Salvation outside Christianity...?

[Church_Militant]

The Iambic Pen:

Perhaps I’m wrong, as I am not Catholic, but wouldn’t the term “schismatics” refer also to those who do not accept the post-Vatican II popes?

Yup!

 

[reen12]

Good morning, javelin,

quote: javelin

Mere shades of meaning can turn an entire phrase – that is to be sure. I cannot say, though, that my command of the language is anything comparable to a surgeon’s command of his/her tools.

So, to clarify for my sake:

Is this wording “…access to the Grace required to overcome…” objectionable to you because of implied meaning? What implication is objectionable?

How are those objections alleviated by the wording of the other two quotes, including from “Amazing Grace”?

In other words, what is the song you hear?

Are you sure you don’t have a degree in Philosophy?

I’m not impugning your choice of words, for they are
those employed by the RCC itself.

quote:javelin

Is this wording “…access to the Grace required to overcome…” objectionable to you because of implied meaning? What implication is objectionable?

The meaning implied, whether intentional or no, is that
Grace is a “thing”. It is a reification of a spritiual reality,
which is based on relationship, not a “commodity” exchange.
Same thing [no pun intended] with concepts such as
the Treasury of Grace. How perfectly ghastly an image, IMHO.

The sole “reification” of a spiritual reality, that I know of, is the
Eucharist. {If anyone wishes to maintain that the
sacraments employ “outward signs” that “give” Grace,
I’m willing to weigh in, on that wording, as well.}

ourladyswarriors.org/faith/bc3-13.htm

quote: javelin

How are those objections alleviated by the wording of the other two quotes, including from “Amazing Grace”?"

To me, they bespeak relationship.

quote: javelin

In other words, what is the song you hear?

This is more complex, to convey with clarity.

Over the din of doctrinal disputes, sacramental systems,
who “mediates” what and how, surities over predestination
or no, comes the clear invitation [to relationship]:

quote: reen12

I cling to Christ, knowing that I am devoid of any

righteousness that would stand before the Father…*

that His righteousness is my righteousness.

That clear invitation is Amazing Grace.

quote: javelin

In light of your previous concern over the painting of mankind as inherently base and wretched (in Original Sin), I would be slightly surprised if you felt the last two quotes were closer to the Truth we all seek

.

But, you see, that’s just it. It is not Original Sin that
makes me a wretch, it is my actual sins. I can come
to Messiah for rescue from the wretchedness of sins
I have committed, even with the certain knowledge [based
on my track record] that I will sin again…and ask for His
succor in my wretchedness, as well as forgiveness.

Filled with joy at the surcease of this dismal reality,
sin, [in termsof salvation], I can serve God out of the
love and joy that comes with “hiding in the shelter of His wings”,
His righteousness.

It’s a song that comforts and strenghtens.

---

I think that the above goes a long way towards explaining
the “draw” that Evangelicalism has for former Catholics, BTW.

Catholics, trained well in the faith, can argue the RCC
position, logically, but the “heart has reasons which reason
knoweth not.”

Maybe that would have been the concise reply to:
“What song do you hear?”

---

I have not had the experience, in life, of exchanging views
with individuals who are as *acute *in challenging
a theological position, as are some posters to these forums, IMHO.
[Actually, there was one, now that I think of it. She is
the most brilliant individual I have ever known, as well
as a friend, of almost 50 years.]

I’m grateful for this experience.:tiphat:

Best,
reen12

 

[javelin]

reen12:

Good morning, javelin,

Are you sure you don’t have a degree in Philosophy?

Well, I wrote a paper once that my philosophy professor thought should be published, but other than that, no

reen12:

The meaning implied, whether intentional or no, is that
Grace is a “thing”. It is a reification of a spritiual reality,
which is based on relationship, not a “commodity” exchange.

Maybe it is my Catholic upbringing here, but I have no concept of Grace as anything other than a “thing”. It is God’s divine favor that He pours out upon His children. Certianly it is begotten through a relationship with Him, but I personally see that Grace as distinct from the relationship itself.

I also would never term Grace a “commodity”, for that (here’s that shade of meaning again ) implies it is something that is bought, traded, or sold – that a transaction takes place whereby we acquire it. While the imparting of Grace could be literally considered a transaction as one attains something one did not “have” previously, it is not, IMHO, something that can have any legalistic connotations, as in “I give you this, you give me Grace”. This is much more similar to the Protestant picture of justification through imputed righteousness. Their doctrine seems to be that we give Christ our sins and He in turn gives us (imputes upon us) His righteousness. This transaction is what justifies.

But I see Grace as divine action that molds us into His sons and daughters; and the divine blessings that He bestows upon us, driving away sin and keeping us close to His heart.

Certainly the term “Grace” is an awkward human attempt at describing a profound spiritual reality. Words simply cannot do it justice.

reen12:

Same thing [no pun intended] with concepts such as
the Treasury of Grace. How perfectly ghastly an image, IMHO.

The sole “reification” of a spiritual reality, that I know of, is the
Eucharist. {If anyone wishes to maintain that the
sacraments employ “outward signs” that “give” Grace,
I’m willing to weigh in, on that wording, as well.}

ourladyswarriors.org/faith/bc3-13.htm

quote: javelin

To me, they bespeak relationship.

