Salvation of non Jews before the New Covenant

[Sky_River]

**Because they were in disobedience to God. Most Jews did not become Christians. They held to their old customs and traditions.
**
Imagine yourself in their shoes…you would probably do the same thing. Further, they would still be practicing the old law if their temple was not destroyed and they weren’t scattered throughout the land.

Orthodox Jews today, want their land and temple back so they can have the law practiced like it was before.

Here’s what I don’t get about that. God gave harsh punishments in the Law of Moses in the era before Christ paid for people’s sins (which, as you said, was what mankind needed at the time), but after Jesus died on the cross, those types of punishments are now barbaric and unnecessary. But the Law of Israel didnt have a cutoff date at 33AD. If the diaspora didnt happen and the Jewish theocracy controlled the land into modern times, Israel would still be executing people for sexual sins today, similar to what Islamic countries do.

So why would God create laws that were only meant for a specific context, if people (like the Jewish governments) would disobey him and hold on to old traditions he never intended for them to hold onto?

 

[Jon_S_1]

Here’s what I don’t get about that. God gave harsh punishments in the Law of Moses in the era before Christ paid for people’s sins (which, as you said, was what mankind needed at the time), but after Jesus died on the cross, those types of punishments are now barbaric and unnecessary. But the Law of Israel didnt have a cutoff date at 33AD. If the diaspora didnt happen and the Jewish theocracy controlled the land into modern times, Israel would still be executing people for sexual sins today, similar to what Islamic countries do.

So why would God create laws that were only meant for a specific context, if people (like the Jewish governments) would disobey him and hold on to old traditions he never intended for them to hold onto?

Why would God create Adam and Eve knowing they would sin. Humans are sinners it is part of life. It is not Gods fault it is our fault.

 

[Sky_River]

We cannot know one way or another.

We do know that the Jews who atoned to the one God were following his plan of salvation.

We also know that God greatly condemned repeatedly the idolatry of that time. Noah and his family the sole survivors of the flood, made a covenant with God. So it seems many cultures after this rejected this covenant.

Their individual fates are not known, nor recorded for us to know. It is between God and them.

**I see know reason why someone righteous outside of Israel who followed God would not find salvation.
**
But again, this is speculative and hopeful. Certainty lies in the ark of the church.

But wouldnt that contradict the whole idea that Jesus died on the cross to pay for our sins so that we could go to heaven, if people in certain time periods went to heaven by simply being righteous? Isaiah 64:6 says are righteousness is like filthy rags to God. They dont earn us salvation.

 

[Jon_S_1]

But wouldnt that contradict the whole idea that Jesus died on the cross to pay for our sins so that we could go to heaven, if people in certain time periods went to heaven by simply being righteous? Isaiah 64:6 says are righteousness is like filthy rags to God. They dont earn us salvation.

Anyone that goes to heaven does so through Christ and the cross. By submitting their lives to God in the way they know how.

The way God has revealed this is through The Catholic Church…other ways are hopes and speculation in Gods mercy.

As I said before, before Christ no one went to heaven. The righteous who submitted to God, waited for Christ to open heaven for them.

 

[raoul1951]

Many people ask-where did the Old Testament saints go when they died, before Jesus came, or “how do people who dont hear of Jesus go to heaven”. I have a very similar question, something that’s been confusing me for a while by now.

Animal sacrifice, which people in the Old Testament used to forgive them of their sins, was not revealed to the non Jews, or people who didnt live in Israel and werent a part of the Old Covenant. And the Old Testament Jews didnt evangelize people like Christians do today.

Were people who lived outside the Holy Land all doomed to hell, because they werent born in the right place and time? Basically, was there salvation for people before the New Covenant, but outside the Old Covenant?

The Bible does imply that non Jews in the pre-New Covenant era could repent. It says that the Caananites knew of God’s power but rejected him-implying if they repented, God would have given them a chance of having a relationship with him, and probably even salvation. Rahab is an example of that.

I had a conversation with somebody at church regarding this issue. He said God could have allowed people into Heaven based on their honest belief in God-like for example, the native americans who believed in the great spirit. But by that logic, Christians shouldnt evanglize others, because even people who arent Christians go to heaven. My theory is this-God deals with humanity differently under the New Covenant than in the Old Covenant. In the days before the New Covenant, God didnt judge peoples salvation as to whether or not they believed in the future messiah. There were other ways he did. tbm.org/were_people_saved_before_christ.htm

Since, the idea of animal sacrifices originated with the non-Jews (Able), how were the Jews the only ones covered by them.
And also, as the animal sacrifices was the weakest way to attain forgiveness for sin(s) why does it concern you? As the animal sacrifices were only for inadvertent sins.
For intentional sins, they had no effect.

 

[Sky_River]

Since, the idea of animal sacrifices originated with the non-Jews (Able), how were the Jews the only ones covered by them.
And also, as the animal sacrifices was the weakest way to attain forgiveness for sin(s) why does it concern you? As the animal sacrifices were only for inadvertent sins.
For intentional sins, they had no effect.

