Messiah… sure it’s only a matter of semantics and that’s why as I said I don’t see anything wrong with it… just odd lol.

I don’t see that they should cease being Jewish, but instead see that they become authentically Jewish, in the way the our Blessed Mother was authentically Jewish by her faith in her son, Jesus Christ.

 

[Barbkw]

The Catholic Church no longer has an organized missionary program to convert Jews.

We HAD an organized missionary program?

 

[Auriel]

I don’t see that they should cease being Jewish, but instead see that they become authentically Jewish, in the way the our Blessed Mother was authentically Jewish by her faith in her son, Jesus Christ.

I’ve heard Orthodox Jews call Jews for Jesus, “Hebrew Christians”, if they were Jewish by birth. Not all in that group are.

But I’ve also heard an orthodox Rabbi tell a good friend of mine who discovered her own Jewish roots that it did not matter if she was an atheist, agnostic, christian, joined a cult, or denied her roots. Her soul was Jewish and would always be Jewish. Nothing could change that.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

We HAD an organized missionary program?

Well, our parish RCIA program (unlike others I’ve been associated with) is somewhat organized. And indeed, one of our recent candidates was a convert from Judaism. We still evanglize to all people, including Jews, teaching them why baptism is important, and indeed urgent.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

The following statement is from my son’s 8th grade religion text, Religions of the World…

Is this a Catholic school? If so, does the text have an Imprimatur? I recommend pointing out the teaching of this text to your diocesan bishop. It’s contrary to Catholic doctrine.

 

[Catherine_k]

I’ve heard Orthodox Jews call Jews for Jesus, “Hebrew Christians”, if they were Jewish by birth. Not all in that group are.

But I’ve also heard an orthodox Rabbi tell a good friend of mine who discovered her own Jewish roots that it did not matter if she was an atheist, agnostic, christian, joined a cult, or denied her roots. Her soul was Jewish and would always be Jewish. Nothing could change that.

There are many things about the Jews for Jesus movement that bothers me. First, its origins (it is sponsored by protestant churches in the US). Its theology is somewhat suspect. Second, as a movement it is somewhat dishonest (based on prior exposure to them). Auriel is right that not all in that group were born Jewish.

As a convert FROM Judaism, I too learned that born a Jew (of a Jewish mother) and possessed of a Jewish Soul, always a Jew. The different is, that as a practicing Catholic, I’ve abrogated my rights as a Jew within the Jewish community (under Jewish law). So I’m in a weird category: those in my family and from my childhood who are Jewish consider me Jewish (if a heretic) and yet I am a member of the Church.

Nostra Aetate is a fascinating document.

 

[patrick457]

A recent article quotes Pope Benedict XVI;

In his new book—the 2nd volume of his work Jesus of Nazareth—Pope Benedict XVI writes that Catholics should not seek the incorporation of the Jewish people into the Church.

**“Israel is in the hands of God, who will save it ‘as a whole’ at the proper time, when the number of Gentiles is full,” the pope writes. He says that Christians should “wait for the time fixed for this by God” rather than attempting to convert the Jewish people.

While the Pope affirms that salvation only comes through Jesus Christ, he argues that the mission of the Church is primarily to the Gentiles, and cites the belief of St. Bernard that God will bring Jews into the fold at a time “that cannot be anticipated.”
**
catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=9579

Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!

mark

Jimmy Akin sure comes in handy here.

The beginning of the discussion (which is not usually quoted by people commenting on the text) is this. Starting on p. 44 of the book, Pope Benedict writes:

At this point we encounter once again the connection between the Gospel tradition and the basic elements of Pauline theology. If Jesus says in the eschatological discourse that the Gospel must first be proclaimed to the Gentiles and only then can the end come, we find exactly the same thing in Paul’s Letter to the Romans: “A hardening has come upon part of Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles come in, and so all Israel will be saved” (11:25–26).

The full number of the Gentiles and all Israel: in this formula we see the universalism of the divine salvific will. For our purposes, though, the important point is that Paul, too, recognizes an age of the Gentiles, which is the present and which must be fulfilled if God’s plan is to attain its goal.

So Pope Benedict is contemplating the two-stages of phases of history that precede the end of the world. First, there are what Our Lord refers to as “the times of the gentiles,” in which the gospel is preached to all nations and the gentiles are given the chance to convert, and then the second stage in which the partial hardness that has come upon Israel is removed and so “all Israel will be saved”–a reference to a corporate conversion of the Jewish people at the end of history.

