Salvation outside the Church

[Pitcharan]

Do not play with the refusal.

The flooding waters were roaring and treated to wash out the tree, on which the man was sitting.

He was a good man, and god promised him, to save his life.

A boat was coming, offering to take him. He refused: God will save me. A helicopter was coming and offered to take hum. He again refused, God will save me.

The tree was fallen and the man died. When he met God, he asked: Lord, why did you not save me?

I sent you the doat and helicopter, you refused.

Same is with the salvation. The Church is the device for rescue. If someone refuses this help, it is his fault.

The Church is the mystical body of Jesus Christ, and the ones who understand this and intentionally for cowardice, pride or any reason refuse to accept the real presence of Jesus Christ through his Church, reject God himself.

The freedom is the highest immanent value, and God honors the freedom.

I simply reject your warnings and they are meaningless to me.

 

[Pitcharan]

The apostles represent the Church…to willingly, knowingly reject the Catholic Church is to reject God

Many hindus, muslims and buddhists will enter God’s kingdom while many name sake christians including fundamentalists will be left behind

 

[StTommyMore]

Many hindus, muslims and buddhists will enter God’s kingdom

Not if they reject the Church they won’t. The Church is the normative avenue of salvation. If you purposefully reject the Church you are rejecting Christ

 

[ronin67]

No one is saved by a false religion. All protestant religions are false religions. Everyone who is saved is saved because of the merits of the Catholic religion. In that sense , nothing has changed. There may be many Protestants who embrace the tenets of Catholicism and reject none of them. Will they be saved? Its hard to say. Only GOD knows.

Really, you can second guess the grace of God? All Protestant religions are false??? I thought we were saved by the grace of God thru the sacrifice of his son Jesus Christ? Wow, this statement goes against the Catholic Church, who admitted that their maybe grace outside the Catholic Church. If the Vatican is willing to say this, who are you as a follower of the one true church to question an official statement by the one true church. Please, I’m having quite a few struggles with some Catholics in the very church I’m going to. Is it just me or are Catholics allergic to reading the Holy Bible? You have some on this forum who are very dedicated readers of the Holy Bible, but the Catholics I met in person, have now biblical knowledge or even want to read. “The daily readings in mass are enough for me”. Are you serious? I asked a Catholic who partakes of the eucharist daily, if she accepted Jesus Christ as her Lord and Savior, and she stated she didn’t understand that statement. Many Catholics think Christianity is a works based religion. Also, evangelizing as a Catholic is so unheard of. What, once your Catholic you stop spreading the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ? Catholics plain suck at evangelizing. I’m doing my best in my church, with my priest to change this. My priest is a great guy who agrees that we as Catholics need to get back to evangelizing. After all, the Catholic church was responsible for initially spreading the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ all the over the world. What has happened to us???

May God help us to do a better job.

Ed

 

[Pitcharan]

“he who rejects you rejects me, and He who sent me”

***"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
*** (Matt 7:21)

 

[Pitcharan]

Really, you can second guess the grace of God? All Protestant religions are false??? I thought we were saved by the grace of God thru the sacrifice of his son Jesus Christ? Wow, this statement goes against the Catholic Church, who admitted that their maybe grace outside the Catholic Church. If the Vatican is willing to say this, who are you as a follower of the one true church to question an official statement by the one true church. Please, I’m having quite a few struggles with some Catholics in the very church I’m going to. Is it just me or are Catholics allergic to reading the Holy Bible? You have some on this forum who are very dedicated readers of the Holy Bible, but the Catholics I met in person, have now biblical knowledge or even want to read. “The daily readings in mass are enough for me”. Are you serious? I asked a Catholic who partakes of the eucharist daily, if she accepted Jesus Christ as her Lord and Savior, and she stated she didn’t understand that statement. Many Catholics think Christianity is a works based religion. Also, evangelizing as a Catholic is so unheard of. What, once your Catholic you stop spreading the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ? Catholics plain suck at evangelizing. I’m doing my best in my church, with my priest to change this. My priest is a great guy who agrees that we as Catholics need to get back to evangelizing. After all, the Catholic church was responsible for initially spreading the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ all the over the world. What has happened to us???

May God help us to do a better job.

Ed

You are on the right track Ed. God will bring your efforts to great success. A suggestion: while evangelizing non-christians also work for christian unity and chide / discourage fellow-catholics who make sweeping harsh remarks against protestants and other denominations. Our goal is common and differences are bound to be there till the complete knowledge is revealed to all

 

[StTommyMore]

***"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
*** (Matt 7:21)

I never said all Catholics would be saved. Your prroftext helps my point. There are many many denominations that call themselves “Christian”…how many have an actual link to Christ?

