Salvation outside the Church

[chypmonk]

Post the entire Papal Bull of Pope Eugene IV. There is a section of it that you are ignoring.

why the mystery? Why don’t you just post it yourself?

 

[ltucker]

Can a person be saved if…
They live a repentant lifestyle
They are baptized in the name of Jesus Christ (like in the bible)
They are filled with the holy spirit and speak in tongues (like in the bible)
They attend a church that resembles the new testament churches in the bible?

 

[SouthpawLink]

Can a person be saved if…
They live a repentant lifestyle
They are baptized in the name of Jesus Christ (like in the bible)
They are filled with the holy spirit and speak in tongues (like in the bible)
They attend a church that resembles the new testament churches in the bible?

Aside from living a repentant lifestyle, do they believe all that which God has revealed as divinely true?

Are they baptized “in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit”, as commanded by Our Lord (Matt. 28:19)?

Do they attend the Church of the New Testament, she who worships God according to the manner in which He desires to be worshiped (cf. Mal. 1:11; Luke 22:19)?

 

[chypmonk]

Your posts are too long to quote so I will try as best I can to answer each major point

teaching. Nevertheless, I think it must be affirmed by all that catechumens who explicitly desire to enter into the Church and yet die before baptism can enter into heaven, as the Church has already infallibly cannonized several such saints in her Roman Martyrology. Examples include St. Emerentiana, St. Genesius of Arles, St. Victor of Braga, and St. Rogatian. The Divine Liturgy is a witness of Sacred Tradition and must be respected. The Church proposes the above non-baptized saints for our veneration.

**Unbaptized saints?
**

Not all of the information about the martyrs is accurate. For instance, According to St. Ambrose, Prudentius and Father Butler, Saint Agnes was beheaded. Others had said St. Agnes was burned to death. The point is that not all of the information given in the martyrdom narrative is necessarily accurate, consistent, or complete.

Pope St. Gelasius, Decretal, 495: **“ Likewise the deeds of the holy martyrs . . . [which] with remarkable caution are not read in the holy Roman Church . . . because the names of those who wrote (them) are entirely unknown . . . lest an occasion of light mockery **arise. .”

So these martyr accounts are may not necessarily be accurate and could bring mockery to the Church if given too much weight.

Catechumens were not always unbaptized either.

Pope St. Sylvester I, First Council of Nicaea, 325 A.D., Can. 2:
“For a catechumen needs time and further probation after baptism…”[ewtn.com/library/councils/nicaea1.htm]

In the early Church, baptized Christians and unbaptized catechumens were instructed to administer the sacrament of Baptism to who ever needed it, whenever persecutions broke out.

the most correct use of Baptism of Blood was a euphemism for martyrdom. (I am aware that a few Church Fathers accepted it as a replacement for the sacrament but that later clarified by Council of Florence and rejected.)

St. John Damascene:
"These things were well understood by our holy and inspired fathers;
and mindful of the Apostle’s word that we must through much tribulation
enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, they strove, after holy baptism, to
keep their garment of immortality spotless and undefiled. Whence some
of them also thought fit to receive yet another baptism; I mean that which is by blood and martyrdom.” gutenberg.org/cache/epub/749/pg749.txt

I would have to write a small book to cover all the above saints in detail but these points should suffice to address the main points:

1. Martyrologies are not always accurate or complete.
   2, Catechumens were not always unbaptized
2. Baptism of blood does not mean they were not previously baptized.

 

[RosaryCrusader]

Please show me the harmony which I seem to be not seeing. Baptism of blood teaches that if one spills their blood for the faith, then that is their baptism into the faith. How is this not in direct contraction to the INFALLIBLE teaching of Pope Eugenius IV … "no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church."

If, in reference to membership in the Church, the position of the heart is considered and not that of the body (as St. Augustine says - I think) the martyr who desires to be in the true Church would be a member in votu when he dies and not outside of it.

 

[chypmonk]

If, in reference to membership in the Church, the position of the heart is considered and not that of the body (as St. Augustine says - I think) the martyr who desires to be in the true Church would be a member in votu when he dies and not outside of it.

This depends on whether the person in question has already be Sacramentally Baptized. If the person in question were Sacramentally Baptized then an act of contrition for all their sins plus martyrdom could mean the person re-entered the Church again if he happened to be separated.