Yes, but I also hear them ignoring the fact that we were created good, and in the image of God. I am not wretched, it is my sin that is wretched. I am a child of God who was ransomed from the sin that made me wretched by Jesus’ death and resurrection. The very Power of God that carries Jesus’ sacrifice to wash my sins away 2000 years later is Amazing Grace, and it most certianly “saves me”. But it doesn’t just “cover” my wretchedness – it wipes it away, as far as the East is from the West.

This reminds me of a discussion I had with a protestant minister. After a Bible study I sat it on, he asked (knowing I’m Catholic) if anything he said sounded wrong to me. One analogy he made when talking about forgiveness was that “when God looks at us [Christians], it’s like He’s looking at us through Jesus-colored glasses.” I explained to him that I thought the Gospel message was so much more than that – that Jesus doesn’t just hide our sins from God, He wipes them away. He makes us beautiful again instead of hiding us from His Father. To me, that is even better “Good News” than what I understand is the typical protestant understanding of forgiveness.

reen12:

Over the din of doctrinal disputes, sacramental systems,
who “mediates” what and how, surities over predestination
or no, comes the clear invitation [to relationship]:

That clear invitation is Amazing Grace.

And what a joy it would be if all believers were in the One Church so that din did not exist, and everyone could seek relationship with the True God, not a false image made by man!

(continued …)

 

[javelin]

reen12:

But, you see, that’s just it. It is not Original Sin that
makes me a wretch, it is my actual sins. I can come
to Messiah for rescue from the wretchedness of sins
I have committed, even with the certain knowledge [based
on my track record] that I will sin again…and ask for His
succor in my wretchedness, as well as forgiveness.

Filled with joy at the surcease of this dismal reality,
sin, [in termsof salvation], I can serve God out of the
love and joy that comes with “hiding in the shelter of His wings”,
His righteousness.

It’s a song that comforts and strenghtens.

I really think that message is stronger in Catholic doctrine than protestant doctrine, though. Certainly Christ is the refuge from sin, and we can seek solace in His Grace, that like the child who cannot reach the water fountain, He is always there to bridge the gap and uplift us, even when we don’t deserve it. The joy and comfort that relationship brings is certainly just as present in Catholic belief as any other.

So I really don’t see any difference in the protestant treatment of what you describe than the Catholic, other than perhaps a greater emphasis in protestantism on relationship, since they have no sacramental practice.

Peace to you, Maureen
javelin

 

[reen12]

Well, I wrote a paper once that my philosophy professor thought should be published, but other than that, no

I am not surprised!

I also would never term Grace a “commodity”, for that (here’s that shade of meaning again ) implies it is something that is bought, traded, or sold – that a transaction takes place whereby we acquire it

Tetzel, call your office!

Maybe it is my Catholic upbringing here, but I have no concept of Grace as anything other than a “thing”. It is God’s divine favor that He pours out upon His children.

OK. In an article I read early in the summer, Benedict XVI

was said to be urging that we should stress scriptural

sources, and let Aquinas remain in his place, as a theologian.

The Song of Songs doesn’t speak in terms of commodities.

The book of Psalms displays an intimacy with God, a

plea for His help…"…you drew me out of the mire…"

While the imparting of Grace could be literally considered a transaction as one attains something one did not “have” previously, it is not, IMHO, something that can have any legalistic connotations, as in “I give you this, you give me Grace”.

Well, see, this leads into a separate theological bog,

where questions of “is God under obligation” raise

the specter of God being under limitation.

Please, let’s not go there!]

This is much more similar to the Protestant picture of justification through imputed righteousness.

At least the term “imputed” has metaphysical footing,

as opposed to "how many days off purgatory will this

prayer obtain?"

Certainly the term “Grace” is an awkward human attempt at describing a profound spiritual reality. Words simply cannot do it justice.

Yes, you’ve said it more clearly than I have.

“…a profound spiritual reality…”

Can you see why terms like Treasury of Grace would

cause great distress to me, in light of this profound reality?

I’m in hopes that humanity will last for ages longer, and

that the Church is still in infancy, in terms of history.

That the way grace is spoken of will be presented in a

way that touches the heart, while illuminating the intellect.

Yes, but I also hear them ignoring the fact that we were created good, and in the image of God. I am not wretched, it is my sin that is wretched. I am a child of God who was ransomed from the sin that made me wretched by Jesus’ death and resurrection.

Oh, dear. Here’s where the rubber meets the road,

existentially.

If it is held that my soul is not wretched, but that it is my

sins that are wretched - I will never be convinced of that.

"Been down so long,

Bottom looks like up"

And when one is down that low, one* is* wretched. The

weight of sins can be crushing. I guess a person would

have to experience being [existentially] a wretched

wreck of a human being, before Grace seems amazing?

That is an existential reality, not solely an emotive

reality. Maybe this insight is born of experience {not

chronologically based, for I know of 30 year olds

who can testify to same.]

Wretch comes from the Old English, meaning “exile.”

If we wish to hold that, at birth, this individual was
redeemed from original sin, ontologically * that’s
fine. But many years later, far from the font, h/she
is a wretch and knows it. [wretch = exile, Old English]
Exiled from God, fellow human beings, and self.
It don’t get more wretched than that.

I doubt whether a person singing Amazing Grace is
honing in on the theological reality of the ontological
change that takes place in baptism [as opposed to
Luther’s imputed righteousness.]

What they may be expressing, is:

quote: reen12

I cling to Christ, knowing that I am devoid of any

righteousness that would stand before the Father…*

that His righteousness is

my righteousness.

When I’ve been unrighteous long enough, deeply enough,
amazing grace sings to me.

Best wishes, javelin,
reen*