Salvation Outside the Catholic Church

[Amandil]

No one EVER leaves the Catholic Church. Baptism leaves and indelible mark on the soul that can never be “erased”

Baptism does leave an indelible mark, but I can’t help but quake at what the devils make of those whom they convince to leave the Catholic faith.

 

[mdcpensive1]

No one EVER leaves the Catholic Church. Baptism leaves and indelible mark on the soul that can never be “erased”

What about ex-communication. Is that not a formal exit from the Church? Or just being put outside the Church with the hope of coming back into it? I know what you are saying, but I don’t know if this is an exception or if I have it wrong.

 

[Amandil]

What about ex-communication. Is that not a formal exit from the Church? Or just being put outside the Church with the hope of coming back into it? I know what you are saying, but I don’t know if this is an exception or if I have it wrong.

Excommunication can’t remove the mark either, its a ecclesiastical punishment, not an annulment of the sacrament.

Baptism “works” by virtue of the covenant enacted by Christ as High Priest, so nothing that we can do can negate it.

 

[mdcpensive1]

Excommunication can’t remove the mark either, its a ecclesiastical punishment, not an annulment of the sacrament.

Baptism “works” by virtue of the covenant enacted by Christ as High Priest, so nothing that we can do can negate it.

I agree it is a punishment and I don’t intend to say we can reverse Baptism, but is there free will involved with Church membership in formally leaving ?? By our free will decision to leave the Church are we out of it or as you say are still in whether we like it or not ? I am saying that is it possible to be out of the Church after we have Baptismal regeneration? Can we be a child of God and not in his Church ?

 

[Emerite]

Now, about salvation for those “within” the Church:

Our Bible study group is covering the Gospels of Matthew. Matthew, Chapter 7, states that we are admonished to judge not lest we be judged –we should not be critics or moral guardians of those around us because Jesus is the ultimate judge.

Jesus teaches us the Golden Rule, to seek the narrow gate, despite what others are doing, and to avoid false prophets who come to us in sheep’s clothing. We learned that in seeking the narrow gate toward our salvation, we must be obedient to God, do the will of the Father, love God and imitate Christ, nurture our relationship with God through prayer, give from the heart, and to follow the Beatitudes, as Christ taught on the Sermon on the Mount, which are
“Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom on heaven; Blessed are they who mourn, for they will be comforted; Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the land; Blessed are they who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be satisfied; Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy; Blessed are the clean of heart, for they will see God; Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God; Blessed are they who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."

 

[Amandil]

I agree it is a punishment and I don’t intend to say we can reverse Baptism, but is there free will involved with Church membership in formally leaving ?? By our free will decision to leave the Church are we out of it or as you say are still in whether we like it or not ? I am saying that is it possible to be out of the Church after we have Baptismal regeneration? Can we be a child of God and not in his Church ?

Yes, baptismal generation necessarily requires faithfulness to the covenant and the vows we made at baptism/confirmations.

It is very possible to be outside of the Church by the loss of sanctifying grace (which is our participation in the divine life of God), but the virtue of our baptism makes re-entry into a state of grace rather easy: the sacrament of confession.

Sanctifying grace, having the divine life of God in us, is like being pregnant; there’s no way to be halfway pregnant, just as theres’s no way to be halfway spiritually alive (or dead), you either posses divine life, or you don’t.

And if you openly defy or object to the truth of the Church after baptism, then one has to at least wonder if that person has sanctifying grace.

 

[Amandil]

Now, about salvation for those “within” the Church:

Our Bible study group is covering the Gospels of Matthew. Matthew, Chapter 7, states that we are admonished to judge not lest we be judged –we should not be critics or moral guardians of those around us because Jesus is the ultimate judge.

That’s not what Jesus is saying. That is the utter antithesis of the episode of Kain and Abel when God asks Kain, “where is your brother?” and Kain responds, “I don’t know, am I my brother’s keeper?”

The obvious answer to Kain’s question is yes. God spends almost the entire whole of Scripture trying to convey that answer.

We are our brother’s/sister’s keeper.

What Jesus is saying is that we should not “judge”(condemn) people in our speech(e.g. "You thief!, you’re going to hell!)

