Salvation outside the Church

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At_Trent said:
One need not read far into it to see the New Covenant mentioned. One who rejects the NC can not be saved. EENS is clear on that.

Does LG abrogate EENS ?
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Non-Catholics do not necessarily reject the New Covenant.
 
At_Trent said:
chypmonk, our position is simply orthodox. 🤷
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While I will admit your position (which is explicit desire not implicit desire for the sacrament-right?) has some tradition (small"t"). How do you explain Unam Sanctum?

Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam, Nov. 18, 1302, ex cathedra:
“With Faith urging us we are forced to believe and to hold the one, holy, Catholic Church and that, apostolic, and we firmly believe and simply confess this Church outside of which there is no salvation NOR REMISSION OF SIN…”"…Furthermore, we declare, say, define, and proclaim to every human creature that they by necessity for salvation are entirely subject to the Roman Pontiff."

One can not be subject to the Church( i.e. Roman Pontiff) without Sacramental Baptism:

Pope Julius III, Council of Trent, On the Sacraments of Baptism and Penance, Sess. 14, Chap. 2, ex cathedra: * "the Church exercises judgment on no one who has not previously entered it by the gate of baptism.** For what have I to do with those who are without (1 Cor. 5:12), says the Apostle.* It is otherwise with those of the household of the faith, whom Christ the Lord by the laver of baptism has once made ‘members of his own body’ (1 Cor. 12:13).”[Denzinger 895]
 
chypmonk said:
While I will admit your position (which is explicit desire not implicit desire for the sacrament-right?) has some tradition (small"t"). How do you explain Unam Sanctum?

Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam, Nov. 18, 1302, ex cathedra:
“With Faith urging us we are forced to believe and to hold the one, holy, Catholic Church and that, apostolic, and we firmly believe and simply confess this Church outside of which there is no salvation NOR REMISSION OF SIN…”"…Furthermore, we declare, say, define, and proclaim to every human creature that they by necessity for salvation are entirely subject to the Roman Pontiff."

One can not be subject to the Church( i.e. Roman Pontiff) without Sacramental Baptism:

Pope Julius III, Council of Trent, On the Sacraments of Baptism and Penance, Sess. 14, Chap. 2, ex cathedra: * "the Church exercises judgment on no one who has not previously entered it by the gate of baptism.** For what have I to do with those who are without (1 Cor. 5:12), says the Apostle.* It is otherwise with those of the household of the faith, whom Christ the Lord by the laver of baptism has once made ‘members of his own body’ (1 Cor. 12:13).”[Denzinger 895]
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People are deemed to be members of the Church through Baptim of Blood and Baptism of Desire. Whether you like it or not that is what the Church teaches.
 
thistle said:
People are deemed to be members of the Church through Baptim of Blood and Baptism of Desire. Whether you like it or not that is what the Church teaches.
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Where? In what Papal encyclical, or Conciliar text can you find the phrase “baptism of desire”?:confused:
 
AnneElliot said:
Where? In what Papal encyclical, or Conciliar text can you find the phrase “baptism of desire”?:confused:
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CCC 1281 refers to Baptism of Desire, though not using those words explicitly. If there is no exception to water Baptism, can you explain the thief on the Cross?
 
StTommyMore said:
CCC 1281 refers to Baptism of Desire, though not using those words explicitly. If there is no exception to water Baptism, can you explain the thief on the Cross?
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The thief on the Cross, St. Dismas, was saved under the old law. Baptism became obligatory after the resurrection of our Lord.
catechism of the Council of Trent:
Baptism Made Obligatory After Christ’s Resurrection
The second period to be distinguished, that is, the time when the law of Baptism was made, also admits of no doubt. Holy writers are unanimous in saying that after the Resurrection of our Lord, when He gave to His Apostles the command to go and teach all nations: baptising them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, the law of Baptism became obligatory on all who were to be saved.

This is inferred from the authority of the Prince of the Apostles when he says: Who hath regenerated us into a lively hope, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead;’ and also from what Paul says of the Church: He delivered himself up for it: that he might sanctify it, cleansing it by the laver of water in the word of life. By both Apostles the obligation of Baptism seems to be referred to the time which followed the death of our Lord. Hence we can have no doubt that the words of the Saviour: Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God, refer also to the same time which was to follow after His Passion.
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cin.org/users/james/ebooks/master/trent/tsacr-b.htm
 
preV2tradcath said:
The thief on the Cross, St. Dismas, was saved under the old law. Baptism became obligatory after the resurrection of our Lord.

cin.org/users/james/ebooks/master/trent/tsacr-b.htm
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It is still in the Catechism. You can’t just choose to ignore something you don’t like and claim to be a faithful Catholic. And for the record there is no such thing as a “Pre Vatcan 2 Catholic” and a “Post Vatican 2 Catholic.” There is no “Preconiliar Church or Postconcilar Church.” You are simply Catholic, and there is simply the Church. To use labels such as these serves no purpose other than to divide the Body of Christ.
 
