Salvation of Non-Christians

[HelenRose]

1 Timothy 2
This is good and pleasing in the sight of** God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth**.

2 Peter 3:
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance

If
"He can do what ever He wants. "
then
why aren’t all saved?

I don’t presume to know God’s mind either. I only love and trust Him and throw myself in His Merciful arms.

 

[alwayswill]

I don’t presume to know God’s mind either. I only love and trust Him and throw myself in His Merciful arms.

The plan of salvation for sinners is pretty important: God Incarnate died over it ;
Has God ever revealed His mind on these issues of salvation; so you don’t have to presume?

 

[HelenRose]

The plan of salvation is pretty important: God Incarnate died over it ;
Has God ever revealed His mind on these issues of salvation; so you don’t have to presume?

Then there is this lesson taught by Jesus for those who did not know Jesus but did His will.

Matthew 25:31-46New International Version (NIV)

The Sheep and the Goats

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

 

[HelenRose]

The plan of salvation for sinners is pretty important: God Incarnate died over it ;
Has God ever revealed His mind on these issues of salvation; so you don’t have to presume?

Do you really believe deep down in your heart that Jesus casts people who through no fault of their own are in Hell?

If so, how sad.

I have no more to say about it.

 

[alwayswill]

Then there is this lesson taught by Jesus for those who did not know Jesus but did His will.

Matthew 25:31-46New International Version (NIV)

The Sheep and the Goats

”

But They did know Jesus
they did not the stranger was Jesus"

verse 46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Those in eternal punishment are under the wrath of God: right?

John 3:16-18 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

 

[alwayswill]

Do you really believe deep down in your heart that Jesus casts people who through no fault of their own are in Hell?

If so, how sad.

I have no more to say about it.

Talk about presumption:

In other words:
If I were God then i would do it this way…

Deep down in my heart I believe the word of God whether I approve of it or not.

What if God doesn’t meet your approval?
Is 45

“Woe to those who quarrel with their Maker,
those who are nothing but potsherds
among the potsherds on the ground.
Does the clay say to the potter,
‘What are you making?’
Does your work say,
‘The potter has no hands’?
10
Woe to the one who says to a father,
‘What have you begotten?’
or to a mother,
‘What have you brought to birth?’

11
“This is what the Lord says—
the Holy One of Israel, and its Maker:
Concerning things to come,
do you question me about my children,
or give me orders about the work of my hands?
19
I, the Lord, speak the truth;
I declare what is right.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Talk about presumption:

In other words:
If I were God then i would do it this way…

Deep down in my heart I believe the word of God whether I approve of it or not.

What if God doesn’t meet your approval?
Is 45

“Woe to those who quarrel with their Maker,
those who are nothing but potsherds
among the potsherds on the ground.
Does the clay say to the potter,
‘What are you making?’
Does your work say,
‘The potter has no hands’?
10
Woe to the one who says to a father,
‘What have you begotten?’
or to a mother,
‘What have you brought to birth?’

11
“This is what the Lord says—
the Holy One of Israel, and its Maker:
Concerning things to come,
do you question me about my children,
or give me orders about the work of my hands?
19
I, the Lord, speak the truth;
I declare what is right.

Not sure what this is supposed to mean.

So yes or no, does some tribe in Africa who never heard the gospel(therefore never rejected it), but lived as righteous as they could according to what was written in their heart, get tossed into hell in your theology?

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Do you really believe deep down in your heart that Jesus casts people who through no fault of their own are in Hell?

If so, how sad.

I have no more to say about it.

It’s 5 point Calvinism at it’s peak. God loves us more than people who are in living in some third world country and, actually, created them for the sole purpose of throwing them into hell.

It’s totally abhorrent to me and not the God I know and love.

 

[alwayswill]

Not sure what this is supposed to mean.

So yes or no, does some tribe in Africa who never heard the gospel(therefore never rejected it), but lived as righteous as they could according to what was written in their heart, get tossed into hell in your theology?

"As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one;”

but I guess that means something different?

 

[alwayswill]

It’s 5 point Calvinism at it’s peak. God loves us more than people who are in living in some third world country and, actually, created them for the sole purpose of throwing them into hell.

It’s totally abhorrent to me and not the God I know and love.

I understand your view:
Is it even possible that not every thing God does would meet your approval?

I know and love the God of Scripture

Romans 9
"19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did** this** to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?"

what is the “this” referring to in verse 23?

 

[alwayswill]

It’s 5 point Calvinism at it’s peak. God loves us more than people who are in living in some third world country and, actually, created them for the sole purpose of throwing them into hell.

It’s totally abhorrent to me and not the God I know and love.

and back to the OP

“Who is the liar?
It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ.
Such a person is the antichrist–denying the Father and the Son
.
No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.”

-1 John 2:22-23

Do Muslims deny Jesus is the Christ (Anointed One, the Messiah )?

Do you think life long Anti-Christs get to heaven by their good works?

 

[Lenten_ashes]

"As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one;”

but I guess that means something different?

I said AS righteous as they could. Of course we are all sinners.

I understand your view:
Is it even possible that not every thing God does would meet your approval?

I know and love the God of Scripture

Romans 9
"19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did** this** to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?"

what is the “this” referring to in verse 23?

The problem is that there are more verses in the bible than what you have quoted from. In fact, many more than what Calvinism, as a whole, has used to make up their belief system.

And another problem is, you are working from a incomplete bible.