He is not saying that we shouldn’t call people out for sinful behavior(e.g.: Stealing is sinful and you shouldn’t do that).

We have a solemn responsibility to our brothers and sisters in Christ to evangelize them, to provide fraternal correction if we see them sinning.

To not criticize them or correct them is not love, its is to lie to them by giving implicit approval to their sinful behavior. It also by omission makes us culpable in a certain respect because as persons they have the right to know, even if they don’t want to, that their actions are not in accord with God’s will.

 

[mdcpensive1]

Yes, baptismal generation necessarily requires faithfulness to the covenant and the vows we made at baptism/confirmations.

It is very possible to be outside of the Church by the loss of sanctifying grace (which is our participation in the divine life of God), but the virtue of our baptism makes re-entry into a state of grace rather easy: the sacrament of confession.

Sanctifying grace, having the divine life of God in us, is like being pregnant; there’s no way to be halfway pregnant, just as theres’s no way to be halfway spiritually alive (or dead), you either posses divine life, or you don’t.

And if you openly defy or object to the truth of the Church after baptism, then one has to at least wonder if that person has sanctifying grace.

I know that loss of Sanctifying Grace after Baptism makes you a dormant member of the Church for lack of Sanctifying Grace. but I was talking about a formal declaration of leaving the Church by free will that is not to be construed with mortal sin. Can that put you outside the Church. I wonder what Thomas Aquinas would say? (wwtas)

 

[Amandil]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

I know that loss of Sanctifying Grace after Baptism makes you a dormant member of the Church for lack of Sanctifying Grace. but I was talking about a formal declaration of leaving the Church by free will that is not to be construed with mortal sin. Can that put you outside the Church. I wonder what Thomas Aquinas would say? (wwtas)

Unless I’m mistaken Scism, Apostasy, and Heresy are all mortal sins which place you outside of the Church.

 

[dtreimer]

Not everybody who does a heartfelt and honest search for the truth ends up deciding to be Catholic.

Great point. My experience with family/friends corroborates that also. And so it goes back to “where does that leave them”?

 

[rcwitness]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

Unless I’m mistaken Scism, Apostasy, and Heresy are all mortal sins which place you outside of the Church.

But how do you define ‘outside the Church’?

And how does the Church?

Heresy is NOT the same as Apostacy by a long shot!

Heresy severs full Communion, but does that mean all Communion with Jesus? I think not! And I dont think this is what the Church Teaches. Though, Trent uses the term anethema very much, so you could have an arguement in those council Teachings.

This is not a favorite topic of mine. I don’t like to hear people declaring others ‘completely out of Communion with Jesus’ on the grounds they struggle in areas. But I understand when we leave the Sacrament of the Eucharist it goes beyond a simple struggle to a profound departure. But still, I dont like to define the depth of individuals ‘departure’. I try to minister to those who seek better understanding of Teachings, and those who are in danger of even believing the basic Gospel

Michael

 

[TRH1292]

But how do you define ‘outside the Church’?

And how does the Church?

Heresy is NOT the same as Apostacy by a long shot!

Heresy severs full Communion, but does that mean all Communion with Jesus? I think not! And I dont think this is what the Church Teaches. Though, Trent uses the term anethema very much, so you could have an arguement in those council Teachings.

This is not a favorite topic of mine. I don’t like to hear people declaring others ‘completely out of Communion with Jesus’ on the grounds they struggle in areas. But I understand when we leave the Sacrament of the Eucharist it goes beyond a simple struggle to a profound departure. But still, I dont like to define the depth of individuals ‘departure’. I try to minister to those who seek better understanding of Teachings, and those who are in danger of even believing the basic Gospel

Michael

What does that mean? The Sin of heresy is not a mistake somebody makes, but the obstinate denial of key truths of the faith by a Church member. When one is in a state of mortal sin, one is not cut off from communion with Jesus in the sense that Jesus no longer loves that person or is willing to forgive them. But we are cut off from communion in the sense that those in mortal sin are spiritually dead, having separated themselves from God.

 

[MysticMansion]

The devil, the father of all lies, has a reputation of tempting faithful Catholic people by attempting to confuse their faith by spreading heresy. He could not do this by beginning with the lie he must begin with truth and slowly mislead the child of God from light into darkness.

