Salvation Outside the Church????

[civilwar]

Hey, so I’m sure this question has been asked here many times before and in different ways, so I’ll try to keep it simple.

What, in non-complicated-theological terms, is meant by “there is no salvation outside the Church”?

I just read this: catholicism.org/eens-popes.html - a list of Popes on the matter.

My automatic interpretation of what they are saying is: “Being a non-Catholic Christian is NOT enough to be saved”. Is that the jist of it? But my in my heart I find that hard to believe.

 

[Hans_W]

Well, as you can see the rhetoric finishes in the 1950s.
This kind of talk is often directed against the Catholic Church by some fundamentalist denominations,

 

[Joe_5859]

Hey, so I’m sure this question has been asked here many times before and in different ways, so I’ll try to keep it simple.

What, in non-complicated-theological terms, is meant by “there is no salvation outside the Church”?

I just read this: catholicism.org/eens-popes.html - a list of Popes on the matter.

My automatic interpretation of what they are saying is: “Being a non-Catholic Christian is NOT enough to be saved”. Is that the jist of it? But my in my heart I find that hard to believe.

The Catechism addesses this beautifully:

“Outside the Church there is no salvation”

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

The Church is the Body of Christ. Christ saves us. Thus, salvation comes to us through the Church – whether we recognize it or not.

This does not mean necessarily that one must be a visible, card-carrying member of the Catholic Church in order to be saved. It could mean that. But it doesn’t have to.

 

[MacQ]

Hey, so I’m sure this question has been asked here many times before and in different ways, so I’ll try to keep it simple.

What, in non-complicated-theological terms, is meant by “there is no salvation outside the Church”?

I just read this: catholicism.org/eens-popes.html - a list of Popes on the matter.

My automatic interpretation of what they are saying is: “Being a non-Catholic Christian is NOT enough to be saved”. Is that the jist of it? But my in my heart I find that hard to believe.

Of COURSE there is salvation outside the roman catholic church.
Your “automatic interpretation” is kinda simplistic and could equally say Being a catholic isn’t enough.

Certainly the Church teaching is that there’s certainly salvation for non catholics.

 

[Joe_5859]

Of COURSE there is salvation outside the roman catholic church.
Your “automatic interpretation” is kinda simplistic and could equally say Being a catholic isn’t enough.

Certainly the Church teaching is that there’s certainly salvation for non catholics.

I wouldn’t say “certainly”. There is a profound hope. The only thing “certain”, though, is what God has revealed. And the revealed path to salvation is Baptism in Christ. But though God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, He Himself is not bound by the sacraments.

So we want to do our best to follow the revealed path and encourage others to do the same. But we trust the rest to God’s infinite mercy.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

The Catechism addesses this beautifully:

“
The Church is the Body of Christ. Christ saves us. Thus, salvation comes to us through the Church – whether we recognize it or not.

Works for me. Christ came to save all men, to bring all men home to the Body of Christ.

That would include those who suffer from invincible ignorance.

The gates of heaven are open to them as well.

Not so sure it includes atheists when they have been offered the Body of Christ and deny it.
​

​

 

[MacQ]

I wouldn’t say “certainly”. There is a profound hope. The only thing “certain”, though, is what God has revealed. And the revealed path to salvation is Baptism in Christ. But though God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, He Himself is not bound by the sacraments.

So we want to do our best to follow the revealed path and encourage others to do the same. But we trust the rest to God’s infinite mercy.

Very nicely put.

 

[civilwar]

Thanks for all the replies, but it doesn’t fully answer my question.
I understand that being a Catholic isn’t enough for salvation, obviously.
But WHY did the Popes in the article I linked and the Church Fathers say that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church, if what MEANT something else, something that took more reading into, ie. that there were exceptions? I’m wondering why say it?
You might say my immediate interpretation of what they mean is simplistic, but shouldn’t what someone MEANS be pretty clear from what they say?

