Salvation outside the Church

[Mike316]

Hello all, I searched the forum trying to get more information on the subject but failed. I have read all I can and wonder with amazement why 1960 years worth of searching the word by the great men of God, why the church changed the outside the church no salvation apparent theory. I have read things like “if” a man would have agreed with the church “if” he knew it and “if” he would have accepted Christ then he has attained salavation outside the church. Are you kidding me? Did Vatican II change the church just to make it easier to accept. I’m a bit confused and I know there are many here who know much more than a new Catholic. God bless you all.

 

[rskempf]

Hi - this is a rather tricky subject. It is best to consider the subject considering and contemplating the church that Jesus Christ established before his passion and death. Forget for a moment about labels such as catholic, episcopal, anglican, presbyterian, protestant, evangelical, etc.

We can all agree that Jesus saved us with his sacrafice. He said before he left us that he would send the Holy Spirit. He gave Peter the keys and established a church to guide us through the ages.

What we have to do is beleive. Our creator and savior after all would not come to save us and then leave us to the “wolves.” His church is our guide.

If anyone knows this history and still rejects the church Jesus established, then they are risking their salvation.

The catholic church reiterated this truth, that many people knew before anyway, to remind this modern busy world what is really important.

I hope this helps.

 

[God_sent]

I would agree with what has been spoken thus far, but allow me a moment of your time because not all teachings are easy to grasp, I would first say that you must consider there is only one Church with 100% truth, only one, you then must agree that if you have been lead and you come toward that truth, so as to embrace the complete teachings of Christ , and you come to the very doors (Catholic), and for whatever reason you refuse to go through those doors so as to embrace the truth…you have placed yourself outside (the truth) , that alone in toatality can truly save you…(God alone knows your heart and he will judge)…but the Bride is the voice of Christ on Earth the Holy Spirit is the soul of the Church and her teachings on faith/morals can never mislead you, otherwise satan has conquered…(I think not) :angel1:, therefore anyone outside the realm of Her Truth (the Brides) is subject to the loss of their souls, if they do not go in search of the truth and stop excepting there parents faith etc…they must ask/seek/knock and the truth will be given to them, few study the history of the Church and few grasp the true beauty of her teachings, that lead a soul to it’s eternal rewards. To conclude is to say that the emanating Power of Christ sacrifice upon the Cross (is received through the hearts of men)as only through the grace of His instituted Sacraments, through his chosen apostles and successors. Therefore in truth all who seek the truth are drawn up in the arms of the Brides embrace, whether they realize it or not, everyone on earth will pass through the merits of the Church in order to arrive at the throne of our Lord Jesus Christ. Deo Gracious…Praise Be Jesus…Pray,Pray,Pray…prayers sent

 

[SouthpawLink]

Hello all, I searched the forum trying to get more information on the subject but failed. I have read all I can and wonder with amazement why 1960 years worth of searching the word by the great men of God, why the church changed the outside the church no salvation apparent theory. I have read things like “if” a man would have agreed with the church “if” he knew it and “if” he would have accepted Christ then he has attained salavation outside the church. Are you kidding me? Did Vatican II change the church just to make it easier to accept. I’m a bit confused and I know there are many here who know much more than a new Catholic. God bless you all.

To the best of my knowledge, the necessity to belong to the Church for salvation is a necessity of means, which means that all are obliged to enter into her. Not everyone must be an actual (in re) member, but it is sufficient enough for some to belong to her in desire (in voto). This desire does not need to be explicit, such as is the case with catechumens, so people can be saved with only an implicit desire to enter into the Church. This implicit desire, however, must be accompanied by supernatural faith (which includes explicit belief in the existence of God, that He is a Remunerator, in the Blessed Trinity and in the Incarnation of Christ) and perfect charity (perfect contrition for sin and love of God for the sake of Himself). A person who dies with supernatural faith and perfect charity dies united to the Church in voto, and is thus saved.

Some good sources are the August 1949 Letter of the Holy Office (Suprema Haec Sacra), Msgr. Fenton’s various artices on the issue (The Church’s Meaning of the Church’s Necessity for Salvation - 1951; The Catholic Church and Salvation - 1958; Contemporary Questions about Membership in the Church - 1961), and Fr. Michael Muller’s The Catholic Dogma: Extra Ecclesiam Nullus omnio Salvatur.