So why did the Jews living in the nation of Israel during the Old Covenant times, sacrifice animals for their sins, if it didnt forgive them of all of their sins and give them salvation in heaven? Abraham and Moses did animal sacrifices for their sins, but they only went to Heaven until after Jesus died on the Cross and descended to Limbo. Jesus’s sacrifice, not animals, gave them Heaven. So why was animal sacrifice neccesary back then?

 

[tanachanswers]

Animal sacrifice, which people in the Old Testament used to forgive them of their sins, was not revealed to the non Jews, or people who didnt live in Israel and werent a part of the Old Covenant.

And yet, the bible teaches that a non-Jew originated animal sacrifices, i.e. Able.

And the Old Testament Jews didnt evangelize people like Christians do today.

It was not necessary, just read the book of Jonah, where the sailors converted to Judaism after the seas were calmed.

The Bible does imply that non Jews in the pre-New Covenant era could repent. It says that the Caananites knew of God’s power but rejected him-implying if they repented, God would have given them a chance of having a relationship with him, and probably even salvation. Rahab is an example of that.

Absolutely!

I had a conversation with somebody at church regarding this issue. He said God could have allowed people into Heaven based on their honest belief in God-like for example, the native americans who believed in the great spirit. But by that logic, Christians shouldnt evanglize others, because even people who arent Christians go to heaven. My theory is this-God deals with humanity differently under the New Covenant than in the Old Covenant. In the days before the New Covenant, God didnt judge peoples salvation as to whether or not they believed in the future messiah. There were other ways he did. tbm.org/were_people_saved_before_christ.htm

And i must disagree. G-d laughs at men.

 

[tanachanswers]

So why did the Jews living in the nation of Israel during the Old Covenant times, sacrifice animals for their sins, if it didnt forgive them of all of their sins and give them salvation in heaven?

A fair question. Several commentators state that the animal sacrifices were nothing more than a means to wean the Jews from pagan practices.

As for salvation in heaven, this is not dealt with directly by the Torah, but is hinted at in the Nach/prophets and writings.

Abraham and Moses did animal sacrifices for their sins,

Ok! But, Avraham was not Jewish.

but they only went to Heaven until after Jesus died on the Cross and descended to Limbo. Jesus’s sacrifice,

I would love to see the bible quote for this.

not animals, gave them Heaven. So why was animal sacrifice neccesary back then?

It wasn’t. There were other means of forgiving sins.

 

[tanachanswers]

If the practices of the law of Moses werent needed in the time past Jesus, why did the Jews still enforce it even past Jesus’s death? The Bible says that the Old Covenant became obsolete after Jesus’s death, so why was it still in existence in the 40 yr time period between Jesus’s death on the cross and the Jewish Diaspora in 70 AD?

And better yet, why will the Torah be the Law of the land in the days of the messiah ?
*(Mal 4:4 BBE) Keep in mind the law of Moses, my servant, which I gave him in Horeb for all Israel, even the rules and the decisions.

(Mal 4:5 BBE) See, I am sending you Elijah the prophet before the day of the Lord comes, that great day, greatly to be feared.*

---

(Mat 24:20 BBE) And say a prayer that your flight may not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath.

(Mat 24:21 BBE) Because in those days there will be great sorrow, such as there has not been from the start of the world till now, or ever will be.

Matthew is speaking of the end of days, and Iesus has clearly stated that the Torah will be in effect in the end of days, as did G-d in the prophet Malachi.

 

[Sky_River]

A fair question. Several commentators state that the animal sacrifices were nothing more than a means to wean the Jews from pagan practices.

As for salvation in heaven, this is not dealt with directly by the Torah, but is hinted at in the Nach/prophets and writings.

Abraham and Moses did animal sacrifices for their sins,

but they only went to Heaven until after Jesus died on the Cross and descended to Limbo. Jesus’s sacrifice,

I would love to see the bible quote for this.

It wasn’t. There were other means of forgiving sins.

What makes you think Abraham wasnt Jewish? I learned in history class that Abraham was the first Jew.

If animal sacrifices didnt forgive people of their sins in the Old Testament, than what did forgive them of their sins so that they could go to Heaven? At church I was told that the ancient Jews needed animal sacrifices for heaven.

 

[tanachanswers]

What makes you think Abraham wasnt Jewish?

Because, he died prior to the giving of the Torah on Mount Sinay, which where Judaism/Jewish nation started.

He was a father [one of three] of the Jewish people.

If animal sacrifices didnt forgive people of their sins in the Old Testament, than what did forgive them of their sins so that they could go to Heaven?

Animal sacrifices only forgave unintentional sins:
(Lev 4:13 BBE) And if all the people of Israel do wrong, without anyone’s knowledge

; if they have done any of the things which by the Lord’s order are not to be done, causing sin to come on them;
(Lev 4:14 BBE) When the sin which they have done comes to light, then let all the people give an ox for a sin-offering, and take it before the Tent of meeting.