 

[Pitcharan]

…There are many many denominations that call themselves “Christian”…how many have an actual link to Christ?

The number of catholics with no link whatsoever to Christ may outnumber the many many denominations. Let us put our own house in order first

 

[StTommyMore]

The number of catholics with no link whatsoever to Christ may outnumber the many many denominations. Let us put our own house in order first

I was referring to denominations, not individuals. The Catholic CHurch is the ONLY one with a direct link to Chrst

 

[ronin67]

The number of catholics with no link whatsoever to Christ may outnumber the many many denominations. Let us put our own house in order first

Well said. I really take no joy in saying Catholics are very weak to most of there Protestant counterparts when it comes to biblical knowledge, but this is what I’ve seen. You can’t take away from my experiences. However, I am grateful to my parish priest who shares this view, because he also has witnessed it. I think overall when we say that we know who will be saved and who won’t, we are putting ourselves in a dangerous place. We have no right to second guess the grace of God. However, going by our Holy inspired instruction manual (The Holy Bible), we can get a real good picture of our loving Father’s intent.

May God Bless!

Ed

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

I really take no joy in saying Catholics are very weak to most of there Protestant counterparts when it comes to biblical knowledge, but this is what I’ve seen.
May God Bless!

Ed

I really think that it is unfair to say that catholic are weak in bibilcal knowledge. I believe it comes down to how the question are asked. If you ask the the moajority of catholic a question wanting book chapter and verse then yes, you will more than likely not get a correct answer. Or if asked were in the Bible something is said againmore than likely not get a correct answer, as catholics have not been taught the Bible in that fashion traditionally. compare this to most protestant are taught in a chapter verse manner and even then it is selcted books chapters and verse.

You have to look at it this way as well the vast magority of the Mass come directly from the Bible and if you go to Mass every sunday for the 3 year cycle you about 44% of the bible plus the Pslams. if you attend daily Mass as well the goes up to 85% plus the Pslams, and remember the cannon of the Catholic bible includes more than protestant. So it is more of a way it is learned tha if it is learned.

I think that the reason most catholic think they dont know the Bibile is that we get it During the mass and not with the Bible in hand, We do not get it in Chapter verse format, there for when tlking about it with protestants make us feel as if we do not have the as much knowledg about it.

Even things that are said not to be in the Bible can be found there if you take to whole teaching of the Church.

I have seen this

B - basic
I -  instrutions
B - before
L - leaving
E - earth

There is more to being a child of God and disiple of Christ then following a book. I read nowhere were Christ said go read the book. Paul writes do what I have taught you, not what we wrote in a book.

The Bible is a gift that contains Gods words to us, But Jesus is the Word of God. We need to Look more at living the life that Chirst calls us to and bringing the Mass and scaraments to life in our lifes more that knowling what is writtern in a certain passage. Live the Mass not just show up.

 

[TMC]

I believe that on this question there are two kinds of people.

1. 
   *]Those who believe that they know more than the pope.
   
   *]Those wo truly do not understand what the current popes are saying.
   
   They may react similarly, but for very different reasons. We have to be crystal clear with the first group that we will not follow down that slippery slope and be very patient with the second group, because they are not trying to be arrogant. More often they are frustrated. I know that when I’m trying to understand something important and it just does not make sense, I can get very frustrated and say some pretty dumb things. Anyone here ever done that or am I the only one?
   
   Fraternally,
   
   Br. JR, OSF

1. 
   I agree with you in spirit, and I have made much more than my fair share of dumb statements. At the same time, I have become convinced that the vast majority of what we see here falls into your category # 1. Maybe I am just more cynical than you, but I grow tired of seeing posters that are clearly familiar with the Church’s documents and teaching baldly misrepresenting same.

 

[ltucker]

The baptisms mentioned in the Acts may not spell out exactly every minute detail. Our Lord’s instruction is clearly there in the gospel. It is meaningless to debate this

I’m not debating. I looking for the truth.

 

[StTommyMore]

Did the Apostles follow the same instructions? It seems they baptized everyone in “Jesus’ name”. I can’t find anywhere in the bible where some one was baptized using three titles. It was always in Jesus name.

They followed His instructions. If you read some histories about Early CHristian worship you will see this to be true. I have a question for you: Do you celebrate the Eucharist daily?

 

[chypmonk]

THis has no earing on the discussion. There are thousands of communities that are not Ffeneyites.

