Salvation Outside the Catholic Church

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No Catholics should be encouraging, supporting or trying to justify a Catholic walking away from their faith. We should be doing all we can to stop them leaving and encouraging them to stay but it seems some people don’t seem to care about that.
We just cannot know for certain what lies in the consciences of some people who leave. It is rash judgment to condemn them to hell with a subjective opinion that they truly ARE vincibly ignorant. Yes, we may encourage them, and ought to do so, but we cannot enter their minds and know their thinking! Only God is supreme judge.

The Key word here is “full knowledge”. This is perhaps the reason that someone may not be properly catechized and thus their leaving was not with “full knowledge”. This reference to “full knowledge” also provides the “caveat” necessary in such statements for none can truly know what another knows and understands therefore one cannot say with complete certainly that one is "going to hell".

The Church can say that, under these conditions, if certain criteria are met, then salvation is lost. What cannot be discerned by other humans is the specifics of each individual’s soul and spiritual state.
 
None of that is invincible ignorance. Apart from my extreme example (which I don’t think actually exists) of how a Catholic possibly could be invincibly ignorant Catholics cannot be invincibly ignorant. They can be vincibly ignorant.
Too many people looking for an easy way out by attacking the Catholic Church. The typical excuse is “oh dear. I don’t know or understand the Church teachings so I’m walking away from the Church because I am invincibly ignorant”!!
No Catholics should be encouraging, supporting or trying to justify a Catholic walking away from their faith. We should be doing all we can to stop them leaving and encouraging them to stay but it seems some people don’t seem to care about that.
Your bitterness is palpable, and I will pray for you. I think anyone who takes the time to participate in a thread like this “cares.” I think anyone who takes the time to ask such questions and solicit answers “cares.” This inquiry is not meant to “justify” a Catholic from leaving the Church. Just to be clear – I am never leaving the Church and I thank God for bringing me back to Truth. I forgive your flippancy and accusations.

I have never experienced your “typical excuse” as written above – actually, you can add it to your “silly” list. You clearly underestimate the enemy’s ability to lure sincere Christ-seekers out of the ancient Church and into a modern Christianity that (as I’ve experienced myself) really does have the ring of truth and an intellectual appeal. Some of the most loving, caring and Christ-centered people I know are former Catholics who have – in their mind – been born again. None of them left because they “didn’t understand the teaching and wanted to be considered invincibly ignorant.” Silly indeed. They left because the enemy scratched where they itched. And I feel like I’m repeating myself to you but you’re just not processing it. As I said, I’ll pray for you.
 
Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Romans 10:13
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Romans 10:9
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Salvation is a gift of God not any particular church.
“For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.” Rom. 2:13 Maybe you’d be wise to find out which law he is referencing because he is not referring to the Sinai code.
 
“For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.” Rom. 2:13 Maybe you’d be wise to find out which law he is referencing because he is not referring to the Sinai code.
Many Baptists have a rather limited idea of covenant and how Covenant is essential to the Christian faith. Their ideas are so strictly legalistic that the true idea of covenant is practically alien to their understanding. If they use it, its merely a discriptive name for the writings of the Bible which are not the Hebrew Scriptures.

Thank Luther and William of Ockham.
 
Many Baptists have a rather limited idea of covenant and how Covenant is essential to the Christian faith. Their ideas are so strictly legalistic that the true idea of covenant is practically alien to their understanding. If they use it, its merely a discriptive name for the writings of the Bible which are not the Hebrew Scriptures.

Thank Luther and William of Ockham.
I am not a Baptist nor am I affiliated with nor support any contemporary religious organization.
 
Pardon me, but did I say thtoat you were?
No you did not specifically state that I maybe Baptist or any other religious identity.
But of the common soteriological assumptions floating Christianity’s boat today they are unilaterally shot down by the existence of Rom. 2:13.
 
No you did not specifically state that I maybe Baptist or any other religious identity.
But of the common soteriological assumptions floating Christianity’s boat today they are unilaterally shot down by the existence of Rom. 2:13.
Exactly what are you reading into it? Because I don’t think that Paul is saying what you’re trying to suggest.
 
“For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.” Rom. 2:13 Maybe you’d be wise to find out which law he is referencing because he is not referring to the Sinai code.
Catholics and Jews do not have a problem with the passage you quote when properly understood. Those who were not under the law (gentiles) had to use reason and conscience to be judged. Those with the law (Jews) will be judged more harshly because they had knowledge of what God required. It makes sense to me.
 
Catholics and Jews do not have a problem with the passage you quote when properly understood. Those who were not under the law (gentiles) had to use reason and conscience to be judged. Those with the law (Jews) will be judged more harshly because they had knowledge of what God required. It makes sense to me.
Friend Paul is NOT REFERENCING THE SINAI CODE OF LAW! IS THIS CLEAR?
 
Friend Paul is NOT REFERENCING THE SINAI CODE OF LAW! IS THIS CLEAR?
You’re typing seems to suggest that you’re not even really sure of what you believe.

The argument isn’t whether or not Paul is referencing the Sinai Covenant.

The argument you are attempting to make is that Romans 2:14 negates the New Covenant that Christ established in the Church. And it most certainly does not!

