Salvation outside the Church

[thistle]

Well there seems to be quite a bit of focus on those outside the Church so I guess I’ll ask the following. Are all those inside the Church saved? I would think not…besides you mean to tell me you know who is fully in the Church and who isn’t? This ultimately is handled by God as the sole judge, not even the Church or much less, a half wit layman.

All those in Heaven are Catholic (through sacramental baptism or baptism of blood or desire) but not all Catholics are saved. Those who die in a state of unrepented mortal sin condemn themselves to Hell.

 

[Pitcharan]

You seem to misunderstand the concept of infallible truths. An infallible truth can not change, otherwise it was never an infallible truth to begin with. For that reason, infallible teachings can not contradict previously declared infallible teaching.

And as far as fasting, eating circumcised animals, etc.; you are mixing practices and disciplines with doctrines and dogmas. The former are rules and guidelines established by the Church to help the faithful walk the straight and narrow road. They can change over time or even be completely discarded. The latter are sacred truths which can never be changed, contradicted or discarded.

Some of the examples I cited may be mere practices. If you consider “circumcision” a mere practice then what about the Sacrament of Baptism? Salvation history shows that truths too are revealed partially to begin with and gradually we are led to perfect truth. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. (1Cor 13:9-10)

 

[JM3]

Dear JM3,

Cordial greetings.

However, this text argues strongly in favour of the un-evangelised not being saved outside the bosom of the Church, owing to the fact that because each man is endowed with the light of conscience he is therefore without excuse and cannot plead that he is ‘invincibly ignorant’. True, he may not have the luxury of Divine revelation in all its fullness, but he does, nonetheless, have the requirements of God’s natural law written upon his heart; as one theologian has aptly said, there is a “point of contact”. Thus, the pagan who has never even heard of God’s law (or perhaps even if there is a God) is still able to distinguish right from wrong and his conscience is that innate faculty that passes its independent judgement upon his conduct. Indeed, it is an evidence of his indestructable moral nature, and is an evidence that God bears witness to Himself in his heart.

If then the imperfect witness of man’s conscience convicts him of sinful behaviour, how much more will the Divine Author of conscience condemn it? Perhaps, the pre-Vatican II Popes and theologians perceived this truth more than the progressive thinkers such as Karl Rahner and his ilk, who were essentially universalists at heart like their Protestant liberal counterparts.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax

“They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them” Romans 2:15 RSV-2CE

Perhaps you read it differently, but it seems to me that St. Paul leaves the door open for the possibility, as does Vatican II.

 

[rben20]

All those in Heaven are Catholic (through sacramental baptism or baptism of blood or desire) but not all Catholics are saved. Those who die in a state of unrepented mortal sin condemn themselves to Hell.

Completely agree that we will all be Catholic in Heaven and surely that God desires for everyone to be Catholic and in full communion with the Church…but as far as dying in mortal sin that is blurry. Lets say a suicide happens…granted it is a mortal sin to take one’s own life but there is more to this than just the act (mental and emotional stress). Nobody knows the love someone has for God or the trials they have been through for God. This is someone’s heart that no one can judge except God…

I ultimately bring this back to the subject of salvation. There are many more factors than just what Church you belong to as that could only be half the story. Let God alone judge…logically this goes hand in hand with the Pope’s recent commentary on no salvation outside the Church. Brother JR said it perfectly. We are called to be a part of the Church and in Heaven we will all be Catholic but those who find themselves outside are not to be written off just as I wouldn’t give a free pass to anyone in the Church.

 

[JReducation]

No one denies the fulness of truth contained in the CC or its link to Jesus Christ. But it is unfair to say that CC alone and no other even if it is true. Who can stop our Lord from revealing His truth to others?