But if you mean that blood/martyrdom could replace sacramental baptism,this is not true. The unbaptized would not be a member, because to be a member one should have the ability to participate in the sacraments. Without the sacramental character this is impossible.
see post #15link

 

[tal]

Hello all, I searched the forum trying to get more information on the subject but failed. I have read all I can and wonder with amazement why 1960 years worth of searching the word by the great men of God, why the church changed the outside the church no salvation apparent theory. I have read things like “if” a man would have agreed with the church “if” he knew it and “if” he would have accepted Christ then he has attained salavation outside the church. Are you kidding me? Did Vatican II change the church just to make it easier to accept. I’m a bit confused and I know there are many here who know much more than a new Catholic. God bless you all.

 

[tal]

Lumen Gentium: vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

1. This Sacred Council wishes to turn its attention firstly to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism(124) and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.

They are fully incorporated in the society of the Church who, possessing the Spirit of Christ accept her entire system and all the means of salvation given to her, and are united with her as part of her visible bodily structure and through her with Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. The bonds which bind men to the Church in a visible way are profession of faith, the sacraments, and ecclesiastical government and communion. He is not saved, however, who, though part of the body of the Church, does not persevere in charity. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but, as it were, only in a “bodily” manner and not “in his heart.”(12*) All the Church’s children should remember that their exalted status is to be attributed not to their own merits but to the special grace of Christ. If they fail moreover to respond to that grace in thought, word and deed, not only shall they not be saved but they will be the more severely judged.(13*)

Catechumens who, moved by the Holy Spirit, seek with explicit intention to be incorporated into the Church are by that very intention joined with her. With love and solicitude Mother Church already embraces them as her own.

1. The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. (14*) For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. (15*) They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God.(16*) They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood. In all of Christ’s disciples the Spirit arouses the desire to be peacefully united, in the manner determined by Christ, as one flock under one shepherd, and He prompts them to pursue this end. (17*) Mother Church never ceases to pray, hope and work that this may come about. She exhorts her children to purification and renewal so that the sign of Christ may shine more brightly over the face of the earth.
2. Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126) But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohammedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20*) She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life. But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator.(129) Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair. Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, “Preach the Gospel to every creature”,(130) the Church fosters the missions with care and attention.

The Church has always taught this.

 

[tal]

tal:
this is heresy, the muslims reject Christ, what an outrage and further more its simple you MUST be baptized with water and the HOLY SPIRIT plain and simple the rest of the garbage you are reading in man made just like the pharisees laws!Pope Eugene IV, The Council of Florence, “Exultate Deo,” Nov. 22, 1439: “Holy baptism, which is the gateway to the spiritual life, holds the first place among all the sacraments; through it we are made members of Christ and of the body of the Church. And since death entered the universe through the first man, ‘unless we are born again of water and the Spirit, we cannot,’ as the Truth says, ‘enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:5]. The matter of this sacrament is real and natural water.”

 

[tal]

This depends on whether the person in question has already be Sacramentally Baptized. If the person in question were Sacramentally Baptized then an act of contrition for all their sins plus martyrdom could mean the person re-entered the Church again if he happened to be separated.

But if you mean that blood/martyrdom could replace sacramental baptism,this is not true. The unbaptized would not be a member, because to be a member one should have the ability to participate in the sacraments. Without the sacramental character this is impossible.
see post #15link

Everyone MUST remember that saints do and have made mistakes, why, because they are fallible and not protected by the HOLY SPIRIT regarding faith and morals Pope Benedict XIV, Apostolica (# 6), June 26, 1749: “The Church’s judgment is preferable to that of a Doctor renowned for his holiness and teaching.”

Pope Pius XII, Humani generis (# 21), Aug. 12, 1950: “This deposit of faith our Divine Redeemer has given for authentic interpretation not to each of the faithful, not even to theologians, but only to the Teaching Authority of the Church.’St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, Pt. II-II, Q. 10, A. 12: “The custom of the Church has very great authority and ought to be jealously observed in all things, since the very doctrine of Catholic doctors derives its authority from the Church. Hence we ought to abide by the authority of the Church rather than by that of an Augustine or a Jerome or of any doctor whatever.”
People need to wake up!!!