Note how this viewpoint differs from two rival viewpoints: First, it differs from the “Jews don’t need Jesus, they have their own covenant” perspective. This idea, which has been trendy is some Catholic circles of late, is manifestly contrary to the teaching of the New Testament and to the historic teaching of the Church’s magisterium. It also is not what Pope Benedict is advocating here. He is not saying that Jews don’t need Jesus or that they don’t need to become Christians. He is saying that they will corporately convert to Christ, but not until the end of time. Prior to that point, individual Jews may become Christians–as with the apostles and the very first Christians and with other converts from Judaism down through history. But the full, corporate conversion of Israel (which even then might not involve every single individual without exception) is something to be found only at the end of the world.

Secondly, the viewpoint that the pope is articulating is different than the “Jews don’t matter any more; they don’t have any special relationship with God or mission; their role has been completely supplanted by the Church and they have no further special significance.” Again, this position is contrary to the New Testament, which ascribes an ongoing special place for the Jewish people in God’s plan (as illustrated by the end of the world being contingent on their corporate conversion), and it is not the viewpoint that Pope Benedict is articulating. He recognizes, as we will see him say even more explicitly in a moment, that the Jewish people has a special and ongoing mission.​

 

[meltzerboy]

The following statement is from my son’s 8th grade religion text, Religions of the World:

I’d like to hear comments on this. Is this saying we are to just leave the Jews (and BTW who is a Jew?) alone because they’re already saved by virtue of the the irrevocable covenant God made with their ancestors?

Thanks!
em

By definition, a Jew is one born of a Jewish mother or a convert to Judaism who went through the PROPER conversion procedure with an Orthodox Rabbi. The latter requirement is according to Torah (Orthodox) Judaism. If a Jew converts to another religion, I’m not certain they completely lose their status as a Jew. In other words, although I’ve heard of “being cut off” from Judaism in this way, it may not be entirely the case. (An Orthodox Jew would know the answer to this.) I do know a Jew may consider themselves an atheist, but in the eyes of the Law they remain a Jew and are still obligated to fulfill the commandments of the Law, just as a Reform Jew or Conservative Jew are according to Torah Judaism. I’ll leave it to Catholics on the forum to answer your other question.

 

[meltzerboy]

There are many things about the Jews for Jesus movement that bothers me. First, its origins (it is sponsored by protestant churches in the US). Its theology is somewhat suspect. Second, as a movement it is somewhat dishonest (based on prior exposure to them). Auriel is right that not all in that group were born Jewish.

As a convert FROM Judaism, I too learned that born a Jew (of a Jewish mother) and possessed of a Jewish Soul, always a Jew. The different is, that as a practicing Catholic, I’ve abrogated my rights as a Jew within the Jewish community (under Jewish law). So I’m in a weird category: those in my family and from my childhood who are Jewish consider me Jewish (if a heretic) and yet I am a member of the Church.

Nostra Aetate is a fascinating document.

A sizable number of Orthodox Jews consider Conservative Jews and especially Reform Jews as heretics, so you’re in good company!

 

[meltzerboy]

I don’t see that they should cease being Jewish, but instead see that they become authentically Jewish, in the way the our Blessed Mother was authentically Jewish by her faith in her son, Jesus Christ.

They do not become authentically Jewish according to Torah Judaism. Among the thirteen principles of Jewish faith, as set by Maimonides, is the belief in G-d as a non-corporeal Unity of Spirit and unlike any other unity. Jews do not believe that the Messiah was ever intended to be G-d or the son of G-d. It would be like saying to a Catholic that s/he can become authentically Catholic by thinking of Jesus as an entirely separate human entity from G-d rather than completely Human and completely Divine.

 

[Robbinson]

They do not become authentically Jewish according to Torah Judaism. Among the thirteen principles of Jewish faith, as set by Maimonides, is the belief in G-d as a non-corporeal Unity of Spirit and unlike any other unity. Jews do not believe that the Messiah was ever intended to be G-d or the son of G-d. It would be like saying to a Catholic that s/he can become authentically Catholic by thinking of Jesus as an entirely separate human entity from G-d rather than completely Human and completely Divine.

According to Talmudic/Rabbinic Judaism, this is correct (as you note Maimonides statement). However, in the Torah God appeared as a man to Abraham (3 men appeared - two later revealed to be angels, one the Lord). So while God is Spirit (his spirt hovered over the waters, he is also plural (Let “us” make man in “our” image) and Christians believe, also appeared in the form of the Messiah Jesus (certainly not an impossibility even within Judaism as most Jews would ultimately acknowledge that nothing is impossible for God).

