Salvation of non-Christians post Vatican II

[rcwitness]

rcwitness:

Right. So to say, a sincere Narural Law abiding person happens to come to the conclusion that there is no such thing as the Creator, Eternal Spirit, Supreme God, etc., then how is that “sincerely seeking God”?

Invincible ignorance could come into play here. This is where we are getting into the “in God’s hands” category.

I agree. But why does the Gospel message about Jesus hold so much conviction, while the conviction of the Natural Law about the Creator have less?

If Paul says “they are without excuse”

Romans 1
For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse; for although they knew God they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking and their senseless minds were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools

 

[May1980]

I have a hard time believing God would create us (and he loves us) only to send a bunch of people to hell for not believing certain things. I think if He came down from the sky right now and revealed Himself to any person who doesn’t believe in God, for example, that person would believe! Surely God understands human nature. It is HARD when all we know is this world.
And where do you draw the line about who is saved? Where does God? Soooo many people who do awful things are mentally ill. They were CREATED that way, so I can’t see how God would fault them and send them to hell. I trust in His mercy.

 

[ajcstr]

If Paul says “they are without excuse”

I think that applies to all gentiles - Paul is describing all gentiles as idolators in that sense because they have replaced God with worldly idols. But then says they may still seek the natural law.

 

[rcwitness]

rcwitness:

If Paul says “they are without excuse”

I think that applies to all gentiles - Paul is describing all gentiles as idolators in that sense because they have replaced God with worldly idols. But then says they may still seek the natural law.

Does Natural Law not convict man of the Creator?

 

[ajcstr]

And where do you draw the line about who is saved? Where does God? Soooo many people who do awful things are mentally ill. They were CREATED that way, so I can’t see how God would fault them and send them to hell. I trust in His mercy.

Agreed, we CAN’T know. I’m looking at it more from a geeky academic point of view trying to reconcile how the Church seems to teach against works righteousness for Catholics but for works righteousness for non-Christians.

I think this is also the confusion when you hear non-Catholics accuse the Pope of being a universalist.

Not trying to judge anybody. I’ve long given up the view that God sends people to Hell and shifted to the view that people willingly reject God and therefore separate themselves from Him.

 

[ajcstr]

Does Natural Law not convict man of the Creator?

LOL, I’m so confused right now, I don’t know.

 

[rcwitness]

rcwitness:

Does Natural Law not convict man of the Creator?

LOL, I’m so confused right now, I don’t know.

Yes, I can appreciate now knowing, and of course not acting as though we would be able to judge.

But as for what I believe, it seems like a mortal sin for anyone to deny our Creator, God, and Merciful Sustainer of Life.

And I think it is in perfect accord with Catholic Teaching.

God will sort out His sheep from the goats. I hope I am counted among His sheep on that Day!

 

[BenedicamDominum]

But as for what I believe, it seems like a mortal sin for anyone to deny our Creator, God, and Merciful Sustainer of Life.

It is a grave sin, but it is not always a mortal sin. Obviously, the problem lies in analyzing culpability, and many individuals who deny God may well have a significantly reduced culpability for so doing.

 

[rcwitness]

rcwitness:

But as for what I believe, it seems like a mortal sin for anyone to deny our Creator, God, and Merciful Sustainer of Life.

It is a grave sin, but it is not always a mortal sin. Obviously, the problem lies in analyzing culpability, and many individuals who deny God may well have a significantly reduced culpability for so doing.

Yes, that’s the arguement. I’m just not convinced. But I do see where there can be some possible situations.

It’s just difficult to understand how we must “seek God” and Natural Law convicts us of God, yet they (someone who does not acknowledge God) may not be culpable for disbelief.

I think Natural Law comes from being created in God’s image. How can one be genuine, or sincere, yet conclude they have no Creator?

 

[tgGodsway]

Why use so many categories? There are those who were born into the family of Adam, and those who are born into Christ? The unsaved and the saved.

 

[rcwitness]

Why use so many categories? There are those who were born into the family of Adam, and those who are born into Christ? The unsaved and the saved.

Because there are those who have died, never being exposed to the God of Israel or her Messiah.

 

[tgGodsway]

rcwitness, hello.

I don’t understand why you would say that. I’m sure you know Paul’s writings on this. The natural man is without excuse. Listen to Rom. 1:18 and following,

Ro 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,
23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man–and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves,
25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

The point is, the natural man has received a natural revelation of creation. This revelation points to a spiritual revelation. But they are unwilling. Therefore, the Spirit of God says, they are without excuse.

 

[rcwitness]

Have you read through the thread?

 

[Vico]

for God has shown it to them

Not every person. Some have not developed the use of reason before their death, and some are in a state of invincible ignorance.

Catholic Encylopedia

Ignorance is said to be invincible when a person is unable to rid himself of it notwithstanding the employment of moral diligence, that is, such as under the circumstances is, morally speaking, possible and obligatory. This manifestly includes the states of inadvertence, forgetfulness, etc. Such ignorance is obviously involuntary and therefore not imputable.

Delany, J. (1910). Ignorance. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07648a.htm

 

[ajcstr]

I don’t understand why you would say that. I’m sure you know Paul’s writings on this. The natural man is without excuse. Listen to Rom. 1:18 and following,

We are specifically discussing Catholic teaching here. Not looking to debate anything, just looking for clarification on official teaching.

If you want to go down that road its probably better suited for the James 2 thread we are also in.