And another problem is your fallible interpretation of that incomplete bible.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

and back to the OP

“Who is the liar?
It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ.
Such a person is the antichrist–denying the Father and the Son
.
No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.”

-1 John 2:22-23

Do Muslims deny Jesus is the Christ (Anointed One, the Messiah )?

Do you think life long Anti-Christs get to heaven by their good works?

Forget Muslims for a second. Their belief system is ingrained to where they must reject the true Jesus, so I i can’t see them being allowed into heaven, but that’s between them and God.

How about peace loving people in remote areas of the world who love God, they just haven’t heard the gospel? Are we roasting them too?

 

[alwayswill]

I said AS righteous as they could. Of course we are all sinners.

The problem is that there are more verses in the bible than what you have quoted from. In fact, many more than what Calvinism, as a whole, has used to make up their belief system.

And another problem is, you are working from a incomplete bible.

And another problem is your fallible interpretation of that incomplete bible.

wow ; I must have lots of problems.

please point to the Scriptures that state (implicitly or explicitly) those who don’t know Christ and live AS righteous as they could can obtain salvation and eternal life and my problems will all be solved.
thank you

 

[Lenten_ashes]

please point to the Scriptures that state (implicitly or explicitly) those who don’t know Christ and live AS righteous as they could can obtain salvation and eternal life.
thank you

I’ll do that when you point to the passage that teaches Sola Scriptura and a INSPIRED table of contents instructing you as to which books belong in there.

Thank you.

 

[alwayswill]

I’ll do that when you point to the passage that teaches Sola Scriptura and a INSPIRED table of contents instructing you as to which books belong in there.

Thank you.

I would love to discuss that new topic with you;
please start a new thread and I’ll jump in

but back to the topic of **this **thread
“please point to the Scriptures that state (implicitly or explicitly) those who don’t know Christ and live AS righteous as they could can obtain salvation and eternal life.
thank you”

Still looking forward to you answer.

thanks

 

[Peter_J]

are you sure?

Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, Constitution 1, 1215, ex cathedra: “There is indeed one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which nobody at all is saved, in which Jesus Christ is both priest and sacrifice.”*

Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam, Nov. 18, 1302, ex cathedra:

“With Faith urging us we are forced to believe and to hold the one, holy, Catholic Church and that, apostolic, and we firmly believe and simply confess this Church outside of which there is no salvation nor remission of sin… Furthermore, we declare, say, define, and proclaim to every human creature that they by absolute necessity for salvation are entirely subject to the Roman Pontiff.”[ii]

Pope Clement V, Council of Vienne, Decree # 30, 1311-1312, ex cathedra:

“Since however there is for both regulars and seculars, for superiors and subjects, for exempt and non-exempt, one universal Church, outside of which there is no salvation, for all of whom there is one Lord, one faith, and one baptism…”[iii]

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Sess. 8, Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra:

“Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity.”[iv]

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:

“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”[v]

Pope Leo X, Fifth Lateran Council, Session 11, Dec. 19, 1516, ex cathedra:

“For, regulars and seculars, prelates and subjects, exempt and non-exempt, belong to the one universal Church, outside of which no one at all is saved, and they all have one Lord and one faith.”

Pope Pius IV, Council of Trent, “Iniunctum nobis,” Nov. 13, 1565, ex cathedra: “This true Catholic faith, outside of which no one can be saved… I now profess and truly hold…”[vii]

Pope Benedict XIV, Nuper ad nos, March 16, 1743, Profession of Faith: “This faith of the Catholic Church, without which no one can be saved, and which of my own accord I now profess and truly hold…”

Pope Pius IX, Vatican Council I, Session 2, Profession of Faith, 1870, ex cathedra: “This true Catholic faith, outside of which none can be saved, which I now freely profess and truly hold…”*

Ex cathedra according to whom? (I’m reminded of Scott Hahn’s comments about “a fallible list of infallible books”.)

 

[alwayswill]

Ex cathedra according to whom? (I’m reminded of Scott Hahn’s comments about “a fallible list of infallible books”.)

yea… I know.
There are disagreements on what is or is not an Ex cathedra declaration.

But the point of the posts is that there is an apparent contradiction between the current Catholic understanding and the previous understanding (Ex cathedra or not) of the salvation of Non-Christians.

.A few hundred years from now the understanding will be…?

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

The Catholic Church has the sacraments of salvation. I don’t know how one solves the problem of original sin and indeed actual sin. Of course it’s possible God works outside the sacraments, he is God after all. But He instituted the sacraments and then charged the church with the spreading of those sacraments and beliefs. Our Catholic Heros and saints have always understood this. Dying to spread the faith. Even in the Americas. But we have the elitism to think we have figured out that we need not risk even put embarrassment of speaking and teaching of Jesus in the public square. Certainly we are not going door to door or standing outside of mosques telling our own neighbors or fellow citizens about Jesus. Nope, we claim salvation of a God who quietly balances a scale and of your good deeds outweigh the bad, then God redeems anyone. It’s comfortable for us to believe. And then happily enjoy our tv.

 

[Peter_J]

But the point of the posts is that there is an apparent contradiction between the current Catholic understanding and the previous understanding (Ex cathedra or not) of the salvation of Non-Christians.

You mean like the understanding after the Council of Nicea (325) was different from 1st century understanding? (Ok, I know that gets trotted out a lot, but it fits very nicely here.)