When the sin which he has done is made clear to him, let him give for his offering a goat, a male without any mark.

At church I was told that the ancient Jews needed animal sacrifices for heaven.

They are not known for knowing Judaism in church.

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[Sky_River]

Sky River;12423211:

What makes you think Abraham wasnt Jewish?

Because, he died prior to the giving of the Torah on Mount Sinay, which where Judaism/Jewish nation started.

(Lev 4:13 BBE) And if all the people of Israel do wrong, without anyone’s knowledge; if they have done any of the things which by the Lord’s order are not to be done, causing sin to come on them;
(Lev 4:14 BBE) When the sin which they have done comes to light, then let all the people give an ox for a sin-offering, and take it before the Tent of meeting.

When the sin which he has done is made clear to him, let him give for his offering a goat, a male without any mark.

They are not known for knowing Judaism in church.

Before Jesus came, what forgave intentional sins?
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[tanachanswers]

Before Jesus came, what forgave intentional sins?

Giving charity, studying the Torah or praying:
*(1Ki 8:33 BBE) When your people Israel are overcome in war, because of their sin against you; if they are turned to you again, honouring your name, making prayers to you and requesting your grace in this house:
(1Ki 8:34 BBE) Then give ear in heaven, and let the sin of your people Israel have forgiveness, and take them back again into the land which you gave to their fathers.
*

 

[Kaninchen]

Before Jesus came, what forgave intentional sins?

From a Jewish perspective, of course, the whole Jesus business is irrelevant.

By the way, a Jewish answer to the thread title would be that nobody has ever needed or needs ‘Salvation’ in the Christian sense of the word - Judaism isn’t Christianity minus Jesus and Christianity isn’t Judaism plus Jesus, they’re very different religions.

 

[Sky_River]

Giving charity, studying the Torah or praying:
*(1Ki 8:33 BBE) When your people Israel are overcome in war, because of their sin against you; if they are turned to you again, honouring your name, making prayers to you and requesting your grace in this house:
(1Ki 8:34 BBE) Then give ear in heaven, and let the sin of your people Israel have forgiveness, and take them back again into the land which you gave to their fathers.
*

But why did Jesus need to die on the cross for our sins, if there were other ways peoples sins were forgiven before he came on Earth? If peoples sins were forgiven through other ways, doesnt that cheapen the value of what Christ did on the cross? You are implying that peoples sins were forgiven through other means, which contradicts what the Bible says-that Christs blood had to be shed so we could go to Heaven.

 

[Kaninchen]

But why did Jesus need to die on the cross for our sins, if there were other ways peoples sins were forgiven before he came on Earth? If peoples sins were forgiven through other ways, doesnt that cheapen the value of what Christ did on the cross? You are implying that peoples sins were forgiven through other means, which contradicts what the Bible says-that Christs blood had to be shed so we could go to Heaven.

I think you’re under the misapprehension that Jews consider the Christian ‘New Testament’ as Scripture/Reportage, we don’t. It’s no more important to us than the Qur’an or Book of Mormon would be to you in trying to understand Catholicism.

The question of Jesus dying for ‘our sins’ is a Christian problem not a Jewish problem.

 

[tanachanswers]

But why did Jesus need to die on the cross for our sins, if there were other ways peoples sins were forgiven before he came on Earth? If peoples sins were forgiven through other ways, doesnt that cheapen the value of what Christ did on the cross? You are implying that peoples sins were forgiven through other means, which contradicts what the Bible says-that Christs blood had to be shed so we could go to Heaven.

That is a problem for you to work out as human sacrifice was never allowed.

 

[Sky_River]

I think you’re under the misapprehension that Jews consider the Christian ‘New Testament’ as Scripture/Reportage, we don’t. It’s no more important to us than the Qur’an or Book of Mormon would be to you in trying to understand Catholicism.
**
The question of Jesus dying for ‘our sins’ is a Christian problem not a Jewish problem.**

Jesus dying for our sins was directly mentioned in the book of Isaiah. It was in the Old Testament-not just in the NT.

 

[Kaninchen]

Jesus dying for our sins was directly mentioned in the book of Isaiah. It was in the Old Testament-not just in the NT.

The idea that there are prophesies in the Tanakh that are fulfilled in the New Testament is, of course, an important part of Christian apologetics and it’s a topic that has been thrashed out here time, after time, after time, more and less heatedly.

The fact is that we interpret our scriptures in our way and you interpret them in another way and there isn’t much point in asking us to discuss things within the Christian paradigm when we don’t believe a word of it. For us that’s just an exercise in ‘literary criticism’ where, for you, it’s about religious truth.

 

[tanachanswers]

From a Jewish perspective, of course, the whole Jesus business is irrelevant.

By the way, a Jewish answer to the thread title would be that nobody has ever needed or needs ‘Salvation’ in the Christian sense of the word - Judaism isn’t Christianity minus Jesus and Christianity isn’t Judaism plus Jesus, they’re very different religions.

Amen!