Of course it does… You obviously didn’t read the link I attached, nor do you understand that 4 different groups could NOT get approval 4 different times during the reign of 3 different Popes, if they were heretical. If you can’t understand this I have no idea how to help you

Secretary of the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei, says they are in FULL communion
ewtn.com/library/curia/cedsspx2.htm
"e. The question of the doctrine held by the late Father Leonard Feeney is a complex one. He died in full communion with the Church and many of his former disciples are also now in full communion while some are not. We do not judge it opportune to enter into this question."

There was direct consultation with the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith ( then headed by then Cardinal Ratzinger, now Pope B16) by Fr. Lawrence A. Deery, JCL, at the time the Diocese of Worcester’s
Judicial Vicar and Vicar for Canonical Affairs and acting in his official capacity, wrote the following:

" In our discussions with the Congregation [for the Doctrine of the Faith] it seemed rather clear that proponents of a strict interpretation of the doctrine should be given the same latitude for teaching and discussion as those who would hold more liberal views. Summarily, Mother Theresa and her community in no
manner abandoned Father Feeney’s teachings.”
[ this is contained in the second letter which you need to scroll down to in this link-- click here]

](http://www.scribd.com/doc/24283795/...ding-communities-founded-by-Fr-Leonard-Feeney)
Here is a link to my original post on this subject #322 link

I have provided infallible sources, ordinary magisterial sources, and official church approval of groups holding a strict understanding of EENS but it still isn’t enough?
What will it take to convince people, that this is an open discussion topic? Neither I, who hold a strict ( and correct:tiphat understanding, can call others who hold a liberal understanding heretical, nor should they they call my views heretical in this discussion.

 

[StTommyMore]

Of course it does… You obviously didn’t read the link I attached, nor do you understand that 4 different groups could NOT get approval 4 different times during the reign of 3 different Popes, if they were heretical. If you can’t under stand this I have no idea how to help you

Secretary of the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei, says they are in FULL communion
ewtn.com/library/curia/cedsspx2.htm
"e. The question of the doctrine held by the late Father Leonard Feeney is a complex one. He died in full communion with the Church and many of his former disciples are also now in full communion while some are not. We do not judge it opportune to enter into this question."

There was direct consultation with the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith ( then headed by then Cardinal Ratzinger, now Pope B16) by Fr. Lawrence A. Deery, JCL, at the time the Diocese of Worcester’s
Judicial Vicar and Vicar for Canonical Affairs and acting in his official capacity, wrote the following:

" In our discussions with the Congregation [for the Doctrine of the Faith] it seemed rather clear that proponents of a strict interpretation of the doctrine should be given the same latitude for teaching and discussion as those who would hold more liberal views. Summarily, Mother Theresa and her community in no
manner abandoned Father Feeney’s teachings.”
[ this is contained in the second letter which you need to scroll down to in this link-- click here]

](http://www.scribd.com/doc/24283795/...ding-communities-founded-by-Fr-Leonard-Feeney)
Here is a link to my original post on this subject #322 link

I have provided infallible sources, ordinary magisterial sources, and official church approval of groups holding a strict understanding of EENS but it still isn’t enough?
What will it take to convince people, that this is an open discussion topic? Neither I, who hold a strict ( and correct:tiphat understanding, can call others who hold a liberal understanding heretical, nor should they they call my views heretical in this discussion.

A strict understanding of EENS is actually contrary to the Scriptures.

 

[JReducation]

I agree with you in spirit, and I have made much more than my fair share of dumb statements. At the same time, I have become convinced that the vast majority of what we see here falls into your category # 1. Maybe I am just more cynical than you, but I grow tired of seeing posters that are clearly familiar with the Church’s documents and teaching baldly misrepresenting same.

Over confidence is risky business. The one thing that we have to keep in mind is that the Church does not have the power to say who is in hell. She only has the power to say who is in heaven.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[chypmonk]

Over confidence is risky business. The one thing that we have to keep in mind is that the Church does not have the power to say who is in hell. She only has the power to say who is in heaven.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:
“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.” [Denzinger 714.]

Council of Lyons II“…The souls of those who die in mortal sin or with original sin only, however, immediately descend to hell, to be punished with different punishments…-- (Denzinger 464)

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, ex cathedra:: “…Moreover, the souls of those who depart in actual mortal sin or in original sin only, descend immediately into hell but to undergo punishments of different kinds.” (Denzinger 693)

 

[chypmonk]

A strict understanding of EENS is actually contrary to the Scriptures.

no it’s not

 

[StTommyMore]

no it’s not

“God is not willing that any should parish, but that all would come to the truth.” Does it not stand to reason then that God would provide a way for salvation for those who had never heard the truth?