"Do not stop him," Jesus said. "No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, for whoever is not against us is for us. (Mk 9:39-40)

No one has said that other faiths have no truths. In fact, what the last five popes have said is exactly this. They have said that while the Catholic Church is the only Church that contains the fulness of truth, Christ does reveal himself to non-Catholics and even to non-Christians and he uses whatever truths he reveals to save. They have also said that the Church does not have the power or authority to deny that Christ can and does reveal himself to those outside the Church. The difference is in degree of revelation. There are certain truths that are only available within the physical Catholic Church [ie. Sacraments] and there are other truths that do not require the physical Church [ie. prayer, morals]. We’re not going to say that Muslims are wrong when they oppose abortion, just because they are Muslims. That would be foolish at best. How do the Muslims come to the knolwedge that abortion is murder? Through the Catholic Church. That truth which has been revealed to the Catholic Church first, has found its way to them. But it came through the Church. Therefore, we continue to see salvation within the Church, extending its arm to those who are outside. Those Muslims who protect the unborn from the horrors of abortion are certainly acknowledged by God. Such an action does not go unnoticed and unrewarded by God. That’s what the Church is trying to help us see.

The way that they explain this and remain faithful to the teaching of no salvation outside the Chuch, is by explaining what the Church is about and how she can extend her saving authority to those who are not physical members of the Church. What we need to remember is that we do not have the authority to tell the Church that she cannot extend her coverage to those who are physically outside. The Church has the power to bind and unbind. Popes cannot change doctrine, but they can reflect on it and in doing so, they can see points that their predecessors did not see or that were not issues in the past.

The problem here is that we have some people who want to challenge the popes. They’re not challenging me. I’m just repeating what the last five popes have said. If someone has an issue with anything that I post, they should take it up with the Sacred Congregation for the Faith.

We have to be realistic here. If someone is saying what the Sacred Congregation has authorized, then the problem is not with the poster, it’s with the Sacred Congregation. Why kill the messenger?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Pitcharan]

No one has said that other faiths have no truths. In fact, what the last five popes have said is exactly this. They have said that while the Catholic Church is the only Church that contains the fulness of truth, Christ does reveal himself to non-Catholics and even to non-Christians and he uses whatever truths he reveals to save. They have also said that the Church does not have the power or authority to deny that Christ can and does reveal himself to those outside the Church. …

The problem here is that we have some people who want to challenge the popes. They’re not challenging me. I’m just repeating what the last five popes have said. If someone has an issue with anything that I post, they should take it up with the Sacred Congregation for the Faith.

We have to be realistic here. If someone is saying what the Sacred Congregation has authorized, then the problem is not with the poster, it’s with the Sacred Congregation. Why kill the messenger?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Dear JR, my post did not refer to any Pope or you or your post. If you follow the linkages you’ll realize that I was only refuting TommyMore. His post is requoted below:

I was referring to denominations, not individuals. The Catholic CHurch is the ONLY one with a direct link to Chrst

 

[StTommyMore]

No one denies the fulness of truth contained in the CC or its link to Jesus Christ. But it is unfair to say that CC alone and no other even if it is true. Who can stop our Lord from revealing His truth to others?

"Do not stop him," Jesus said. "No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, for whoever is not against us is for us. (Mk 9:39-40)

I never said other faiths are devoid of Truth. The fullness of truth subsists in the Catholic Church alone.

 

[Pitcharan]

I never said other faiths are devoid of Truth. The fullness of truth subsists in the Catholic Church alone.

I think all the debates and arguments ultimately establish that there is a broad consensus and we all more or less agree that:

• the CC founded by our Lord is led by the HS and a fountain of truth in all fullness
• Our Lord has no limitations and can reveal Truth to any individual, denomination or religion and the CC acknowledges and respects the truth in all religions and denominations.
• The CC cautions its own flock against looking for means of salvation other than what CC proclaims

 

[JReducation]

I think all the debates and arguments ultimately establish that there is a broad consensus and we all more or less agree that:

• the CC led by the HS is a fountain of truth in all fullness
• The CC acknowledges and respects the truth in all religions and denominations.
• The CC cautions its own flock against looking for means of salvation other than what CC proclaims

Well said.

I will just add . . . if anyone believes that the Catholic Church is suddenly teaching heresy on this question, then we should all pack our bags and go home, because the Catholic Church is no longer. We know that this is not the case.