 

[Third_Day]

**Did Vatican II change the church just to make it easier to accept. **I’m a bit confused and I know there are many here who know much more than a new Catholic. God bless you all.

Vatican II didn’t change anything.

From Vatican II
Decree on Ecumenism
For it is only through Christ’s Catholic Church, which is “the all-embracing means of salvation,” that they can benefit fully from the means of salvation

LUMEN GENTIUM
14. This Sacred Council wishes to turn its attention firstly to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism(124) and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.

 

[Robert_Burns]

Hello all, I searched the forum trying to get more information on the subject but failed. I have read all I can and wonder with amazement why 1960 years worth of searching the word by the great men of God, why the church changed the outside the church no salvation apparent theory. I have read things like “if” a man would have agreed with the church “if” he knew it and “if” he would have accepted Christ then he has attained salavation outside the church. Are you kidding me? Did Vatican II change the church just to make it easier to accept. I’m a bit confused and I know there are many here who know much more than a new Catholic. God bless you all.

No one is saved by a false religion. All protestant religions are false religions. Everyone who is saved is saved because of the merits of the Catholic religion. In that sense , nothing has changed. There may be many Protestants who embrace the tenets of Catholicism and reject none of them. Will they be saved? Its hard to say. Only GOD knows.

 

[JM3]

Lumen Gentium: vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

1. This Sacred Council wishes to turn its attention firstly to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism(124) and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.

They are fully incorporated in the society of the Church who, possessing the Spirit of Christ accept her entire system and all the means of salvation given to her, and are united with her as part of her visible bodily structure and through her with Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. The bonds which bind men to the Church in a visible way are profession of faith, the sacraments, and ecclesiastical government and communion. He is not saved, however, who, though part of the body of the Church, does not persevere in charity. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but, as it were, only in a “bodily” manner and not “in his heart.”(12*) All the Church’s children should remember that their exalted status is to be attributed not to their own merits but to the special grace of Christ. If they fail moreover to respond to that grace in thought, word and deed, not only shall they not be saved but they will be the more severely judged.(13*)

Catechumens who, moved by the Holy Spirit, seek with explicit intention to be incorporated into the Church are by that very intention joined with her. With love and solicitude Mother Church already embraces them as her own.

1. The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. (14*) For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. (15*) They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God.(16*) They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood. In all of Christ’s disciples the Spirit arouses the desire to be peacefully united, in the manner determined by Christ, as one flock under one shepherd, and He prompts them to pursue this end. (17*) Mother Church never ceases to pray, hope and work that this may come about. She exhorts her children to purification and renewal so that the sign of Christ may shine more brightly over the face of the earth.
2. Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126) But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohammedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20*) She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life. But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator.(129) Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair. Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, “Preach the Gospel to every creature”,(130) the Church fosters the missions with care and attention.

The Church has always taught this.

 

[chypmonk]

The Church has never changed the dogma of the necessity of being a member of the Church for salvation.

While as quoted above from LG VaticanII it is a true statement:
“Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.”

It does not follow that those who do not know the Catholic Church as necessary are saved.

Membership is necessary which is only by sacramental baptism:
“In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church.” (LG Vat. II-above)

LG VatII quoted above
“Catechumens who, moved by the Holy Spirit, seek with explicit intention to be incorporated into the Church are by that very intention joined with her. With love and solicitude Mother Church already embraces them as her own.”
Catechumens are NOT members although they are embraced AS the Church;s own they are not YET incorporated.

And the Church has dogmatically taught
Pope Eugene IV, The Council of Florence, “Exultate Deo,” Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra:* “Holy baptism, which is the gateway to the spiritual life, holds the first place among all the sacraments; through it we are made members of Christ and of the body of the Church.* And since death entered the universe through the first man, **‘unless **we are born again of water and the Spirit, we cannot,’ as the Truth says, ‘enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:5]. *The matter of this sacrament is real and natural water.” DZ 696

Dr. Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Membership in the Church, p. 309:
“The so-called blood Baptism and the Baptism of desire, it is true, replace Baptism by water (sic) in so far as the communication of grace is concerned, but do not effect incorporation into the Church…’”

Dr. Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Membership in the Church, p. 309:
“3. The Fathers draw a sharp line of separation between Catechumens and ‘the faithful.’”