In a sense, and no offense meant, it seems to me that people are trying to put words in these Popes and Church Fathers mouths by saying “well this is what they meant”.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

In a sense, and no offense meant, it seems to me that people are trying to put words in these Popes and Church Fathers mouths by saying “well this is what they meant”.

Fair question.

Try it this way.

The Catholic Church is the Body of Christ. Consciously reject the Body of Christ and you reject Christ.

Then hear what Christ has to say about that.

“Everyone who acknowledges me before others I will acknowledge before my heavenly Father. But whoever denies me before others, I will deny before my heavenly Father.” Matthew 10:32-33

It’s clear from what Christ says that if he is knowingly denied, we are lost.

But he must first be known to be denied.

The Catholic Church is the Body of Christ.

Knowingly deny the claim of the Catholic Church that she is the Body of Christ, and you knowingly deny Christ.

Isn’t that all the popes have said? What Christ himself said.

John 14:6 ► Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”

Not through Martin Luther. Not through John Calvin. Not through Henry VIII. Etc.

 

[dmar198]

Thanks for all the replies, but it doesn’t fully answer my question.
I understand that being a Catholic isn’t enough for salvation, obviously.
But WHY did the Popes in the article I linked and the Church Fathers say that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church, if what MEANT something else, something that took more reading into, ie. that there were exceptions? I’m wondering why say it?
You might say my immediate interpretation of what they mean is simplistic, but shouldn’t what someone MEANS be pretty clear from what they say?

In a sense, and no offense meant, it seems to me that people are trying to put words in these Popes and Church Fathers mouths by saying “well this is what they meant”.

I think part of the problem is that the phrase “No Salvation Outside the Church” is incomplete unless you remember that any person of good will is mystically part of the Church. This is because all people of good will are only called that because they are trying to follow the light that they have been given, and that’s all that God requires.

Does that help?

 

[HelenRose]

Thanks for all the replies, but it doesn’t fully answer my question.
I understand that being a Catholic isn’t enough for salvation, obviously.
But WHY did the Popes in the article I linked and the Church Fathers say that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church, if what MEANT something else, something that took more reading into, ie. that there were exceptions? I’m wondering why say it?
You might say my immediate interpretation of what they mean is simplistic, but shouldn’t what someone MEANS be pretty clear from what they say?

In a sense, and no offense meant, it seems to me that people are trying to put words in these Popes and Church Fathers mouths by saying “well this is what they meant”.

Here is one way to look at it: The Catholic Church is much more than the visible Church here on Earth. God in His infinite Mercy makes the final judgment as to who will ultimately be inside or outside the Catholic Church after death. Heaven is the Catholic Church. Salvation is the Catholic Church.

I realize that it is hard to get past the desire for complete explanation of all nuances and statements of everything that every pope has said for the last 2,000 years. I hope that this stumbling block does not hinder your hope for your loved ones that are still on their journey to Christ and His Church.

 

[civilwar]

Thanks for the replies, they have helped somewhat, although I still wonder why they said there is no salvation outside the Roman Catholic Church if what they meant was the “Universal Church” or the Body of Christ. And I do understand that the Catholic Church IS both of those things. Hmm…

Guess I’ll just have to move on.

 

[HelenRose]

I know that this question is visited and revisited and revisited. It really is a hard one to come to terms with. For myself, I am leaving the judgement of each individual up to Christ. I find that I can not presume God’s mercy nor can I presume God’s judgement.

I have willingly given to God-to Christ my loved ones. I ask for and I trust in God’s mercy for myself and for them.

Faith, Hope, Love
These three but the greatest of these is Love.

 

[hazcompat]

For me there is not!

Peace

 

[ProdglArchitect]

Thanks for the replies, they have helped somewhat, although I still wonder why they said there is no salvation outside the Roman Catholic Church if what they meant was the “Universal Church” or the Body of Christ. And I do understand that the Catholic Church IS both of those things. Hmm…

Guess I’ll just have to move on.