But we cannot attack other posters for stating what the Church is saying. If we disagree, then let’s be honest and say it, “The Church is wrong and I’m right.” But don’t attack the poster who repeats what the Church says. That’s not fair.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Pitcharan]

Well said.

I will just add . . . if anyone believes that the Catholic Church is suddenly teaching heresy on this question, then we should all pack our bags and go home, because the Catholic Church is no longer. We know that this is not the case.

But we cannot attack other posters for stating what the Church is saying. If we disagree, then let’s be honest and say it, “The Church is wrong and I’m right.” But don’t attack the poster who repeats what the Church says. That’s not fair.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

If I sounded like attacking, I’m sorry. But posters who quote the Church must provide proof and ONLY quote verbatim, without adding, subtracting or modifying

 

[JReducation]

If I sounded like attacking, I’m sorry. But posters who quote the Church must provide proof and ONLY quote verbatim, without adding, subtracting or modifying

On this question, I would point readers to: Lumen Gentium, Gaudium Et Spes, Ut Unum Sint and the CCC.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Portrait]

“They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them” Romans 2:15 RSV-2CE

Perhaps you read it differently, but it seems to me that St. Paul leaves the door open for the possibility, as does Vatican II.

Dear JM3,

Cordial greetings and thankyou for your response above.

That the option for salvation remains available cannot be sustained in the light of the context of St. Paul’s whole argument.

The fact is that pagans will be judged, but they will be judged in accordance with the illumination which they have enjoyed. Thus if they have been bereft of the benefit of Divine revelation they will be judged by the light of conscience and natural law morality; their disobedience to which is sufficient to secure their eternal condemnation. - “All who have sinnned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law” (Rom. 2: 12). St. Paul is quite unequivocal here, "All who have sinned without the law (Divine revelation) will also perish without the law (eternal condemnation). True, the pagan is not so blameworthy as the Christian, nevertheless, he shall perish - “And that servant who knew his master’s will, but did not make ready or act according to his will, shall receive a severe beating. but he who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, shall receive a light beating. Every one to whom much is given, of him will much be required; and him to whom men commit much they will demand more” (St. Luke 12: 47,48).

Interestingly, in the previous chapter, Romans 1, St. Paul distinctly affirms that men may know God’s power and majesty from the created order which they cannot but fail to behold daily. Now this knowledge of God’s creative power renders men responsible, so that “they are without excuse” (Rom. 1: 20). It is because the unseen things of God are, so to speak, clearly seen, that men cannot plead ignorance for not glorifying him as God. In fact Romans 1 specifically states that men did in point of fact know God (v. 21), but, on account of sin, did not wish to retain this knowldge and prefered to banish this truth from their minds. The result was that their hearts were darkened and they degenerated further into all manner of sin and vice, as the rest of that chapter makes abundantly clear.

The fact that the law of God is ineradicably imprinted upon man’s consciousness surely means that he can never sin with a clear conscience, for he is endowed with the innate faculty to distinguish right from wrong.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax

 

[tal]

With all due respect Brother, the expression of dogmatic statements can’t change, they are written in stone:

Pope Pius IX, First Vatican Council, Sess. 3, Chap. 2 on Revelation, 1870, ex cathedra:

“ 14. Hence, too, that meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church, and there must never be any abandonment of this sense under the pretext or in the name of a more profound understanding.

May understanding, knowledge and wisdom increase as ages and centuries roll along, and greatly and vigorously flourish, in each and all, in the individual and the whole church: but this only in its own proper kind, that is to say, in the same doctrine, the same sense, and the same understanding”

papalencyclicals.net/Councils/ecum20.htm

Pope Gregory XVI, Mirari Vos (#7), Aug. 15, 1832:

“… nothing of the things appointed ought to be diminished; nothing changed; nothing added; but they must be preserved both as regards expression and meaning.”
papalencyclicals.net/Greg16/g16mirar.htm

the phase “No salvation outside the Church” is a summery of the Three DOGMATIC statements. THOSE particular statements are INFALLIBLE and are to be retained in their form and expression.