Lets look at the whole context:
[6] For he will render to every man according to his works:
[7] to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;
[8] but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.
[9] There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek,
[10] but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek.
[11]** For God shows no partiality.**
[12] All who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.
[13] For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.
[14] When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.
[15] They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them
[16] on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

Paul is explaining that all men are equally under the dominion of sin, Jews and Gentiles alike.

In either case Paul is only considering those Jews and Gentiles who lived before the advent of Christ.

You’re ripping the verse out of context and committing eisegesis, or “reading into” his words what you want to believe.


Your problem is that you cannot read verses of Paul in isolation and insist that that single verse is the completion of Paul’s thought. Far from it. Paul extends his thoughts all the way through to Romans 11.

In Romans 1 & 2 Paul establishes that all are under the dominion of sin.

In Romans 3 reaffirms that “none is righteous” through the law, either the Sinai Covenant OR the natural law of the Gentiles. Instead the only way one can be righteous before God is by faith.

In Romans 4 Paul establishes how faith makes man righteous before God.

In Romans 5 Paul establishes that it is only by grace and through faith in Christ that man can be justified(made righteous).

In Romans 6 Paul explains how we are made righteous in Christ; through Baptism.

In Romans 7 Paul begins to explain the mystical union between Christ and the baptized is the reality which is symbolized between man and wife in marriage. That it is the indissoluble Covenant bond which makes us one with the New Adam and thus children of God.

In Romans 8 Paul explains that by this Union with Christ we also receive His Spirit within us.

In Romans 9 Paul explains that salvation is not for Jews alone and that God has the perfect right to save whom He wills.

In Romans 10 Paul explains that salvation is for believers in Christ.

In Romans 11 Paul explains that Israel’s rejection is not final, nor are the Gentiles necessarily privileged, but that God has the power to graft in both because of faith, just as He can cut off both because of disbelief.

In another letter Paul also explicitly writes this:

“…You may know how to behave in the household of God, which is the Church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.”(1 Tim 3:15)

The Church is the Body of Christ, not “bodies”. There is only one Body, just as the is only, “one Lord, one Faith, one Baptism.”(Eph 4:5; also written by Paul.

I’m sorry, but your sadly mistaken.
 
You’re typing seems to suggest that you’re not even really sure of what you believe.

The argument isn’t whether or not Paul is referencing the Sinai Covenant.

The argument you are attempting to make is that Romans 2:14 negates the New Covenant that Christ established in the Church. And it most certainly does not!

(Edited)

I’m sorry, but your sadly mistaken.
I am fully aware of what I know and what I believe. The law Paul is referencing is the small narrow door that each individual must have the faith to use or not be added to the body of Christ. There are no exceptions.
 
I am fully aware of what I know and what I believe. The law Paul is referencing is the small narrow door that each individual must have the faith to use or not be added to the body of Christ. There are no exceptions.
Yes, well said…what “I” believe, whether or not it is true. It is clear that nobody will change your erroneous interpretation of that scripture. :rolleyes: Obviously, you are not familiar with Catholic Church teachings about salvation, but prefer your own.
 
Yes, well said…what “I” believe, whether or not it is true. It is clear that nobody will change your erroneous interpretation of that scripture. :rolleyes: Obviously, you are not familiar with Catholic Church teachings about salvation, but prefer your own.
Doesn’t He clearly and emphatically state that there are only a very few that ever find out what the small narrow door that is entry Way into God’s kingdom actually is? (Edited) I am very familiar with the soteriological assumptive of Catholicism and every other contemporary church’s soteriological procedure and I hotly promote that they are entirely false. Is this clear?
 
I am fully aware of what I know and what I believe. The law Paul is referencing is the small narrow door that each individual must have the faith to use or not be added to the body of Christ. There are no exceptions.
It seems rather that you’re saying “there are no exceptions besides what I believe to be true.”

If that’s what you’re saying then it sorely begs the question.

The Bible is explicit that the “narrow door” is Christ. Not some law apart from Christ.

The Bible is also explicit that the Body of Christ is the Church. Meaning you don’t wind up on the other side of the “narrow door” without passing through the door which is Christ, which is also His Body.
 
It seems rather that you’re saying "there are no exceptions besides what I believe to be true."

If that’s what you’re saying then it sorely begs the question.
Totally agree. ‘Nuf’ said!!
 
Your bitterness is palpable, and I will pray for you. I think anyone who takes the time to participate in a thread like this “cares.” I think anyone who takes the time to ask such questions and solicit answers “cares.” This inquiry is not meant to “justify” a Catholic from leaving the Church. Just to be clear – I am never leaving the Church and I thank God for bringing me back to Truth. I forgive your flippancy and accusations.

I have never experienced your “typical excuse” as written above – actually, you can add it to your “silly” list. You clearly underestimate the enemy’s ability to lure sincere Christ-seekers out of the ancient Church and into a modern Christianity that (as I’ve experienced myself) really does have the ring of truth and an intellectual appeal. Some of the most loving, caring and Christ-centered people I know are former Catholics who have – in their mind – been born again. None of them left because they “didn’t understand the teaching and wanted to be considered invincibly ignorant.” Silly indeed. They left because the enemy scratched where they itched. And I feel like I’m repeating myself to you but you’re just not processing it. As I said, I’ll pray for you.
You should be praying for those who have sinned by walking away from the Church instead of patting them on the head and telling them its okay to walk away because theywill be saved anyway and they don’t need the Church. You should be doing everything in your power to STOP such people leaving the Church.
 
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