Pope Gregory XVI, Summo Iugiter Studio, May 27, 1832, on no salvation outside the Church:
**“Official acts of the Church proclaim the same dogma. Thus, in the decree on faith which Innocent III published with the synod of Lateran IV, these things are written: ‘There is one universal Church of all the faithful **outside of which no one is saved.’” (link to encyclical)

As Pope B16 has taught we must avoid a discontinuity of the Faith-- meaning to separate Vatican II out of the context of the WHOLE tradition and infallible teachings of the Church.

 

[Robert_Burns]

The Church has never changed the dogma of the necessity of being a member of the Church for salvation.

While as quoted above from LG VaticanII it is a true statement:
“Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.”

It does not follow that those who do not know the Catholic Church as necessary are saved.

Membership is necessary which is only by sacramental baptism:
“In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church.” (LG Vat. II-above)

LG VatII quoted above
“Catechumens who, moved by the Holy Spirit, seek with explicit intention to be incorporated into the Church are by that very intention joined with her. With love and solicitude Mother Church already embraces them as her own.”
Catechumens are NOT members although they are embraced AS the Church;s own they are not YET incorporated.

And the Church has dogmatically taught
Pope Eugene IV, The Council of Florence, “Exultate Deo,” Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra:* “Holy baptism, which is the gateway to the spiritual life, holds the first place among all the sacraments; through it we are made members of Christ and of the body of the Church.* And since death entered the universe through the first man, **‘unless **we are born again of water and the Spirit, we cannot,’ as the Truth says, ‘enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:5]. *The matter of this sacrament is real and natural water.” DZ 696

Dr. Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Membership in the Church, p. 309:
“The so-called blood Baptism and the Baptism of desire, it is true, replace Baptism by water (sic) in so far as the communication of grace is concerned, but do not effect incorporation into the Church…’”

Dr. Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Membership in the Church, p. 309:
“3. The Fathers draw a sharp line of separation between Catechumens and ‘the faithful.’”

Pope Gregory XVI, Summo Iugiter Studio, May 27, 1832, on no salvation outside the Church:
**“Official acts of the Church proclaim the same dogma. Thus, in the decree on faith which Innocent III published with the synod of Lateran IV, these things are written: ‘There is one universal Church of all the faithful **outside of which no one is saved.’” (link to encyclical)

As Pope B16 has taught we must avoid a discontinuity of the Faith-- meaning to separate Vatican II out of the context of the WHOLE tradition and infallible teachings of the Church.

Agreed. Even when saved under the parameters of Natural Law as described by St Thomas Aquinas - Said individuals are saved as Catholics.

 

[chypmonk]

Agreed. Even when saved under the parameters of Natural Law as described by St Thomas Aquinas - Said individuals are saved as Catholics.

Sorry but you are mistaken. To be a Catholic one needs to be Sacramentally Baptized.

Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis (# 22), June 29, 1943:** “Actually only those are to be numbered among the members of the Church who have received the laver of regeneration and profess the true faith.”papalencyclicals.net/Pius12/P12MYSTI.HTM

In the negative statement in Trent those not Sacramantally Baptized are outside the Church:
Pope Julius III, Council of Trent, On the Sacraments of Baptism and Penance, Sess. 14, Chap. 2, ex cathedra: “… the Church exercises judgment on no one who has not previously entered it by the gate of baptism. For what have I to do with those who are without (1 Cor. 5:12),* says the Apostle.* It is otherwise with those of the household of the faith, whom Christ the Lord by the laver of baptism has once made ‘members of his own body’ (1 Cor. 12:13).”(Denz. 895 http://www.catecheticsonline.com/SourcesofDogma9.php)

Natural Law does not save nor does it make one a member of the Church of the Faithful. This would be Pelagianism. Sacramental Baptism is necessary for salvation.

 

[SouthpawLink]

Sorry but you are mistaken. To be a Catholic one needs to be Sacramentally Baptized.