 

[TMC]

this is heresy, the muslims reject Christ, what an outrage and further more its simple you MUST be baptized with water and the HOLY SPIRIT plain and simple the rest of the garbage you are reading in man made just like the pharisees laws!Pope Eugene IV, The Council of Florence, “Exultate Deo,” Nov. 22, 1439: “Holy baptism, which is the gateway to the spiritual life, holds the first place among all the sacraments; through it we are made members of Christ and of the body of the Church. And since death entered the universe through the first man, ‘unless we are born again of water and the Spirit, we cannot,’ as the Truth says, ‘enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:5]. The matter of this sacrament is real and natural water.”

What is a “True Traditional Catholic”? I ask because this post is incompatible with the teaching of the Catholic Church. (Teaching you refer to as “garbage”.)

 

[At_Trent]

**Heresy : St. Thomas (II-II:11:1) defines heresy: “a species of infidelity in men who, having professed the faith of Christ, corrupt its dogmas”

Apostasy : Heresy differs from apostasy. The apostate a fide abandons wholly the faith of Christ either by embracing Judaism, Islamism, Paganism, or simply by falling into naturalism and complete neglect of religion; the heretic always retains faith in Christ.

newadvent.org/cathen/07256b.htm

It is precisely the teaching of the Church that one may not be saved outside Her.

How on earth can any Catholic, claim that any member of the civilized world, who rejects the Divinity of Christ, The Holy Trinity, and The Immaculate Conception, can be saved ?

To reject these truths is to reject the Word of God Himself ! And to defend the rejection of these Truths is Heresy

It’s EENS or Heresy people. Which will you carry to your Judgment ?

…

                            Act of Reparation to the Sacred Heart

Most sweet Jesus, whose overflowing charity for men is requited by so much forgetfulness, negligence and contempt, behold us prostrate before Thee, eager to repair by a special act of homage the cruel indifference and injuries to which Thy loving Heart is everywhere subject.

Mindful, alas! that we ourselves have had a share in such great indignities, which we now deplore from the depths of our hearts, we humbly ask Thy pardon and declare our readiness to atone by voluntary expiation, not only for our own personal offenses, but also for the sins of those, who, straying far from the path of salvation, refuse in their obstinate infidelity to follow Thee, their Shepherd and Leader, or, renouncing the promises of their baptism, have cast off the sweet yoke of Thy law.

We are now resolved to expiate each and every deplorable outrage committed against Thee; we are now determined to make amends for the manifold offenses against Christian modesty in unbecoming dress and behavior, for all the foul seductions laid to ensnare the feet of the innocent, for the frequent violations of Sundays and holydays, and the shocking blasphemies uttered against Thee and Thy Saints. We wish also to make amends for the insults to which Thy Vicar on earth and Thy priests are subjected, for the profanation, by conscious neglect or terrible acts of sacrilege, of the very Sacrament of Thy Divine Love; and lastly for the public crimes of nations who resist the rights and teaching authority of the Church which Thou hast founded.

Would that we were able to wash away such abominations with our blood. We now offer, in reparation for these violations of Thy divine honor, the satisfaction Thou once made to Thy Eternal Father on the Cross and which Thou continuest to renew daily on our Altars; we offer it in union with the acts of atonement of Thy Virgin Mother and all the Saints and of the pious faithful on earth; and we sincerely promise to make recompense, as far as we can with the help of Thy grace, for all neglect of Thy great love and for the sins we and others have committed in the past. Henceforth, we will live a life of unswerving faith, of purity of conduct, of perfect observance of the precepts of the Gospel and especially that of charity. We promise to the best of our power to prevent others from offending Thee and to bring as many as possible to follow Thee.

O loving Jesus, through the intercession of the Blessed Virgin Mother, our model in reparation, deign to receive the voluntary offering we make of this act of expiation; and by the crowning gift of perseverance keep us faithful unto death in our duty and the allegiance we owe to Thee, so that we may all one day come to that happy home, where with the Father and the Holy Spirit Thou livest and reignest, God, forever and ever. Amen.

…

St. Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle; be our safeguard against the wickedness and snares of the Devil. May God rebuke him, we humbly pray, and do Thou, O Prince of the Heavenly Host, by the power of God, cast into Hell, Satan and all the other evil spirits, who wander throughout the world, seeking the ruin of souls. Amen.**

Size of font edited by moderator.

 

[At_Trent]

What is a “True Traditional Catholic”? I ask because this post is incompatible with the teaching of the Catholic Church. (Teaching you refer to as “garbage”.)

tal offers the truth TMC, this topic is very confusing. Please don’t shoot the messenger for embracing what the Roman Catholic Church has always taught.

