Salvation outside the Church

[StTommyMore]

Dear RosaryCrusader, neither me nor other like minded posters on this thread suggest rejecting any CC dogma, but are merely debating your interpretation of EENS.

THE CC IS GOD’S OWN MYSTICAL BODY AND AN INSTITUTION FOR SALVATION AND NOT DAMNATION.

For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him. (Jn 3:17) Our Lord Himself said:“As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day.” (Jn 12:47-48).

However, He said nothing about those who did not hear His words. So it is obvious, that neither the Lord nor His church ever talked about damnation of those who never heard His words. You are drawing your own meaning of EENS.

The CC merely warns the faithful about "false teachings on salvation other than that preached by the church"

And don’t forget St. Paul’s warnings about the faithful following “another Gospel.” I would say that those who are saved without being members of the Church are very very very vary minuscule, but they do exist.

 

[At_Trent]

Here is the question for those who vehemently oppose the strict interpretation of EENS and the Feeneyites:

Do you accept the four regularized groups of the Saint Benedict Center (Feeneyites) as your fellow Catholic brothers and sisters in full communion with the mystical Body of Christ, in good standing?

I accept that the Church has the authority to teach and define the dogmas of the Catholic faith.
I accept what the Pope teaches, as the head of the Church.

Will you answer my question to chypmonk?

Do you accept the entire Dogmatic Constitution of the Church LUMEN GENTIUM as
Solemnly Promulgated by his Holiness Pope Paul VI or do you place yourself outside of the Church by your failure to ‘be subject to the Roman Pontiff’?

Gee that reads like a sidestep, inquisition, and judgment all wrapped up in a nice tidy little package :ehh:

We keep seeing posts similar to “one must accept the teachings, with the current ones taking priority” , but when one, or group, is identified as traditionalist, then pick and choose is ok again.

I thought that was the problem some see with traditionalists ?

 

[At_Trent]

And don’t forget St. Paul’s warnings about the faithful following “another Gospel.” I would say that those who are saved without being members of the Church are very very very vary minuscule, but they do exist.

Dang Carl, that’s just this side of being a Feeneyite !

Actually, it may be a safe stance.

 

[StTommyMore]

Dang Carl, that’s just this side of being a Feeneyite !

Actually, it may be a safe stance.

I believe that this is the proper stance in that it confirms the preeminence of the Church, but at the same time allows for the fact that God is not bound by the Sacraments, altough we as humans are.

 

[At_Trent]

I believe that this is the proper stance in that it confirms the preeminence of the Church, but at the same time allows for the fact that God is not bound by the Sacraments, altough we as humans are.

I can agree with that.

 

[Shin]

For reference on the small number of Catholics saved:

On the Small Number of the Elect

The Little Number of Those Who Are Saved

I’ll note that this is within the Church. Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus.

‘Since their eternal happiness, consisting in the vision of God, exceeds the common state of nature, and especially in so far as this is deprived of grace through the corruption of original sin, those who are saved are in the minority. In this especially, however, appears the mercy of God, that He has chosen some for that salvation, from which very many in accordance with the common course and tendency of nature fall short.’

St. Thomas Aquinas

‘In the Great Deluge in the days of Noah, nearly all mankind perished, eight persons alone being saved in the Ark. In our days a deluge, not of water but of sins, continually inundates the earth, and out of this deluge very few escape. Scarcely anyone is saved.’

St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori

The practical reasons why the saved are few is an interesting subject, and I think spiritually necessary subject to learn. I think St. Thomas provides food for thought on that.

 

[RosaryCrusader]

I accept that the Church has the authority to teach and define the dogmas of the Catholic faith.
I accept what the Pope teaches, as the head of the Church.

Will you answer my question to chypmonk?

Do you accept the entire Dogmatic Constitution of the Church LUMEN GENTIUM as
Solemnly Promulgated by his Holiness Pope Paul VI or do you place yourself outside of the Church by your failure to ‘be subject to the Roman Pontiff’?

I’ll gladly answer your question as soon as you answer mine. Do you accept the four Feeneyite religious orders, who are in full communion with the Church and allowed to teach the doctrine of Fr. Feeney, as your fellow Catholic brothers and sisters in the faith?

 

[JM3]

I’ll gladly answer your question as soon as you answer mine. Do you accept the four Feeneyite religious orders, who are in full communion with the Church and allowed to teach the doctrine of Fr. Feeney, as your fellow Catholic brothers and sisters in the faith?

I did answer your question, but I will restate it.

If you say that the four Feeneyite religious orders are in full communion with the Church and allowed to teach the doctrine of Fr. Feeney, Then I do not accept your authority to make that declaration.

If the Feeneyite religious orders say that they are in full communion with the Church and allowed to teach Fr. Feeney’s doctrine, Then I do not accept their authority to make that declaration.

