Dear LilyM,
No - plenty of people do have baptism available to them and are sufficiently informed as to the function of it and the beliefs underlying it, but neglect to take advantage of the sacrament and never form the desire to do so. I accept sadly that these are still blotted by Original Sin and are damned.
If the 1st theory is correct, then the infants would have this choice to reject or accept God. If the 2nd or 3rd theory is correct, then they would enter strait into Heaven. It would be similar with a baby who dies shorty after being baptised.
You are very confused. Yes, when you look up the word Limbo, the Vatican tells you to look to number 1261 of the Catechism, which states…
Your statement is contrary and opposed to the teaching of the Catholic Church. If you want to pretend Limbo is infallible teaching, you are placing yourself outside of authentic Catholic teaching. Limbo is NOT revealed truth! I don’t know how many times this must be said, apparently alot…faithful Catholics can believe these infants go to Limbo, and also can believe that they can go to Heaven, as does our current Pope Benedict XVI. Apparently you are “more Catholic than the Pope.” I remind you that he was already practically a genius, and an amazing theologian of the Church, as Cardinal Ratzinger. And now he is our Holy Father. Are you really prepared to claim he is rejecting Church teaching when he personally views Limbo as a false idea? Don’t you think he of all people know what is infallibly defined Church teaching, and what is up for debate and personal opinion? It is nice to know I am in good company, that my sentiments are in union with our Pope. However, you are still free to believe in Limbo. Why on earth must you refuse to recognize our freedom to believe these infants can be saved and enter into Heaven?
Yes, agreed. We are not saying that all those in the age of reason who were never baptised by water are going to Heaven. Some will, and some will not. In order for them to achieve salvation, they must be have invisible ignorance of the necessity of baptism. They must also live their lives according to God’s moral precepts, seeking the truth and doing the best with what they were given, as little as that may be. They must try their best to follow God’s will. If so they will be baptised by desire. Also they must have perfect contrition for any moral sins committed and therefore die in a state of grace. It this is in place, they will enter Heaven. And if not, they cannot enter Heaven and will go to Hell. God judges us perfectly, in a just and merciful manner. He doesn’t expect the impossible, and He judges us on our own individual situation and circumstance. I do not believe God would ever ban someone from Heaven because of an unfortunate circumstance they are in. I feel strongly that He gives all of us the opportunity to be saved, to be with Him in Heaven forever.
No, it is de fide. First St. Alphonsus describes Baptism of Desire, then he says this doctrine is de fide. Saying that when the Church defines Baptism of Desire and then says that Baptism of Desire is de fide, she does not say what she means by desire is a lot like saying CCC 1261 means limbo when it says salvation. Common sense and honesty in evaluation of these texts tell us it can’t be any other way.
If He can justly carry out an action, it would also be merciful for Him to carry out that same action, for God is completely simple. Justice and mercy are in complete harmony; neither the one nor the other can be exercised in violation of the other.
No, it is not. I’ve tried to explain how it is de fide that Baptism of Desire is only possible to one who has reason; it is implicit in the very idea itself. It is also expressly indicated in the explanation of Baptism of Desire that it is a desire on the part of the person baptized. And it is just plain nonsense that the “built-in desire for God” in each person can obtain heaven; it is not a “built-in desire”–it is a built-in capacity to desire. One can go against that capacity, or one can follow it; of course, it is impossible to make a choice either way until one has reason. No one can gain heaven by default, for that is contrary to the very nature of Original Sin; before Original Sin, all men would by default gain heaven if they didn’t commit actual sin; after Original Sin, all men by default are deprived of heaven even if they don’t commit actual sin. Yet your 3rd method says exactly that: babies by default gain heaven because they have a supposed default desire for God’s will.
Don’t you think this scenario falls under justice, not mercy? Doesn’t it have to do with “fairness”? And “fairness” falls under justice, not mercy, right?
Dear LilyM,
So then…isn’t your answer really that there are no such cases?
Till the cow jumps over the moon?
I’m at a loss why the mini-popes continue to assert that their theology is correct, when the Church has not taught with certainty what the state of unbaptized infants is after death, or for that matter, even in their resurrected body!St. John has given us much to consider, for eternity is not related to time. Who of us knows what we will be in eternity? Every soul that God has willed to bestow life upon will have a glorified body, but can we say that an infant who died in the womb or even a few months after birth will always be an infant? Will a 95-year old always remain “old?” Will a paraplegic always be crippled? Or someone born without intelligence always be ignorant?
I would hope we wouldn’t quit the war-zone! What kind of soldiers of Christ would we be if we readily quite the war-zone in the face of opposition? What else is a battle all about but engaging the opposition?
Not a bit of it - there are levels of knowledge, and negligence too, which fall in between what is required for personal sin and complete ignorance, you know
A whole spectrum of levels knowledge and ways of knowing, not just ‘knowing’ and ‘not knowing’ with no grey areas I haven’t been here for a week and I see it’s the same old, same old. I find it interesting that the liberal Catholics never see themselves as mini popes, they only see the trads that way.I would hope we wouldn’t quit the war-zone! What kind of soldiers of Christ would we be if we readily quite the war-zone in the face of opposition? What else is a battle all about but engaging the opposition?
However, I’m done with this thread. Some will be relieved to hear this, no doubt. I haven’t the patience to endure more personal attacks and slanders like those on the “Salvation & Hope” thread, and I see they are starting up here. Nevertheless, I do thank LilyM and FTS for maintaining a charitable and personal-attack-free debate with me. God reward you!
Maria
Till the cow jumps over the moon?
