Salvation of Unbaptized

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Fr. Feeney was excommunicated for disobedience. Technically, it was not due to his beliefs, eventhough they were condemned.
Feeney did reconcile with the Church before his death. I do not adhere to Feeney’s theology, but he was not made to recant his beliefs when he was received back into the Church.
Unnecessary for him to formally recant his beliefs.

In that his views are incompatible with Magisterial teaching both on God’s fathomless mercy and omnipotence, they are incompatible with faithful Catholicism.

They are essentially an effective denial that God has the desire to save those who seek to faithfully follow him, and the power to do so regardless of what sacraments or lack thereof, or formal Church membership or lack thereof.
 
Fr. Feeney was excommunicated for disobedience. Technically, it was not due to his beliefs, eventhough they were condemned.
Feeney did reconcile with the Church before his death. I do not adhere to Feeney’s theology, but he was not made to recant his beliefs when he was received back into the Church.
Thanks for that info. 🙂
 
So you’re saying that John Paul 2 and the compilers of the latest Catechism of the Catholic Church are guilty of heresy since they assert salvation is possible for the unbaptised? Hardly. They simply have clarified the understanding of what it actually MEANS to be in the ‘bosom and unity’ of the Church, as Eugene put it - and that unity with the Church can exist outside of FORMAL unity.

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Without commenting on whether the late Holy Father and the authors of the current catechism were indeed heretics I will say this. If they were indeed heretics it would not be the first time such a thing happened in the history of the Church. That is a fact that is well worth remembering in these difficult times.
 
Without commenting on whether the late Holy Father and the authors of the current catechism were indeed heretics I will say this. If they were indeed heretics it would not be the first time such a thing happened in the history of the Church. That is a fact that is well worth remembering in these difficult times.
You very well must know that this would be going a heck of a lot further than just saying a Pope or scholar was privately holding heretical views though.

Most Catholics consider JP2’s Catechism to be a pretty definite exercise of Magisterial authority, and intended by him and them to be such. Hence he and they would have very clearly taught erroneously on matters of faith and morals. Hence the promises of Christ regarding His protection of the Church are, if one proceeds even one or two steps down this path, null and void.
 
Without commenting on whether the late Holy Father and the authors of the current catechism were indeed heretics I will say this. If they were indeed heretics it would not be the first time such a thing happened in the history of the Church. That is a fact that is well worth remembering in these difficult times.
Dear palmas85,

Would you please provide the documentation for this statement? Which Popes were heretics and exactly where did you learn this?

Yours,

Gorman
 
Way to go for someone who calls themselves Catholic 👍 I suggest you find out before arguing further on the point, otherwise we’ll be talking at total cross-purposes.
Frankly I don’t care what John Paul II or the CCC said. Modernists [edited] believe that Catholicism started with the Vatican II popes. Neither the CCC nor John Paul II defined anything dogmatically, where as Pope Eugene and others did.
But we CAN be sure that he wasn’t presumptuous enough to mean anything but that God is perfectly able to save who He wills as He wills, within or without the framework of the sacraments if He so wishes!
That’s a pretty audacious statement to assert that if Pope Eugene didn’t mean what you think he SHOULD have meant it’s “presumptuous”. Unbelievable!
 
That’s a pretty audacious statement to assert that if Pope Eugene didn’t mean what you think he SHOULD have meant it’s “presumptuous”. Unbelievable!
What I find unbelievable is you and Feeney. If Pope Eugene in fact meant what the pair of you think he meant, it’s nothing short of insulting to our omnipotent and omnibenevolent God, who, as our Saviour said, can raise children to Abraham (and alternate means of salvation for the unbaptised) from the very stones if he so wishes!
 
Laszlo,

When the popes and theologians used the terms heretics and schismatics, they were referring to formal heretics and schismatics. A sincere Protestant in invincible ignorance of the true religion is a material heretic, not a formal heretic. Thus a baptized Protestant who is invincibly ignorant and who dies in the state of grace is saved. Such a one is united to the soul of the Church though not to the body.