I have no problem with B16 nor JPII, if you read my posts you would know this and not throw out rash accusations, since they approved of 3 “Feeneyite” communities.

peace

You can’t change something that was declared true from the chair of St. Peter and then say its no longer true and say this is the new truth, thats why the new mass is invalid because it is a new religion, a false church predicted in many places, one being our lady of la salette, in the book of Daniel etc. Bother jr is a evil heretic and so are these anti-popes

 

[StTommyMore]

Dear JM3,

Cordial greetings and thankyou for your response above.

That the option for salvation remains available cannot be sustained in the light of the context of St. Paul’s whole argument.

The fact is that pagans will be judged, but they will be judged in accordance with the illumination which they have enjoyed. Thus if they have been bereft of the benefit of Divine revelation they will be judged by the light of conscience and natural law morality; their disobedience to which is sufficient to secure their eternal condemnation. - “All who have sinnned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law” (Rom. 2: 12). St. Paul is quite unequivocal here, "All who have sinned without the law (Divine revelation) will also perish without the law (eternal condemnation). True, the pagan is not so blameworthy as the Christian, nevertheless, he shall perish - “And that servant who knew his master’s will, but did not make ready or act according to his will, shall receive a severe beating. but he who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, shall receive a light beating. Every one to whom much is given, of him will much be required; and him to whom men commit much they will demand more” (St. Luke 12: 47,48).

Interestingly, in the previous chapter, Romans 1, St. Paul distinctly affirms that men may know God’s power and majesty from the created order which they cannot but fail to behold daily. Now this knowledge of God’s creative power renders men responsible, so that “they are without excuse” (Rom. 1: 20). It is because the unseen things of God are, so to speak, clearly seen, that men cannot plead ignorance for not glorifying him as God. In fact Romans 1 specifically states that men did in point of fact know God (v. 21), but, on account of sin, did not wish to retain this knowldge and prefered to banish this truth from their minds. The result was that their hearts were darkened and they degenerated further into all manner of sin and vice, as the rest of that chapter makes abundantly clear.

The fact that the law of God is ineradicably imprinted upon man’s consciousness surely means that he can never sin with a clear conscience, for he is endowed with the innate faculty to distinguish right from wrong.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax

And what about those who don’t have the law, but still do what the law requires?

 

[tal]

If I sounded like attacking, I’m sorry. But posters who quote the Church must provide proof and ONLY quote verbatim, without adding, subtracting or modifying

The church is not no longer, its in eclipse like our Lady of La Salette said, its been predicted in so many places, the Book of Daniel for one: Daniel 8:11 8:12 8:13 11:31 12:11 wake up!!!

 

[Portrait]

And what about those who don’t have the law, but still do what the law requires?

Dear St.TommyMore,

Cordial greetings and a warm welcome to CAF.

There is sufficient knowledge in all men subsequent to the Fall to be criminally accountable for sin, for according to St. Paul they have suppressed the truth that they have both received and understood. Every man has received the law of God in one form or another and every man has broken it in one way or another. That is the fundamental problem that faces all men as they move swiftly towards the Day of Judgement.

As regards the pagan who lives up to the light that he receives and who has aspirations after goodness, I do not believe that God in His infinite love will allow such a man to be eternally lost without first granting him the opportunity to embrace the Gospel of salavation. The invincibly ignorant will be brought to the truth of Christianity (and the Church) by miraculous means, if that is deemed necessary, in order to procure their salvation. Indeed, this has actually occured in the past; saints have been specifically raised from the dead to receive Holy Baptism and saints have been relocated to preach Christ to the natives etc. With this St. Thomas Aquinas is in full agreement:

“If a man should have no one to instruct him, God will shew him, unless he culpably wishes to reamain where he is”.

“If a man be born among barbarian nations, does what he can, God Himself will show him what is necessary for salvation, either by inspiration or by sending a teacher to him”.