AnneElliot said:
Where? In what Papal encyclical, or Conciliar text can you find the phrase “baptism of desire”?:confused:
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THE COUNCIL OF TRENT
Session VI - Celebrated on the thirteenth day of January, 1547 under Pope Paul III

CHAPTER IV A BRIEF DESCRIPTION OF THE JUSTIFICATION OF THE SINNER AND ITS MODE IN THE STATE OF GRACE
In which words is given a brief description of the justification of the sinner, as being a translation from that state in which man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace and of the adoption of the sons of God through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Savior.
This translation however cannot, since promulgation of the Gospel, be effected except through the laver of regeneration or its desire, as it is written:
Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.[18]
 
Everyone keeps looking for loopholes where there are none. Why was Fr Feeney excommunicated if he was right ?
 
On your blog you say
" I have concerns about how Vatican II was implemented…"

What enabled the mis-implementation ? Ambiguous documents ? How else could there be mis-implementation ?
 
At_Trent said:
On your blog you say
" I have concerns about how Vatican II was implemented…"

What enabled the mis-implementation ? Ambiguous documents ? How else could there be mis-implementation ?
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Misimplimentations resulted from people not reading the documents and saying that the COuncil called for things which it did not…
 
chypmonk,
You asked At Trent and I to account for Unam Sanctum. Allow me to submit my post from page twelve:

How can two saintly popes (the only two canonized popes in the last 697 years: St. Celestine V was canonized by Clement V in 1313) so blatantly misunderstand or contradict the well-known dogma, Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus?

“With Faith urging us we are forced to believe and to hold the one, holy, Catholic Church and that, apostolic, and we firmly believe and simply confess this (Church) outside which there is no salvation nor remission of sin” (Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam, A.D. 1302: Dz. 468).
  • There is no remission of sins outside the Church.
“It is certainly clear that the minister of baptism need not be a judge, since the Church exercises judgment on no one who has not first entered it through the gateway of baptism” (Council of Trent, Sess. XIV, chap. 2: Dz. 895).
  • Catechumens, who are unbaptized, are not under the jurisdiction of the Church; they are not actual members. This is confirmed by the teaching of Pope Pius XII:
“Actually only those are to be numbered among the members of the Church who have received the laver of regeneration and profess the true faith, and have not, to their misfortune, separated themselves from the structure of the Body, or for very serious sins have not been excluded by lawful authority” (Mystici Corporis Christi, n. 22: Dz. 2286).
  • So, in order to be inside the Church and receive the remission of sin, you must be an actual, baptized member, right? If this is true, then both Ss. Pius V and Pius X seriously contradicted the often-defined/reaffirmed dogma of the Church.
Pope St. Pius V condemned the following propositions:

"31. Perfect and sincere charity, which is from a ‘pure heart and good conscience and a faith not feigned’ [1 Tim. 1:5], can be in catechumens as well as in penitents without the remission of sins.

"32. That charity which is the fullness of the law is not always connected with the remission of sins.

"33. A catechumen lives justly and rightly and holily, and observes the commandments of God, and fulfills the law through charity, which is only received in the laver of baptism, before the remission of sins has been obtained.

"43. In persons who are penitent before the sacrament of absolution, and in catechumens before baptism, there is true justification, yet separated from the remission of sin.

“71. Through contrition even when joined with perfect charity and with the desire to receive the sacrament, a crime is not remitted without the actual reception of the sacrament, except in case of necessity, or of martyrdom” (Ex omnibus afflictionibus, A.D. 1567: Dz. 1031-33, 1043, 1071).
  • Here we learn that catechumens can have perfect charity, which necessarily includes the remission of sins, and that this can happen before baptism, even when not in a case of necessity or martyrdom.
Pope St. Pius X was largely responsible for the 1917 Code of Canon Law, of which canon 1239 §2 reads:

“Catechumeni qui nulla sua culpa sine baptismo moriantur, baptizatis accensendi sunt.”

My English translation reads: “Catechumens who through no fault of their own die without baptism are to be reckoned as baptized.”

So, both Ss. Pius V and Pius X taught rather authoritatively that unbaptized catechumens, who were not actual members of the Church by their lack of baptism (MCC, n. 22), could obtain the remission of sins and be saved. Were these two saintly popes in fact heretics? On the other hand, maybe we should take a closer look at the Church’s faith at the time she defined - and later reaffirmed - Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus. Finally, I would take the unified teaching of Ss. Ambrose, Augustine, Bernard, Thomas, Robert B. and Alphonsus L. over anyone any day of the week (not including ex cathedra pronouncements).
 
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