Maria
Those outside the Church, Maria, lack what’s called the formal motive of belief. In effect they don’t have the faith at all but instead an opinion based upon private reason. That’s why Protestantism is so insidious. Material heretics are Catholics who believe in Catholicism, i.e. accept the teaching authority of the Church but are in error regarding the heretical nature of some proposition to which they hold. Materially heretical Catholics are not pertinacious and would therefore reject the heretical proposition once their ignorance had been lifted. Protestants on the other hand reject in principle the teaching authority so they are by definition pertinacious. It’s not about good will and invincible ignorance. It’s about whether one has the faith at all, without which one cannot be saved.

Formal heretics positively destroy the formal motive of belief, whereas Protestants negatively lack it, so in effect it’s the same thing, a formal lack of faith.
 
What I find unbelievable is you and Feeney. If Pope Eugene in fact meant what the pair of you think he meant, it’s nothing short of insulting to our omnipotent and omnibenevolent God, who, as our Saviour said, can raise children to Abraham (and alternate means of salvation for the unbaptised) from the very stones if he so wishes!
I’m going to stop discussing this issue with you. It does seem that you have some kind of emotional investment in the matter so there’s no point. It only appears to be aggravating whatever turmoil there is in your soul. I’ll probably just case posting on this thread altogether.

Please be careful that you don’t lapse into heresy based upon those emotions. Many a soul has been lost for questioning the mercy of God due to trials and crosses they have received.

I’ll pray for you that you find peace of soul regarding whatever nerve I touched.

God bless you,
 
I’m going to stop discussing this issue with you. It does seem that you have some kind of emotional investment in the matter so there’s no point. It only appears to be aggravating whatever turmoil there is in your soul. I’ll probably just case posting on this thread altogether.

Please be careful that you don’t lapse into heresy based upon those emotions. Many a soul has been lost for questioning the mercy of God due to trials and crosses they have received.

I’ll pray for you that you find peace of soul regarding whatever nerve I touched.

God bless you,
The only one questioning God’s mercy here is yourself - you would deny even the hope of it to the unbaptised who should have no reason to be hopeless. My motive is in fact to seek proper acknowledgement of his UNFATHOMABLE mercy - the opposite of you, it appears, who so happily condemns people to hell (and let’s not forget that that IS what Limbo is, like it or not).

What I don’t understand, in view of the fact that Christ promises to judge us as we judge others, is how, if you hope for mercy for yourself, you could deny the same to any fellow soul. And we all, every one of us, do more than hope for God’s mercy - we rely (not presume, though 😉 )upon it. Every time we go to Confession. We’re lost without it.

God’s blessings on you too. May you be moved to remember that it is God’s alone to condemn anyone to hell, that his ways and thoughts in this regard are beyond you and me, and may you receive from him the mercy and salvation that you so willingly (it seems) would have Him deny to others.
 
I condemn no one to hell, nor am I happy about it when souls are lost. You could easily take your indignation to the point of questioning God’s mercy if there’s anyone in hell at all.
 
I condemn no one to hell, nor am I happy about it when souls are lost. You could easily take your indignation to the point of questioning God’s mercy if there’s anyone in hell at all.
Don’t be ridiculous - of course there are certainly some who deserve to be in Hell. I don’t question the need for it, nor that God’s mercy is tempered with his justice in the face of those who deliberately, or negligently, and unrepentantly reject him.

I happen to believe, along with those much more knowledgeable and authoritative than myself, that we can at least HOPE for mercy, in the cases of children or the ignorant who have, through not the remotest fault of their own, no chance of expiating original sin by the means we have been fortunate enough to have available to us.

And when you state that the unbaptised cannot possibly attain heaven, then tell me what else are you doing but judging them to have been sent to Hell? Which, as I said, you cannot possibly know, nor, not being God, is it your business to make such a call.
 
Don’t be ridiculous - of course there are certainly some who deserve to be in Hell. I don’t question the need for it, nor that God’s mercy is tempered with his justice in the face of those who deliberately, or negligently, and unrepentantly reject him.

I happen to believe, along with those much more knowledgeable and authoritative than myself, that we can at least HOPE for mercy, in the cases of children or the ignorant who have, through not the remotest fault of their own, no chance of expiating original sin by the means we have been fortunate enough to have available to us.

And when you state that the unbaptised cannot possibly attain heaven, then tell me what else are you doing but judging them to have been sent to Hell? Which, as I said, you cannot possibly know, nor, not being God, is it your business to make such a call.
In all fairness to Laszlo, Lily, are you not judging them to be in heaven? We are not required dogmatically to believe one way or the other. You can hope for their salvation, but it is not assured.
 
