Salvation of Non-Christians

[ThundersnowIV]

Picky freakout: It doesn’t beg the question. Begging the question is a very specific type of logical fallacy. It prompts the question, or leads up to the question, but it doesn’t beg the question.

Okay, rant over.

God is unknowable, so we can’t know when he makes exceptions until we get there, but God promised the sacraments, so they’re a sure bet.

beg the question
phrase of beg
1.
(of a fact or action) raise a question or point that has not been dealt with; invite an obvious question.
2.
avoid the question; evade the issue.

 

[ThundersnowIV]

I’ve always wondered how these “kind and gentle” souls rid thier souls of mortal sins. Ignorance is always an option for some things. But not all. A soul that has never stolen, commited impure sexual acts etc…

I’m sure God can provide the necessary means as he is not bound by the sacraments he instituted but if it’s so common, why have them at all? A Catholic must confess all mortal sins even if they are a kind and gentle soul. It seems that some think it’s more likely that a person not bound by the church and not aware of the gospel has a better or equal chance of salvation as someone who has the gospel.

Which begs the question…

An excellent and special post. From those who know more…more is expected.

 

[arthra]

*“I don’t think I’ve ever heard a definitive answer whether salvation is extended to non-Christians, or how easily they can obtain it. If my friend isn’t in Heaven now, unless there is some miracle that will happen with her, I shudder to think about it. Is there any official doctrine on the Salvation of non-Christians?” *

Of course I’m a “non- Christian” myself… but I strongly believe that a child who has passed out of this life under such circumstances will be enveloped in the love and mercy of God…

Muslims believe in God and accept Jesus … perhaps not in the same way as Christians. Recently a Cardinal apparently accepted Muhammad as a Prophet.

siasat.com/news/catholic-cardinal-admits-mohammed-pbuh-true-prophet-god-1038881/

So God in His mercy in my view will accept this child.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Why would a sinner end up in heaven?

Those in Heaven who are not Jesus or Mary or an angel were, in fact, sinners.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

wow ; I must have lots of problems.

please point to the Scriptures that state …

As a non-Catholic visitor you should know that what is dispositive in Catholic theology is what governs determinations of Catholics.

The Magisterium alone is the guardian of the Sacred Deposit of the Faith.

How anyone, from the perspective of Catholic theology, chooses to read or understand a pericope of a sacred text is always subject to revision in view of the supreme teaching authority of the Church.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

But we have the elitism to think we have figured out that we need not risk even put embarrassment of speaking and teaching of Jesus in the public square. Certainly we are not going door to door or standing outside of mosques telling our own neighbors or fellow citizens about Jesus. Nope, we claim salvation of a God who quietly balances a scale and of your good deeds outweigh the bad, then God redeems anyone. It’s comfortable for us to believe. And then happily enjoy our tv.

I find your statements and images to be a very gross caricature of what I have witnessed across the decades of my priesthood.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

*“I don’t think I’ve ever heard a definitive answer whether salvation is extended to non-Christians, or how easily they can obtain it. If my friend isn’t in Heaven now, unless there is some miracle that will happen with her, I shudder to think about it. Is there any official doctrine on the Salvation of non-Christians?” *

Of course I’m a “non- Christian” myself… but I strongly believe that a child who has passed out of this life under such circumstances will be enveloped in the love and mercy of God…

Muslims believe in God and accept Jesus … perhaps not in the same way as Christians. Recently a Cardinal apparently accepted Muhammad as a Prophet.

siasat.com/news/catholic-cardinal-admits-mohammed-pbuh-true-prophet-god-1038881/

So God in His mercy in my view will accept this child.

Thank you for your post.

I join you in entrusting this child, who suffered so much on account of one man’s effort at religious observance, to the God of Mercy. May this child, whom He loved from all eternity, be in the safety and love of His never ending embrace embrace, in an eternal face to Face.

Your post gives me occasion to post one of my favorite videos of Pope Francis. At once simple and profound, it has a splendid capacity to touch the viewer.

thepopevideo.org/en/video/interreligious-dialogue.html

 

[Lenten_ashes]

I would love to discuss that new topic with you;
please start a new thread and I’ll jump in

but back to the topic of **this **thread
“please point to the Scriptures that state (implicitly or explicitly) those who don’t know Christ and live AS righteous as they could can obtain salvation and eternal life.
thank you”

Still looking forward to you answer.

thanks

That topic is related to the discussion at hand. Because when you make the demand to see a scripture stating ____(enter topic) you operate from a erroneous position that Christianity is a religion of the book when that is not the case. It’s a religion of the man God, Jesus, who left us a Church that has always operated with Tradition and councils and such. Thankfully we have a book but we need correct understanding if it.

The Church uses her authority and reasoning guided by the Spirit to say the invincibility ignorant can be saved. Think back to the OT spirits in prison who did not hear the gospel in their lifetime. Jesus preached to them and they attained salvation. How can you be absolutely certain the same thing does not happen in the afterlife today to at least a select few? Have you died?