Natural Law does not save nor does it make one a member of the Church of the Faithful. This would be Pelagianism. Sacramental Baptism is necessary for salvation.

Sacramental Baptism is necessary for salvation by a necessity of means, as well as for formal (actual, in re) membership in the Church. On the other hand, it is theologically certain that people can belong to the Church in desire (in voto) and thus be saved. We are not free to disregard the Church’s ordinary magisterium, which is expressed by the common consent of theologians when they teach a doctrine to be de fide, nor may we disregard theological truths or conclusions made by the consent of theologians (cf. Pope Pius IX, Tuas Libenter: Denz. 1683-1684). And it can be shown, moreover, that the consensus of theologians has been that baptism of desire is a doctrine of the faith:

traditionalmass.org/images/articles/BaptDes-Proofed.pdf

More than the consent of the Church’s theologians, we can also look to the epistle of Pope Innocent III (DS 788), the 1917 Code of Canon Law (Can. 737 §1) as well as to the 1949 Letter of the Holy Office (DS 3871-3872) in order to confirm that baptism of desire is a doctrine of the Church.

 

[chypmonk]

Sacramental Baptism is necessary for salvation by a necessity of means, as well as for formal (actual, in re) membership in the Church. On the other hand, it is theologically certain that people can belong to the Church in desire (in voto) and thus be saved. We are not free to disregard the Church’s ordinary magisterium, which is expressed by the common consent of theologians when they teach a doctrine to be de fide, nor may we disregard theological truths or conclusions made by the consent of theologians (cf. Pope Pius IX, Tuas Libenter: Denz. 1683-1684). And it can be shown, moreover, that the consensus of theologians has been that baptism of desire is a doctrine of the faith:

Sorry this is a false premise, with all due respect to Fr. Cekada, that we are bound by the common consent of theologians:
Pope Pius XII, Humani generis (# 21), Aug. 12, 1950:
“This deposit of faith our Divine Redeemer has given for authentic interpretation not to each of the faithful, not even to theologians, but only to the Teaching Authority of the Church.’”papalencyclicals.net/Pius12/P12HUMAN.HTM

If common consent of theiologians were correct then Arianism would have been held correct since most theologians, laity, clergy and Bishops of the Church accepted Arianism.

He is twisting some comments made by Pius IX to meet his desire.
If Baptism of Desire is a doctrine then what is the official definition?

More than the consent of the Church’s theologians, we can also look to the epistle of Pope Innocent III (DS 788), the 1917 Code of Canon Law (Can. 737 §1) as well as to the 1949 Letter of the Holy Office (DS 3871-3872) in order to confirm that baptism of desire is a doctrine of the Church.url]http://www.traditionalmass.org/images/articles/BaptDes-Proofed.pdf

DS 788 ? Do you mean Denzinger 788?:
**788 I. If anyone does not confess that the first man Adam, when he had transgressed the commandment of God in Paradise, immediately lost his holiness and the justice in which he had been established, and that he incurred through the offense of that prevarication the wrath and indignation of God and hence the death with which God had previously threatened him, and with death captivity under his power, who thenceforth “had the empire of death” [Heb. 2:14], that is of the devil, and that through that offense of prevarication the entire Adam was transformed in body and soul for the worse [see n. 174], let him be anathema. **catecheticsonline.com/SourcesofDogma8.php

or did you mean #790 :
3. If anyone asserts that this sin of Adam, which is one in origin and transmitted to all is in each one as his own by propagation, not by imitation, is taken away either by the forces of human nature, or by any remedy other than the merit of the one mediator, our Lord Jesus Christ [see n. 711], who has reconciled us to God in his own blood, “made unto us justice, sanctification, and redemption” [1 Cor. 1:30]; or if he denies that that merit of Jesus Christ is applied to adults as well as to infants by the sacrament of baptism, rightly administered in the form of the Church: let him be anathema. “For there is no other name under heaven given to men, whereby we must be saved . . .” [Acts 4:12]. Whence that word: “Behold the lamb of God, behold Him who taketh away the sins of the world” [John 1:29]. And that other: “As many of you as have been baptized, have put on Christ” [Gal. 3:27].
catecheticsonline.com/SourcesofDogma8.php

Thus, Fr. Cekada is refuted by the testimony of the very authorities he brings forward. Of the 25 theologians he presents before Vatican II only 7 say BoD is of the faith. Meaning it is not infallibly taught.