As to Jewish expectation for the messiah, actually there are many portraits and attributes of the messiah within the scriptures and the Talmud (and even more still if you look to the Zohar (jewish book of mystisim - kabalah) including some elements which could “suggest” divinity (e.g., existing from the beginning of time).

I am a Jewish Catholic - Hebrew Catholic, or just Catholic - its ultimately a label, but I am a paternal and maternal descendant of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob - making me an Israelite, per the scriptures, and while my baptism (as an adult) (I was raised in the Jewish) would disqualify me as a Jew under the rabbinic law of return in Israel, in God’s eyes, I remain part of Israel (just like Peter and the 12 apostles) - but there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile in Christ - we are “echad” (one) in Yeshua.

Blessings.

Brian

 

[meltzerboy]

According to Talmudic/Rabbinic Judaism, this is correct (as you note Maimonides statement). However, in the Torah God appeared as a man to Abraham (3 men appeared - two later revealed to be angels, one the Lord). So while God is Spirit (his spirt hovered over the waters, he is also plural (Let “us” make man in “our” image) and Christians believe, also appeared in the form of the Messiah Jesus (certainly not an impossibility even within Judaism as most Jews would ultimately acknowledge that nothing is impossible for God).

As to Jewish expectation for the messiah, actually there are many portraits and attributes of the messiah within the scriptures and the Talmud (and even more still if you look to the Zohar (jewish book of mystisim - kabalah) including some elements which could “suggest” divinity (e.g., existing from the beginning of time).

I am a Jewish Catholic - Hebrew Catholic, or just Catholic - its ultimately a label, but I am a paternal and maternal descendant of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob - making me an Israelite, per the scriptures, and while my baptism (as an adult) (I was raised in the Jewish) would disqualify me as a Jew under the rabbinic law of return in Israel, in God’s eyes, I remain part of Israel (just like Peter and the 12 apostles) - but there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile in Christ - we are “echad” (one) in Yeshua.

Blessings.

Brian

There are several other explanations given by Torah scholars for the Genesis account use of the plural that you quote. I learned about these on the Orthodox Jewish Forum. Most of the interpretive discrepancies are a result of poor translations of the Hebrew text, for example, with regard to present vs. past tense (not a tense issue in this case, however), as well as citing text out of context, a huge problem. The Zohar that you refer to is an old proof-text argument that also does not hold up to scholarly scrutiny. There are certain things that Judaism acknowledges are impossible for G-d, such as being sinful or evil. But I understand your point: that G-d COULD appear as a man or woman if G-d willed it. This still, however, does not contradict the Jewish account of the meaning and nature of the Messiah. And that’s about all I’ll say before being accused of proselytizing!

 

[Robbinson]

There are several other explanations given by Torah scholars for the Genesis account use of the plural that you quote. I learned about these on the Orthodox Jewish Forum. Most of the interpretive discrepancies are a result of poor translations of the Hebrew text, for example, with regard to present vs. past tense (not a tense issue in this case, however), as well as citing text out of context, a huge problem. The Zohar that you refer to is an old proof-text argument that also does not hold up to scholarly scrutiny. There are certain things that Judaism acknowledges are impossible for G-d, such as being sinful or evil. But I understand your point: that G-d COULD appear as a man or woman if G-d willed it. This still, however, does not contradict the Jewish account of the meaning and nature of the Messiah. And that’s about all I’ll say before being accused of proselytizing!

Fair enough - (although, the “plural” of Eloheim isn’t a translation issue). Blessings, brother - and thanks for the post.

Brian

 

[Doxiemom]

Any Jew who is interested will seek the information and any Christian should give it to them, as any other person. Sensitivity and with love this should be discussed because the Jew will always be a jew, even if he is aethist, secular, or orthodox. There IS a reason why God chose them alone.

But from the Christian side, we must understand that there has been a remnant prepared to see the coming of Messiah and these 144,000 play a vital role during the time of Tribulation. They will be sealed and protected by God.

Therefore, it is said that were blinded and made deaf for a purpose that God has for them. Who are we to argue with God’s plan.?

The Old Covenant was a Blood Covenant which means that , though the Jewish people may break it, God said He will NEVER break it,… never means never. Torah Jews are still covered by this. We were not. We needed a Christ to die. And live again.

Who is a jew? They are those who descended from Issac. Not one single gentile has ever, nor will ever, replace the Jews as God’s Chosen.

Interestingly, though, the “church”( those who are saved) is the Bride of the Bridegroom Who is Jesus. But the jews are referred to as the Wife of God, the Almighty.