I do understand the fundamentalist objection to this as they think the CC is watering down the gospel, but that is not the case. Nobody is downplaying the necessity to preach the gospel always. But we dont live in a black n white world.

 

[In_Hoc_Signo312]

Matthew 11:28

“Come to me, all you who are weary and heavily burdened, and I will give you rest.”

Actually we are talking past each other. There are thousands of Protestant Churches who interpret the Bible different from each other. The reason there are so many Protestant Churches is there is no one entity to bind them together. Each person can interpret the Bible any which way they want to.

I am a Catholic because I accept the authority of the Church’s interpretations. You are not because you interpret the Bible the you want to.

But all of this is not what the original poster wants to hear. I would love to ask you about other interpretations that we disagree on if you want to carry on the conversation elsewhere.

If you want to have this conversation here, it’s fine with me. If I’m being honest, what I want to hear is something that nobody on here is capable of. What I want is to hear my friend’s voice again, and see her alive again. Unless God should appear to me and tell me that she’s in Heaven now, or for some reason sees fit to turn back time and tide and I’m suddenly in the past again to stop this from happening again, I fear that it will be a very long time, if ever, before I know peace again. :bighanky:

 

[In_Hoc_Signo312]

and back to the OP

“Who is the liar?
It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ.
Such a person is the antichrist–denying the Father and the Son
.
No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.”

-1 John 2:22-23

Do Muslims deny Jesus is the Christ (Anointed One, the Messiah )?

Do you think life long Anti-Christs get to heaven by their good works?

You’re asking me something that no human mind can know with absolute certainty.

 

[In_Hoc_Signo312]

Hello Hoosier Daddy
Another possibility is reincarnation. That we are all souls inhabiting these bodies for a period of time, and when the body dies we move on to some knew adventure.

Even if such a thing were true, if reincarnation is real, we don’t have any knowledge of other lives. I wouldn’t know if it was the same soul.

 

[alwayswill]

You’re asking me something that no human mind can know with absolute certainty.

is knowing with “absolute certainty” the standard?

For example, I believe that the sun is going to rise tomorrow. I prepare each day with this belief in mind.
Each night, I set my alarm clock and review my appointments for the following day, having a certain expectation that the next day will truly come.
**While I have certainty about the sun rising the next day, I don’t have infallible certainty that it will. **

There could be some astronomical anomaly that causes the earth to stop its rotation. There could be an asteroid that comes and destroys the earth.
Christ could come in the middle of the night. In short, I don’t have absolute infallible certainty about the coming of the next day. **
**
This, however, does not give me an excuse before men or God for not believing that it will come.

so I am asking you : do lifelong anti-Christs (Those who deny Jesus is the Anointed One, the Messiah) end up in heaven?

 

[Peter_J]

I think he plagiarized that.

 

[Peter_J]

is knowing with “absolute certainty” the standard?

For example, I believe that the sun is going to rise tomorrow. I prepare each day with this belief in mind.
Each night, I set my alarm clock and review my appointments for the following day, having a certain expectation that the next day will truly come.
**While I have certainty about the sun rising the next day, I don’t have infallible certainty that it will. **

There could be some astronomical anomaly that causes the earth to stop its rotation. There could be an asteroid that comes and destroys the earth.
Christ could come in the middle of the night. In short, I don’t have absolute infallible certainty about the coming of the next day. **
**
This, however, does not give me an excuse before men or God for not believing that it will come.

so I am asking you : do lifelong anti-Christs (Those who deny Jesus is the Anointed One, the Messiah) end up in heaven?

Do lifelong Christians end up in heaven?

 

[In_Hoc_Signo312]

is knowing with “absolute certainty” the standard?

For example, I believe that the sun is going to rise tomorrow. I prepare each day with this belief in mind.
Each night, I set my alarm clock and review my appointments for the following day, having a certain expectation that the next day will truly come.
**While I have certainty about the sun rising the next day, I don’t have infallible certainty that it will. **

There could be some astronomical anomaly that causes the earth to stop its rotation. There could be an asteroid that comes and destroys the earth.
Christ could come in the middle of the night. In short, I don’t have absolute infallible certainty about the coming of the next day. **
**
This, however, does not give me an excuse before men or God for not believing that it will come.

so I am asking you : do lifelong anti-Christs (Those who deny Jesus is the Anointed One, the Messiah) end up in heaven?

If I knew, would I be asking about it on here?

 

[Peter_J]

Yep, I remember now, somebody on Law and Order said it first.

 

[alwayswill]

Do lifelong Christians end up in heaven?

using the Biblical definition of Christian:
(“Or do you not realize about yourselves that Jesus Christ is in you"
and
“Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”)

I think the God’s word is very clear:
Christians end up in heaven

 

[alwayswill]

If I knew, would I be asking about it on here?

I have to ask a sincere question
Is it that you do not know what Scripture says on this subject;
or you do know; but don’t accept it?

 

[alwayswill]

Is it a proper summary of your view that if someone does enough good things they can go to heaven regardless of their beliefs?

 

[Peter_J]

IMHO this conversation started out great and then went wrong.