I stated earlier I didn’t believe Fr Feeney was wrong. After further study, and consulting those in a more civil discussion on another forum, I found I was wrong. Fr Feeney was mistaken.

One needs to step back and put aside the bickering, and one can see the truth. BoD requires more than simple faith in Christ. It requires desire to be in communion with His Church, not one of the churches of men who reject Her.

 

[una_fides]

Again, that is not in keeping with infallible Church teaching. I refer you to MIRARI VOS, the Encyclical of Pope Gregory XVI (August 15, 1832), specifically where it says …A schismatic flatters himself falsely if he asserts that he, too, has been washed in the waters of regeneration. Indeed Augustine would reply to such a man: “The branch has the same form when it has been cut off from the vine; but of what profit for it is the form, if it does not live from the root?”… showing that baptism alone does not ensure that one has entered it the “bosom and unity of the Catholic Church”.

The subject of that quote is a schismatic. It is referring to one guilty of the sin of schism. If one is invincibly ignorant, he has not severed himself from the body of the Church. One cannot unknowingly commit a mortal sin. He must do so willfully. The Church has stated that children born into schism are not guilty for the sins of their parents. As the Baltimore Catechism stated, from which you quoted earlier, if they never doubt that their beliefs are true and if they never commit a mortal sin then they would be saved because they have done no sin worthy of condemning them to hell. While it’s true that it would be an extremely rare thing for them to have never committed a mortal sin, it is still nonetheless true as Pope Pius IX declared that God does “not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments.” Here is the context text again:
There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments.
no-salvation-outside-the-church.blogspot.com/
I suggest to continue reading that last line and really ponder its truth.

And if we conclude that the Church had infallibly included those with a desire for baptism, then we would also have to conclude that countless popes and the universal Church has erred previously in this regard in authoritative pronouncements.

Or we could just more easily conclude that you misunderstand what they said. Again think reconciliation. Think harmony not disunity and contradiction.

Please show me the harmony which I seem to be not seeing.

I’m trying!

Baptism of blood teaches that if one spills their blood for the faith, then that is their baptism into the faith. How is this not in direct contraction to the INFALLIBLE teaching of Pope Eugenius IV … "no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church."

No problem. If a person has left the unity of the Church and sheds his blood in the name of Christ, yet still is outside of the Church through his willful sin that places him outside the Church then his act of martyrdom would not count for anything because he has separated himself from the Church. If one is personally guilty of heresy or schism through a deliberate act of his will, then his act of heroic virtue will not suffice to save his soul. That’s how you understand Pope Eugenius’s statement, and it makes perfect sense. Once you are baptized, you remain in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church until through a willful and deliberate act you sever yourself from the body of Christ. In order to be guilty of such a mortal sin, you must commit the sin willfully with full knowledge. If one is invincibly ignorant that the Catholic Church is the true Church, then he is not guilty for not entering the Catholic Church.

While these things are true, we must also remember that God’s grace “impels toward Catholic unity” as Pope Benedict himself stated. If one is truly open to the Spirit of God, I believe that if he humbly begs for light from heaven that there will be no doubt that God will continue to reveal himself to that soul and lead him to his holy Catholic Church. The world, the flesh, and the devil keep people from entering the Church. Pride is a chief obstacle that most often tends to get in the way. Nevertheless, if a baptized protestant or unbaptized person were to cry out to God just before death, imploring his grace and forgiveness with a complete willingness to do whatever God wants and while doing so makes an act of perfect charity and contrition to God, he by such an act be then united with the Catholic Church through his desire. If he was invincibly ignorant of the truth of the Catholic Church, he would nonetheless be entering it through his desire. It is also possible that in such cases, as St. Thomas Aquinas points out, God would send such a person an angel or impose a knowledge within that person to be able to acknowledge the truths of the faith so that his implicit desire could become explicit.

 

[una_fides]

Your post confirms in general my point (thank you because now I don’t have to look it up)ewtn.com/library/CATECHSM/PIUSXCAT.htm#Introduction

1. It was not a universal catechism
2. It was started by Pius X when he was still a cardinal
   3.I may have been mistaken that he wasn’t directly involved in it as Pope, (but I don’t think so) but it is beside the point and moot. I don’t have the time to research the history of it in that much detail because catechisms are never authoritative in themselves.