You can hope for their salvation, but it is not assured.
If I may say something on this, the problem is that some people in this forum are saying you can’t. Or, at least that’s the message that I’m getting.
 
In all fairness to Laszlo, Lily, are you not judging them to be in heaven? We are not required dogmatically to believe one way or the other. You can hope for their salvation, but it is not assured.
Emphatically not judging them to be in heaven. Just hoping, as we all should, for the salvation of all souls, and hoping rather strongly in the case of babies and the invincibly ignorant 😉 :crossrc:
If I may say something on this, the problem is that some people in this forum are saying you can’t. Or, at least that’s the message that I’m getting.
That is precisely the message I too am getting from Laszlo here.
 
Those outside the Church, Maria, lack what’s called the formal motive of belief. In effect they don’t have the faith at all but instead an opinion based upon private reason. That’s why Protestantism is so insidious. Material heretics are Catholics who believe in Catholicism, i.e. accept the teaching authority of the Church but are in error regarding the heretical nature of some proposition to which they hold. Materially heretical Catholics are not pertinacious and would therefore reject the heretical proposition once their ignorance had been lifted. Protestants on the other hand reject in principle the teaching authority so they are by definition pertinacious. It’s not about good will and invincible ignorance. It’s about whether one has the faith at all, without which one cannot be saved.

Formal heretics positively destroy the formal motive of belief, whereas Protestants negatively lack it, so in effect it’s the same thing, a formal lack of faith.
Laszlo,

That understanding of Protestants who act in good faith goes against all the pre-Vatican II catechisms I was taught from. Examples:

“A heretic is a baptized person, still claiming to be a Christian, who knowingly and willfully denies or doubts a revealed truth taught by the Church. While all Protestants are heretics, still one who is born in Protestantism and does not know that the Catholic Church is the only true Church is, on account of his invincible ignorance, a heretic without knowing it. Such a one is called a material heretic, and God will not hold him responsible for his error as long as he knows no better.” (Religion: Doctrine and Practice by Francis B. Cassilly, S.J., 1942)

“Suppose, however, that there is a non-Catholic who firmly believes that the church to which he belongs is the true Church, and who has never–even in the past–had the slightest doubt of that fact–what will become of him? If he was validly baptized and never committed a mortal sin, he will be saved; because, believing himself a member of the true Church, he was doing all he could to serve God according to his knowledge and the dictates of his conscience. …] If, then, we found a Protestant who never committed a mortal sin after Baptism, and who never had the slightest doubt about the truth of his religion, that person would be saved; because, being baptized, he is a member of the Church, and being free from mortal sin he is a friend of God and could not in justice be condemned to Hell. Such a person would attend Mass and receive the Sacraments if he knew the Catholic Church to be the only true Church. …] Indeed, all persons who are baptized are children of the Church; but those among them who deny its teaching, reject its Sacraments, and refuse to submit to its lawful pastors, are rebellious children known as heretics.” (An Explanation of the Baltimore Catechism by Rev. Thomas L. Kinkead, 1891-1921)

Finally, the truths that must be believed explicitly in order to be saved are believed explicitly by Protestants; i.e., God’s existence, an eternal reward, the Trinity, the Incarnation, the immortality of the soul, the necessity of grace. Some theologians reduce these to the first two; yet others reduce them to the first four.

Maria
 
I can’t believe there are 100+ posts on this subject n I haven’t messed it up yet!
Here’s the latest:
BAPTISM is necessary for those who believe it is. Otherwise, yur home free.
Did I miss anybody?
 
In all fairness to Laszlo, Lily, are you not judging them to be in heaven? We are not required dogmatically to believe one way or the other. You can hope for their salvation, but it is not assured.
No, she is saying that God can make judgements that lazslo doesn’t agree with. She is saying she is not a heretic for believing that God can save innocent children from the fires of Hell! Limbo is not a doctrine. She is not presuming that everyone who dies without baptism is going to Heaven, she is merely saying God CAN and DOES bring people who are unbaptized to Heaven. Its amazing to me that those who follow the Catechism are called “Modernists”! Furthest thing from the truth. God has the power, authority, and Mercy to bring to Heaven whomever HE feels is worthy.

I can’t say it enough, how can an all loving God expect what is impossible???
 
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