If the Pope says that the Feeneyite religious orders are in full communion with the Church and allowed to teach the doctrine of Fr. Feeney, then I accept the authority of the Pope to make that declaration.

 

[JM3]

Gee that reads like a sidestep, inquisition, and judgment all wrapped up in a nice tidy little package :ehh:

We keep seeing posts similar to “one must accept the teachings, with the current ones taking priority” , but when one, or group, is identified as traditionalist, then pick and choose is ok again.

I thought that was the problem some see with traditionalists ?

My limited intellegence is not sure who you are talking about, or exactly what you’re saying. Maybe, if you come down to my 6th grade level?

This is what I am saying:

The Lord gave the Holy Spirit to the Church at Pentecost and the Church has been guided by the Holy Spirit ever since. The Church, guided by the Holy Spirit, cannot contradict itself. If it appears to someone that the teaching of the Church, or the dogmas of the Church, have changed, then it is an error in that persons reasoning and not an error with the Church.

A quote from The Sinner’s Guide by Venerable Louis of Granada:

“The first source of sin is error in the understanding, which is the natural guide and counselor of the will. The chief endeavor of the devil is to darken the understanding and thus draw the will into error. He strives to make us believe that our desire is just and that not to follow it is to act against the dictates of reason.”

The bottom line of this thread is not who will and who won’t be saved, but who will, or who will not, put the authority of the Church above their own authority or will.

 

[RosaryCrusader]

I did answer your question, but I will restate it.

If you say that the four Feeneyite religious orders are in full communion with the Church and allowed to teach the doctrine of Fr. Feeney, Then I do not accept your authority to make that declaration.

If the Feeneyite religious orders say that they are in full communion with the Church and allowed to teach Fr. Feeney’s doctrine, Then I do not accept their authority to make that declaration.

If the Pope says that the Feeneyite religious orders are in full communion with the Church and allowed to teach the doctrine of Fr. Feeney, then I accept the authority of the Pope to make that declaration.

It’s a yes or no. I know that’s quite painful sometimes. The information showing that all four branches are in full communion with the Church is on this thread and easily attained elsewhere online or by phone call to their local Chanceries. So far you’ve acknowledged that the Pope has the authority to make a declaration on the matter but have not answered unequivocally.

 

[RosaryCrusader]

I will gladly listen if it has explicit clearance from the CC as per laid down procedure.

Do you only listen to your pastor’s sermon on sunday if “has explicit clearance from the CC as per laid down procedure.”?

 

[JM3]

It’s a yes or no. I know that’s quite painful sometimes. The information showing that all four branches are in full communion with the Church is on this thread and easily attained elsewhere online or by phone call to their local Chanceries. So far you’ve acknowledged that the Pope has the authority to make a declaration on the matter but have not answered unequivocally.

Your condescension is noted.

Whether or not they are in full communion with the Church is not up to me. It is a decision for the Pope, or those he chooses, to make.

If the Pope has made this decision, then show me the document. I see no reason for me to search 450+ posts to prove your point.

As an aside. If you check the post about them getting a priest with faculties, you will find that I was the first to applaud them (yes, a small toot of my own horn ).

 

[At_Trent]

My limited intellegence is not sure who you are talking about, or exactly what you’re saying. Maybe, if you come down to my 6th grade level?

This is what I am saying:

The Lord gave the Holy Spirit to the Church at Pentecost and the Church has been guided by the Holy Spirit ever since. The Church, guided by the Holy Spirit, cannot contradict itself. If it appears to someone that the teaching of the Church, or the dogmas of the Church, have changed, then it is an error in that persons reasoning and not an error with the Church.

A quote from The Sinner’s Guide by Venerable Louis of Granada:

“The first source of sin is error in the understanding, which is the natural guide and counselor of the will. The chief endeavor of the devil is to darken the understanding and thus draw the will into error. He strives to make us believe that our desire is just and that not to follow it is to act against the dictates of reason.”

The bottom line of this thread is not who will and who won’t be saved, but who will, or who will not, put the authority of the Church above their own authority or will.

Are you in the sixth grade ? Honest question, I don’t know

 

[JM3]

Are you in the sixth grade ?

No. A vague reference to Jethro of the Beverly Hillbillies.

 

[At_Trent]

No. A vague reference to Jethro of the Beverly Hillbillies.

Well, then you should know what I meant.

 

[JM3]

Well, then you should know what I meant.

yeah, whatever.

 

[Pitcharan]

Do you only listen to your pastor’s sermon on sunday if “has explicit clearance from the CC as per laid down procedure.”?

How do I assume that the Pastor mentioned by you is an annointed Catholic priest?

There are NO restrictions about listening to the Pastor at church. But for a sermon or homily to get published (either as a video or audio or in print), there is well laid down procedure. Even the sermons of St. John Mary de Vianney, were published only as per this procedure

 

[Thomas_Casey]

Some posters have reduced this thread to a discussion about each other, instead of trying to understand the subject at hand.

CLOSED