Interestingly, you did not answer my question as to where you received that information concerning the catechism of Pius X. Did you invent it, misremember it, or did you read it in a Feenyist publication of some sort? Why would you conclude that Pius X was not involved in its publication when all the sources I’ve posted indicate otherwise? The point is not moot or unimportant either since Catechisms themselves, though they are not infallible documents, are still a part of the ordinary teaching authority of the Church.

Catechism of the Council of Trent- Fifteenth printing, TAN Books, Introduction pg.XXXVI:
“Official documents have occasionally been issued by Popes to explain certain points of Catholic teaching to individuals, or to local Christian communities; whereas the Roman Catechism comprises practically the whole body of Christian doctrine, and is addressed to the whole Church. Its teaching is not infallible; but it holds a place between approved catechisms and what is de fide.”

Between approved catechisms and de fide falls under the ordinary Magisterium. The other sources are the opinions of individuals that I would have to read in their full context. The point of a catechism is that it is a summary of what the Church teaches compiled from other sources, so while it is not infallible declaration in and of itself, it does state what the Church already believes. When we see a statement in the catechism, we then should look to other sources from which the catechism gained its information. Doctors of the Church, popes, etc taught baptism of desire.

1. Last point is that you left out the last sentence of your quote from the introduction:
   "The text selected was, with slight modifications, that which had been adopted for some years by the united hierarchy of Piedmont, Liguria, Lombardy, Emilia, and Tuscany."ewtn.com/library/CATECHSM/PIUSXCAT.htm#Introduction

I left it out intentionally so that you would not try to read into this text some kind of support to your conspiracy theory that Pius X’s original was tampered with by some modernist who added in that baptism of desire stuff. If you read it, it says “the text selected…” The question is who did the selecting! If the selector and approver was Pius X, as the sources seem to indicate, then everything else is irrelevant. Furthermore, the modifications were not done to Pius’ text but to documents already in use by the hierarchies of those locations. This fact also points to the correct understanding that this final compiled version of the catechism was promulgated under Pius’ authority and demonstrates the existing belief at that time just like the Baltimore catechism, which also clearly depicts baptism of desire.

 

[StTommyMore]

Hello all, I searched the forum trying to get more information on the subject but failed. I have read all I can and wonder with amazement why 1960 years worth of searching the word by the great men of God, why the church changed the outside the church no salvation apparent theory. I have read things like “if” a man would have agreed with the church “if” he knew it and “if” he would have accepted Christ then he has attained salavation outside the church. Are you kidding me? Did Vatican II change the church just to make it easier to accept. I’m a bit confused and I know there are many here who know much more than a new Catholic. God bless you all.

Vatican 2 changed nothing. The ideas put forth by Vatican 2 are rooted in St. Augustine.

 

[una_fides]

Can a person be saved if…

1. They live a repentant lifestyle
2. They are baptized in the name of Jesus Christ (like in the bible)
3. They are filled with the holy spirit and speak in tongues (like in the bible)
4. They attend a church that resembles the new testament churches in the bible?