If Sacramental Baptism wasn’t necessary for salvation as you believe, then the Church would never have approved 3 Feeneyite communities by 3 different Popes ( Paul VI,JPII, B16)
OSB (men and priests)– Order of St. Benedict (Benedictines of Still River)
MICM (women)- Sisters of St. Benedict Center, Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary (Saint Anne’s House)
MICM (men)– Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary (Immaculate Heart of Mary School)
worcesterdiocese.org/vicar/ReligiousCommunities/tabid/478/Default.aspx

If Canon Law made it a doctrine the well respected Canon Lawyer Peter Vere wouldn’t have approved Feeney’s community situation
catholicism.org/downloads/Peter_Vere_SBC.pdf

 

[manualman]

Perhaps the question simply needs to be looked at in a different light.

Is salvation given to those who have intellectually embraced correct theology or does God give this gift to those who have freely chosen to love Him humbly (i.e. recognizing their own sins, failures and innate unworthiness for salvation)? Or is it that He only grants it to those of the latter category who FIRST achieved success in the first category? Do either of those REALLY sound like the Jesus y’all have come to know in life and in Scripture?

For most of history, there was no real group of people that had made a mental severance between Jesus and the Church, so the clarification was simply not necessary and, indeed, would have been confusing (the answer to a question not asked). Since the protestant revolution is now 500 years old there are massive numbers of people on earth who have been introduced to Christ, but taught lies or distortions about the catholic church. God does not cut them off simply for their intellectual comprehension shortcomings. They ARE part of the Church and saved by the Grace of God which flow through the Church whether they know it or not. Even if they dispute it! God simply doesn’t permit puny humans to confine Him in a box (literal or doctrinal).

 

[thistle]

Hello all, I searched the forum trying to get more information on the subject but failed. I have read all I can and wonder with amazement why 1960 years worth of searching the word by the great men of God, why the church changed the outside the church no salvation apparent theory. I have read things like “if” a man would have agreed with the church “if” he knew it and “if” he would have accepted Christ then he has attained salavation outside the church. Are you kidding me? Did Vatican II change the church just to make it easier to accept. I’m a bit confused and I know there are many here who know much more than a new Catholic. God bless you all.

I don’t see that anything has changed.
Not all Catholics go to Heaven but everyone in Heaven is Catholic.

Who is Catholic?

Those who have been baptised into the Catholic Church.

How?

Through normal means of baptism by running water in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

Those who have received baptism of blood (would be deemed to be a member of the Church).

Those who have received baptism of desire (explicit), e.g. someone going through RCIA has expressed a desire to get to know Christ and his Church (would be deemed to be a member of the Church if death comes before normal baptism).

Those who have received a baptism of desire (implicit), e.g. a person who through no fault of their own (invincible ignorance) does not have any knowledge of Christ, his Gospel, and his Church but actually lives a life in accordance with the teachings of Christ (would be deemed to be a member of the Church).

 

[chypmonk]

…Those who have received baptism of blood (would be deemed to be a member of the Church).

Those who have received baptism of desire (explicit)…

Those who have received a baptism of desire (implicit)…

Sacramental Baptism is necessary because it gives the SACRAMENTAL Character (hence the name: Sacramental Character- given by a sacrament:blush and incorprates us into the Mystical Body this makes one a member of the Church. Without this character one is not a member of the Church.
Pope Pius XII, MEDIATOR DEI–On the Sacred Liturgy, 1947:#43.
"In the same way, actually that baptism is the distinctive mark of all Christians, and serves to differentiate them from those who have not been cleansed in this purifying stream and consequently are not members of Christ."papalencyclicals.net/Pius12/P12MEDIA.HTM

Those who would receive the theoretical “Baptism” of Desire or Blood would still not be members of the Church even if they could received Sanctifying Grace–which they can’t because there is no remission of sins outside the Church----

Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctum (1302): "We are compelled in virtue of our faith to believe and maintain that there is only one holy Catholic Church, and that one is apostolic. This we firmly believe and profess without qualification. Outside this Church there is no salvation and nor remission of sins", papalencyclicals.net/Bon08/B8unam.htm

They that have not received the Mark/Seal of Baptism can not receive any of the other sacraments:
Pope Pius XII "On the Mystical Body of Christ,"June 29, 1943-# 18: "Through the waters of Baptism those who are born into this world dead in sin are not only born again and made members of the Church, but **being stamped with a spiritual seal **they become able and fit to receive the other Sacraments."papalencyclicals.net/Pius12/P12MYSTI.HTM

again Sacramental Baptism is necessary for membership:
Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis , June 29, 1943 # 22: “Actually only those are to be numbered among the members of the Church who have received the laver of regeneration and profess the true faith.”papalencyclicals.net/Pius12/P12MYSTI.HTM

Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis , June 29, 1943,# 27: “He (Christ) also determined that through Baptism (cf. Jn. 3:5) those who should believe would be incorporated in the Body of the Church.”papalencyclicals.net/Pius12/P12MYSTI.HTM

St. Alphonsus, although a proponent of “Baptism” of Desire(BoD) and Blood (BoB), (mistakenly–His mistake is understandable because BoD/BoB wasn’t being abused as it is today to make everyone a “member of the Catholic Church”) he was honest enough to teach the traditional understanding that BoD/BoB do not incorporate one into the Church.

St Alphonsus Liguori: Moral Theology, Bk. 6, nn. 95-7.

“We shall speak below of Baptism of water, which was very probably instituted before the Passion of Christ the Lord, when Christ was baptised by John. But baptism of desire is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true Baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt, **but not as to the impression of the [baptismal] character **or as to the removal of all debt of punishment.

Ludwig Ott agrees with Pius XII and St. Alphonsus as nearly all orthodox theologians say the same, that “The so-called Baptism by blood and Baptism of desire, it is true, replace Sacramental Baptism in so far as the communication of grace is concerned, but do not effect incorporation into the Church , as they do not bestow the sacramental character by which a person becomes attached formally to the Church.” (Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma , p. 311.)

Even Fr. Hardon agrees:
Fr. John Hardon,THE QUESTION AND ANSWER CATECHISM::

“IS BAPTISM OF DESIRE A SACRAMENT?
Baptism of desire is not a sacrament;
i**t does not imprint the baptismal character or enable a person to receive
the other sacraments. ** Nevertheless, it does confer sanctifying grace.”

The Catholic Concise Encyclopedia , by Robert Broderick,definition of baptism
of desire goes as follows:
“In its proper meaning, this consists of an act of perfect contrition
or perfect love [that is Charity, which necessarily implies that one has the True Faith],
and the simultaneous desire for baptism.
**It does not imprint an indelible character on the soul **and
the obligation to receive Baptism by water remains.”
(From page 126 of The Catholic
Concise Encyclopedia , by Robert Broderick, M.A., copyright 1957,
Imprimatur by Francis Cardinal Spellman,
Archbishop of New York, August 31, 1956)

Sacramental Baptism is necessary for salvation because it incorporates one into the Mystical Body of Christ -His Church and makes possible the remission of sins which is impossible outside the Church (cf. see Unam Sanctum above)

 

[valoriuslobo]

Four words: Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus.

“Outside the Church there is no salvation.”

 

[thistle]

Sacramental Baptism is necessary because it gives the SACRAMENTAL Character (hence the name: Sacramental Character- given by a sacrament:blush and incorprates us into the Mystical Body this makes one a member of the Church. Without this character one is not a member of the Church.
Pope Pius XII, MEDIATOR DEI–On the Sacred Liturgy, 1947:#43.
"In the same way, actually that baptism is the distinctive mark of all Christians, and serves to differentiate them from those who have not been cleansed in this purifying stream and consequently are not members of Christ."papalencyclicals.net/Pius12/P12MEDIA.HTM

Those who would receive the theoretical “Baptism” of Desire or Blood would still not be members of the Church even if they could received Sanctifying Grace–which they can’t because there is no remission of sins outside the Church----

Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctum (1302): "We are compelled in virtue of our faith to believe and maintain that there is only one holy Catholic Church, and that one is apostolic. This we firmly believe and profess without qualification. Outside this Church there is no salvation and nor remission of sins", papalencyclicals.net/Bon08/B8unam.htm

They that have not received the Mark/Seal of Baptism can not receive any of the other sacraments:
Pope Pius XII "On the Mystical Body of Christ,"June 29, 1943-# 18: "Through the waters of Baptism those who are born into this world dead in sin are not only born again and made members of the Church, but **being stamped with a spiritual seal **they become able and fit to receive the other Sacraments."papalencyclicals.net/Pius12/P12MYSTI.HTM

again Sacramental Baptism is necessary for membership:
Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis , June 29, 1943 # 22: “Actually only those are to be numbered among the members of the Church who have received the laver of regeneration and profess the true faith.”papalencyclicals.net/Pius12/P12MYSTI.HTM

Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis , June 29, 1943,# 27: “He (Christ) also determined that through Baptism (cf. Jn. 3:5) those who should believe would be incorporated in the Body of the Church.”papalencyclicals.net/Pius12/P12MYSTI.HTM

St. Alphonsus, although a proponent of “Baptism” of Desire(BoD) and Blood (BoB), (mistakenly–His mistake is understandable because BoD/BoB wasn’t being abused as it is today to make everyone a “member of the Catholic Church”) he was honest enough to teach the traditional understanding that BoD/BoB do not incorporate one into the Church.

St Alphonsus Liguori: Moral Theology, Bk. 6, nn. 95-7.

“We shall speak below of Baptism of water, which was very probably instituted before the Passion of Christ the Lord, when Christ was baptised by John. But baptism of desire is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true Baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt, **but not as to the impression of the [baptismal] character **or as to the removal of all debt of punishment.

Ludwig Ott agrees with Pius XII and St. Alphonsus as nearly all orthodox theologians say the same, that “The so-called Baptism by blood and Baptism of desire, it is true, replace Sacramental Baptism in so far as the communication of grace is concerned, but do not effect incorporation into the Church , as they do not bestow the sacramental character by which a person becomes attached formally to the Church.” (Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma , p. 311.)

Even Fr. Hardon agrees:
Fr. John Hardon,THE QUESTION AND ANSWER CATECHISM::

“IS BAPTISM OF DESIRE A SACRAMENT?
Baptism of desire is not a sacrament;
i**t does not imprint the baptismal character or enable a person to receive
the other sacraments. ** Nevertheless, it does confer sanctifying grace.”

The Catholic Concise Encyclopedia , by Robert Broderick,definition of baptism
of desire goes as follows:
“In its proper meaning, this consists of an act of perfect contrition
or perfect love [that is Charity, which necessarily implies that one has the True Faith],
and the simultaneous desire for baptism.
**It does not imprint an indelible character on the soul **and
the obligation to receive Baptism by water remains.”
(From page 126 of The Catholic
Concise Encyclopedia , by Robert Broderick, M.A., copyright 1957,
Imprimatur by Francis Cardinal Spellman,
Archbishop of New York, August 31, 1956)

Sacramental Baptism is necessary for salvation because it incorporates one into the Mystical Body of Christ -His Church and makes possible the remission of sins which is impossible outside the Church (cf. see Unam Sanctum above)

I don’t want to misunderstand you so before I comment further are you saying that only Baptism by running water in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit can save a person (assuming of course they die in a state of grace) and that Baptism of Blood and Baptism of Desire cannot save anyone?

 

[chypmonk]

I don’t want to misunderstand you so before I comment further are you saying that only Baptism by running water in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit can save a person (assuming of course they die in a state of grace) and that Baptism of Blood and Baptism of Desire cannot save anyone?

Yes that is accurate

 

[At_Trent]

The Council of Trent, in its second Canon on the subject of Baptism, declares, with the majestic authority of the Church:

If anyone shall say that true and natural water is not of necessity in Baptism, and therefore shall turn those words of Our Lord, Jesus Christ, “unless one be born again of water and the Holy Spirit” (John 3:5), into some metaphor, let him be anathema.

It’s very simple.

 

[At_Trent]

Four words: Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus.

“Outside the Church there is no salvation.”

You better believe it