The same is true when we give too much consideration to any human agency. Only the Catholic Church is a divine organism. It is the living mystical body of Christ all other groups, religions, faiths, sects etc. are all human agencies even EWTN. All things outside of the Church must be suspect. The letter of the law inside the church must be obeyed and if you smart loved. That does not mean that all priests and bishops are presenting our faith honestly without their own agendas. Always go back to the church to find the truth and the correct path.

 

[Abu]

St John Paul II is strikingly clear in emphasizing the mercy of God and the accessibility of grace for salvation:
“The universality of salvation means that it is granted not only to those who explicitly believe in Christ and have entered the Church. Since salvation is offered to all, it must be made concretely available to all. But it is clear that today, as in the past, many people do not have an opportunity to come to know or accept the gospel revelation or to enter the Church. The social and cultural conditions in which they live do not permit this, and frequently they have been brought up in other religious traditions. For such people salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them formally part of the Church but enlightens them in a way which is accommodated to their spiritual and material situation. This grace comes from Christ; it is the result of His Sacrifice and is communicated by the Holy Spirit. It enables each person to attain salvation through his or her free cooperation.” (Pope John Paul II, Redemptoris Missio, 1990, 10).

 

[Amandil]

What does that mean? The Sin of heresy is not a mistake somebody makes, but the obstinate denial of key truths of the faith by a Church member. When one is in a state of mortal sin, one is not cut off from communion with Jesus in the sense that Jesus no longer loves that person or is willing to forgive them. But we are cut off from communion in the sense that those in mortal sin are spiritually dead, having separated themselves from God.

Thank you.

rcwitness:

But how do you define ‘outside the Church’?

And how does the Church?

Heresy is NOT the same as Apostacy by a long shot!

I never said that it was. I said that they are both mortal sins, that’s all.

Outside the Church means separated from the mystical Body of Christ. That in no way means that the person is separated from the love of Jesus, they have that by virtue of their baptism. But by rejecting revealed truths of the Catholic Faith and refusing ecclesiastical correction(because that is actually how one becomes a heretic, not by merely holding heterodox opinions), and refusing to repent of their error, they by definition do not have Christ.

Heresy severs full Communion, but does that mean all Communion with Jesus? I think not! And I dont think this is what the Church Teaches. Though, Trent uses the term anethema very much, so you could have an arguement in those council Teachings.

Heresy DOES sever communion with Jesus. You cannot have communion with Jesus without communion with the Church which is His Body. That’s just basic and proper ecclesiology.

Surely that doesn’t mean that they can’t regain that communion, but that would again require their repentance and the conforming of their minds with the teachings of the Church.

This is not a favorite topic of mine. I don’t like to hear people declaring others ‘completely out of Communion with Jesus’ on the grounds they struggle in areas. But I understand when we leave the Sacrament of the Eucharist it goes beyond a simple struggle to a profound departure. But still, I dont like to define the depth of individuals ‘departure’. I try to minister to those who seek better understanding of Teachings, and those who are in danger of even believing the basic Gospel

Michael

I understand you pastoral concern, but I don’t think that it does justice to the person either to water-down the severity of the problem and their condition.

 

[dtreimer]

St John Paul II is strikingly clear in emphasizing the mercy of God and the accessibility of grace for salvation:
“The universality of salvation means that it is granted not only to those who explicitly believe in Christ and have entered the Church. Since salvation is offered to all, it must be made concretely available to all. But it is clear that today, as in the past, many people do not have an opportunity to come to know or accept the gospel revelation or to enter the Church. The social and cultural conditions in which they live do not permit this, and frequently they have been brought up in other religious traditions. For such people salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them formally part of the Church but enlightens them in a way which is accommodated to their spiritual and material situation. This grace comes from Christ; it is the result of His Sacrifice and is communicated by the Holy Spirit. It enables each person to attain salvation through his or her free cooperation.” (Pope John Paul II, Redemptoris Missio, 1990, 10).

That’s excellent … but is it dogmatic Abu?

 

[Sirach2]

That’s excellent … but is it dogmatic Abu?