It is also important to understand the historical context under which the proclamation was made. This was stated most explicitly during the era of the protestant reformation, in which people were making the active, conscious decision to abandon God’s church in favor of protestant denominations. There is a little bit more to the explanation in the Catechism:

Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

This statement was directed at the people who fit the bill for this part. They were Catholic, had been raised Catholic, and had been catechized as Catholics, with all that entails; and many of them made the conscious decision to abandon the Church.

The same can not be said as easily for the descendants of people who abandoned the Church. Given that they did not receive proper catechesis, it cannot be assumed that they meet the criteria of 'Knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ." Therefore, we cannot assume that they have the proper intent and knowledge to be held accountable for not being Catholic. In those instances, if they are granted mercy by God and welcomed into Heaven, it will be by the grace of God through the sacrifice of our Lord. As the Church is the body of Christ on Earth, it can be said that she is at least tangentially necessary and active in this salvation, since She is part of Christ, and it is through her continual sacrifice and prayer the Christ’s will is enacted in the world.

 

[TarkanAttila]

Thanks for the replies, they have helped somewhat, although I still wonder why they said there is no salvation outside the Roman Catholic Church if what they meant was the “Universal Church” or the Body of Christ. And I do understand that the Catholic Church IS both of those things. Hmm…

Christ founded only one Church. And that was the Catholic Church, Roman or otherwise. And only in the Catholic Church does one find salvation. Other bodies of Christians inherited salvation from the Church, which is the source of their baptism, Bible, and in some cases bishops and sacraments, too.

In other words, the Catholic Church is mother not only to us, but also to all heresies and heretics - and properly, the heretics should come home to their mother.

 

[dmar198]

Thanks for the replies, they have helped somewhat, although I still wonder why they said there is no salvation outside the Roman Catholic Church if what they meant was the “Universal Church” or the Body of Christ. And I do understand that the Catholic Church IS both of those things. Hmm…

Guess I’ll just have to move on.

I think it is helpful to point out that the Church Fathers and medieval doctors did clarify this point because they did not only say “Outside the Church there is no salvation.” They made it clear that non-Catholics can be saved under the conditions laid out by the Catechism.

Here are some examples:

97 A.D. - Pope St. Clement I - “Let us go through all generations, and learn that in generation and generation the Master has given a place of repentance to those willing to turn to Him. Noah preached repentance, and those who heard him were saved. Jonah preached repentance to the Ninivites; those who repented for their sins appeased God in praying, and received salvation, even though they were aliens of God.” (1 Clement 7:5-7)

157 A.D. - St. Justin Martyr - “Christ is the Logos [Divine Word] of whom the whole race of men partake. Those who lived according to Logos are Christians, even if they were considered atheists, such as, among the Greeks, Socrates and Heraclitus.” (First Apology 46)

180 A.D. - St. Irenaeus - “Christ came not only for those who believed from the time of Tiberius Caesar, nor did the Father provide only for those who [are currently alive], but for absolutely all men from the beginning, who according to their ability, feared and loved God and lived justly…and desired to see Christ and to hear His voice.” (Against Heresies Book IV Chapter 22 Paragraph 2)

~335 A.D. - Hegemonius of Chalcedon - “From the creation of the world [God] has always been with just men. … Were they not made just from the fact that they kept the law, ‘Each one of them showing the work of the law on their hearts…?’ For when someone who does not have the law does by nature the things of the law, this one, not having the law, is a law for himself. … For if we judge that a man is made just without the works of the law…how much more will they attain justice who fulfilled the law containing those things which are expedient for men?” (Acts of Archelaus with Manes)

~340 A.D. - Eusebius of Caesarea - “But even if we [Christians] are certainly new…yet our life and mode of conduct, in accord with the precepts of religion, has not been recently invented by us; but from the first creation of man, so to speak, it is upheld by natural inborn concepts of the ancient men who loved God… But if someone would describe as Christians those who are testified to as having been righteous [going back] from Abraham to the first man, he would not hit wide of the truth.” (Church History Book I Chapter 1 Paragraph 4)