This makes perfect sense given that God desires all men to be saved and come unto a knowledge of the truth. Moreover, it chimes with what St. Paul said to the Roman’s respecting the un-evangelised: “For ‘every one who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved’. But how are men to call upon them in whom they have not believed? And how are they to hear without a preacher? And how can men preach unless they are sent?..So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by the preaching of Christ” (Rom. 10: 13-15a, 17, added emphasis mine). A very good example of this is the narrative in the Acts of the Ethiopian Eunuch (Acts 8), where God ensured that this good man and seeker after truth had the opportunity of having both Jesus preached to him and Baptism to regenerate him and make him a member of the Church. Now all this is surely very far removed from the idea that men can still be saved without hearing about the Gospel or Christ, and how does one accommodate the whole spurious notion of ‘anonymous Christians’ into all this?

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax

 

[Pitcharan]

You can’t change something that was declared true from the chair of St. Peter and then say its no longer true and say this is the new truth, thats why the new mass is invalid because it is a new religion, a false church predicted in many places, one being our lady of la salette, in the book of Daniel etc. Bother jr is a evil heretic and so are these anti-popes

The church is not no longer, its in eclipse like our Lady of La Salette said, its been predicted in so many places, the Book of Daniel for one: Daniel 8:11 8:12 8:13 11:31 12:11 wake up!!!

My spiritual instinct tells me that you need psychiatric treatment

 

[StTommyMore]

Dear St.TommyMore,

Cordial greetings and a warm welcome to CAF.

There is sufficient knowledge in all men subsequent to the Fall to be criminally accountable for sin, for according to St. Paul they have suppressed the truth that they have both received and understood. Every man has received the law of God in one form or another and every man has broken it in one way or another. That is the fundamental problem that faces all men as they move swiftly towards the Day of Judgement.

As regards the pagan who lives up to the light that he receives and who has aspirations after goodness, I do not believe that God in His infinite love will allow such a man to be eternally lost without first granting him the opportunity to embrace the Gospel of salavation. The invincibly ignorant will be brought to the truth of Christianity (and the Church) by miraculous means, if that is deemed necessary, in order to procure their salvation. Indeed, this has actually occured in the past; saints have been specifically raised from the dead to receive Holy Baptism and saints have been relocated to preach Christ to the natives etc. With this St. Thomas Aquinas is in full agreement:

“If a man should have no one to instruct him, God will shew him, unless he culpably wishes to reamain where he is”.

“If a man be born among barbarian nations, does what he can, God Himself will show him what is necessary for salvation, either by inspiration or by sending a teacher to him”.

This makes perfect sense given that God desires all men to be saved and come unto a knowledge of the truth. Moreover, it chimes with what St. Paul said to the Roman’s respecting the un-evangelised: “For ‘every one who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved’. But how are men to call upon them in whom they have not believed? And how are they to hear without a preacher? And how can men preach unless they are sent?..So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by the preaching of Christ” (Rom. 10: 13-15a, 17, added emphasis mine). A very good example of this is the narrative in the Acts of the Ethiopian Eunuch (Acts 8), where God ensured that this good man and seeker after truth had the opportunity of having both Jesus preached to him and Baptism to regenerate him and make him a member of the Church. Now all this is surely very far removed from the idea that men can still be saved without hearing about the Gospel or Christ, and how does one accommodate the whole spurious notion of ‘anonymous Christians’ into all this?

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax

I think you are still operating under the assumption that “church” is to be taken as the visible, institutional church. Am I correct?

 

[Pitcharan]

…God ensured that this good man and seeker after truth had the opportunity of having both Jesus preached to him and Baptism to regenerate him and make him a member of the Church. Now all this is surely very far removed from the idea that men can still be saved without hearing about the Gospel or Christ, and how does one accommodate the whole spurious notion of ‘anonymous Christians’ into all this?

Are you saying that irrespective of the life people lead, their final justification can only be through baptismal regeneration? I got a different idea when I read the same verses you quoted and some more: Rom 2:6-29, 1Tim 2:1-4, & 1Cor 1:17

 

[StTommyMore]

You can’t change something that was declared true from the chair of St. Peter and then say its no longer true and say this is the new truth, thats why the new mass is invalid because it is a new religion, a false church predicted in many places, one being our lady of la salette, in the book of Daniel etc. Bother jr is a evil heretic and so are these anti-popes

edevacantism is an absolutely untenable position