Yes it is, dtreimer, happy to say, since Pope John Paul II is quoting directly from Vatican II Council document, Gaudium et Spes. After the part that Abu posted from the Redemptoris Missio encyclical, John Paul’s next paragraph reads:

For this reason the Council, after affirming the centrality of the Paschal Mystery, went on to declare that "this applies not only to Christians but to all people of good will in whose hearts grace is secretly at work. Since Christ died for everyone, and since the ultimate calling of each of us comes from God and is therefore a universal one, we are obliged to hold that the Holy Spirit offers everyone the possibility of sharing in this Paschal Mystery in a manner known to God."19

19. Pastoral Constitution on the Church in the Modern World Gaudium et Spes, 22.

 

[dtreimer]

Yes it is, dtreimer, happy to say, since Pope John Paul II is quoting directly from Vatican II Council document, Gaudium et Spes. After the part that Abu posted from the Redemptoris Missio encyclical, John Paul’s next paragraph reads:

Thanks you, my friend. This seems to provide a pretty definitive answer to my original question (100+ posts ago). Nonetheless, I will continue to pray for all of our separated brothers and sisters to come home. Peace

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Since’s the OP’s is a hypothetical scenario, I don’t think the probability of the event is relevant. But you are correct, nonetheless, an invincibly ignorant Catholic is a rare occurrence.

I beg to differ.

Invisible ignorance runs amok on our people, and has been for ages. I was one of those and I am definitely not alone and not the exception to the rule.

While in college in the 80’s and to this day - we are still lacking a good nationwide program to keep our young adults in the Church. They were poorly catechized and are unprepared to face the challenges from atheists and from protestantism, both of whom are really strong in most colleges. Which means that our foundational program needs to get stronger as well.

It wasn’t until we started to get fired up people from protestantism that things started to turn around. Look at this website, for example - How many of the great folks working for Catholic Answers are cradle Catholics?

It is a shame that I had to learn form them instead of the cradle crowd. And that is not to take away from them, but that we should have already have people like them in place educating and defending the faith.

Also, make no mistake. I take full responsibility on my lack of effort, but I will not take responsibility for the lack of programs and the poor foundational religious education I received. I should have pushed harder and have more initiative, but like many Catholics, when College came - I took the high road… shame on me.

I came back to Christianity, not through Catholicism but through Protestantism. And the craziest thing was that the Bible made me Catholic again. Never - and I mean never did I read the Bible as much in my Catholic upbringing - and don’t bring up how we read it at Mass. I mean read it every day and make it a part of my life. This was never emphasized in my foundational upbringing. There is invisible ignorance here.

Thank God things are changing for the better, slowly but changing nonetheless.

I have rambled enough, .

For the OP - Have you read Dominus Iesus? If not, I am confident it will help you understand Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus better.

 

[dtreimer]

I beg to differ.

Invisible ignorance runs amok on our people, and has been for ages. I was one of those and I am definitely not alone and not the exception to the rule.

While in college in the 80’s and to this day - we are still lacking a good nationwide program to keep our young adults in the Church. They were poorly catechized and are unprepared to face the challenges from atheists and from protestantism, both of whom are really strong in most colleges. Which means that our foundational program needs to get stronger as well.

It wasn’t until we started to get fired up people from protestantism that things started to turn around. Look at this website, for example - How many of the great folks working for Catholic Answers are cradle Catholics?

It is a shame that I had to learn form them instead of the cradle crowd. And that is not to take away from them, but that we should have already have people like them in place educating and defending the faith.

Also, make no mistake. I take full responsibility on my lack of effort, but I will not take responsibility for the lack of programs and the poor foundational religious education I received. I should have pushed harder and have more initiative, but like many Catholics, when College came - I took the high road… shame on me.

I came back to Christianity, not through Catholicism but through Protestantism. And the craziest thing was that the Bible made me Catholic again. Never - and I mean never did I read the Bible as much in my Catholic upbringing - and don’t bring up how we read it at Mass. I mean read it every day and make it a part of my life. This was never emphasized in my foundational upbringing. There is invisible ignorance here.

Thank God things are changing for the better, slowly but changing nonetheless.

I have rambled enough, .

For the OP - Have you read Dominus Iesus? If not, I am confident it will help you understand Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus better.

Great insights (and very similar to my own journey)! I will read what you’ve referenced and thanks for the link. Peace, brother.