1. Do they practice this “repentant lifestyle” through confessing their sins through the means established by Christ as recorded in Scripture?
   John 20:20 And when he had said this, he shewed them his hands and his side. The disciples therefore were glad, when they saw the Lord. 21 He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. 22 When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. 23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them: and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.
   God gave his apostles the authority to forgive sins in his name, and the Church has always practiced this sacrament of confession to the successors to the apostles who have been given this power through apostolic succession. The early Church fathers, the first successors of the apostles, universally undestood this to be true. So either they all conspired together against the teachings of Christ all around the known world (knowing many of them would soon be martyred for their faith) or they were just following the teachings as handed down to them from the apostles.
2. The formula for baptism that has always been used by the Church, as history clearly attests, is the one given by our Savior himself as recorded in the book of Matthew: 28:19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations: baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost. 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you. And behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.
   The “baptism in the name of Jesus” is referenced in the book of Acts as distinguishing it from John’s baptism.
   Notice also that in that verse above Christ promises to be with his Church to guide her and lead her all days until the end of time, and so the Church has continued teaching all the things he commanded both orally and written down (2 Thes 2:14).
3. Being filled with the Spirit and speaking in tongues goes well beyond the scope of our discussion. I suggest starting a new thread on that one. In brief, if you look at history, those sign gifts stopped manifesting themselves in the Church after the Church had grown and become established. They were designed by the Spirit for the Church’s infancy, but now that she speaks the language of all nations she no longer has the need for this gift. This was St. Augustine’s assessment of the situation since they observed that those gifts were no longer in use during his lifetime and well prior. I also suggest reading the account of Eusibious’s history of the Church and specifically his commentary on the Manacheans who spoke in ecstatic utterances that were described as entirely different than the manner in which the apostles themselves spoke.
4. The Church as recorded in the Bible was in her infancy. We would reason that over time she would develop and grow and mature like a plant or tree. The infant Church was also under persecution and was not firmly established and able to erect elaborate Church buildings, etc. Instead the earliest Christians had to have Mass in their homes until the Church was established and given freedom to practice the faith, which did not come until Constantine’s Edict. Moreover, if you read the book of Acts, you will find how the Church dealt with matters of disagreement. They held a Council at Jerusalem to determine whether the Gentiles had to be circumcised and follow the law of Moses to be saved. How did they determine the truth? Did they open their Bibles and have a Bible study or did they all fall on the floor and start rolling around and searched their feelings for the answer? They appealed to their received tradition handed on to them from Christ himself and to their own apostolic authority given to them by the holy Spirit.

So to answer your question, can someone outside the one true Church established by Christ be saved? If that person is outside this Church willfully and knowing it to be true, then absolutely not. If that person is unsure, then they are bound to inquire and study and read on the subject and beg God for light from heaven and to humbly accept his truth regardless of what it asks of them, (i.e. maybe to loose their friends or even career for his sake and for the sake of the truth). Furthermore, without frequent reception of the sacraments, which communicate to us the life of God (his sanctifying grace) salvation becomes and extremely difficult matter entirely.

Hope this explanation helps.

 

[StTommyMore]

What we are seeing here is certain Catholics ignoring the fact that our Tradition is a living tradition. It grows. It develops. It changes, albeit with a continuity.

 

[una_fides]

First as far as I know there is NO proof that Pius XII even knew of this document.

How about the beginning of the document itself, which clearly states, “The Supreme Pontiff, His Holiness, Pope Pius XII, has given full approval to this decision.” So basically are you calling the Holy Office a bunch of liars or did you miss that introduction?

1. On August 8, 1949 a Protocol letter …
2. This letter was signed by …
3. It was formally defective …
4. Consequently, this letter is without any binding effect …

Do you have any sources??? You make such accusations as if you were present and have some kind of inside knowledge as to how it all took place. I’m guessing you read that on a Feenyist site. Otherwise, please provide a source before trying to make claims that seem well beyond your ability to make.

If this document had the power you suppose then the same Holy Office seems to have reversed itself and has approved the Feeney position by approving 3 communities that promote his teaching.

Just because a communicate is permitted to exist does not mean that all of their teachings have been approved by the Church. It doesn’t even definitively safeguard that they may not teach some form of heresy! I’m not implying in any way that those groups taught any heresy, but just that approval doesn’t always safeguard against such things. It is not saying that all their teachings have been examined by the Holy See and have been found to be free from error or heresy as you seem to imply.

 

[una_fides]

What we are seeing here is certain Catholics ignoring the fact that our Tradition is a living tradition. It grows. It develops. It changes, albeit with a continuity.

No change. Just development. There is a big difference that I don’t have time to get into right now. Let’s just say popes have declared it heretical to say that dogmas evolve. They must be understood in the same sense as the Church has always understood them as infallibly declared by Vatican I. Now that sense itself does not mean that we can then understand more over the ages, but it’s still the same essential doctrine understood in the same way. No salvation outside the Church still means the same thing. It seems though that over the centuries of pondering this truth as well as other truths such as that God wills all men to be saved and that he makes available to all men the graces needed for salvation and that there are many who are invincibly ignorant of the truth, then the Church over time understands that those who are not formally members of the Church could still be united to her through perfect charity, perfect contrition, and a desire to do God’s will and therefore desire baptism. Such acts would be exceptionally rare since even many Catholics do not find perfect contrition to come easily when they have been taught to make such acts throughout their life, so someone without such knowledge of this necessity would be in serious trouble, and if knowledge of the necessity comes, then so does the obligation to continue to seek the truth.