374 A.D. - St. Gregory Nazianzus - “[A certain pagan] was ours even before he was of our fold. His way of living made him such. For…many of those outside [the Church] belong to us, who by their way of life anticipate the faith, and need [only] the name, having the reality.” (Oration 18:6)

384 A.D. - St. John Chrysostom - “And Peter,” it says, “opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons.” (Acts 10:34.) … Was He “a respecter of persons” beforetime? God forbid! For beforetime likewise it was just the same: “Every one,” as he saith, “that feareth Him, and worketh righteousness, would be acceptable to Him.” As when Paul saith, “For when the Gentiles which have not the Law, do by nature the things of the Law.” (Rom. ii. 14.) “That feareth God and worketh righteousness:” he assumes both doctrine and manner of life: is “accepted with Him;” for, if He did not overlook the Magi, nor the Ethiopian, nor the thief, nor the harlot, much more them that work righteousness, and are willing, shall He in anywise not overlook. “What say you then to this, that there are likely persons, men of mild disposition, and yet they will not believe?” Lo, you have yourself named the cause: they will not. But besides the likely person he here speaks of is not this sort of man, but the man “that worketh righteousness:” that is, the man who in all points is virtuous and irreproachable, when he has the fear of God as he ought to have it. But whether a person be such, God only knows. See how this man was acceptable: see how, as soon as he heard, he was persuaded.’’

[cont’d next post]

 

[dmar198]

[cont’d from last post]

395 A.D. - St. Augustine - “[Y]ou are not considered at fault if you, against your will, are ignorant; however, if you are ignorant because you fail to ask, you are at fault. … So even now, if ignorance of the truth and difficulty in behaving rightly are [natural]…no one properly condemns the soul because of its natural origin. But if a man refuses to strive for excellence, or wills to step back from where he set out, he justly and properly suffers punishment.” (On Free Choice of the Will Volume III Chapter 19)

~440 A.D. - St. Cyril of Alexandria - “[The Lord] is also the God of the gentiles, and has fully satisfied by laws implanted in their hearts, which the Maker has engraved in the hearts of all. For when the gentiles, [Paul] says, not having the law, do by nature the things of the law, they show the work of the law written on their hearts. But since He is not only the Maker and God of the Jews, but also of the gentiles…He sees fit by His providence to care not only for those who are of the blood of Israel, but also for all those upon the earth.” (Against Julian 3)

593 A.D. - Pope St. Gregory the Great - “The passion of the Church began already with Abel, and there is one Church of the elect, of those who precede, and of those who follow. … They were, then, outside, but yet not divided from the holy Church, because in mind, in work, in preaching, they already held the sacraments of faith, and saw that loftiness of Holy Church.” (Homilies on Ezekiel Book II Chapter 3 Paragraph 16)

~853 A.D. - Haymo of Halberstadt - “[Some pagans] show surely that they have the natural law written on their hearts, and they are the law for themselves: because they do the things that the law teaches, even though it was not given to them. For example, the Saracens who have neither the law of Moses nor of the Gospel, while by nature they keep the law, do not commit murder, or commit adultery, or other things, which the law written within them contains; they are a law to themselves. … In the second way: When the gentiles…naturally do the things…because they have the same law of Moses written on their hearts by the inspiration of Almighty God…‘their conscience bearing witness to them, and their thoughts in turn accusing or even defending.’ And when will this be? ‘On the day when the Lord will judge the hidden things of men’ according to my Gospel.” (Exposition on Romans 2:14-16)

~990 A.D. - Oecumenius - " ‘They do the things of the law’ using the reasonings of nature for just actions. These are wonderful, not needing a teacher, being their own lawgivers and fulfillers of the legislation. … ‘Their conscience bearing witness to them,’ for it is enough in place of the law to have their own conscience testifying for them. … At that judgment we do not need external accusers or witnesses…but each one’s own reasonings and conscience either accuses or defends." (On Romans 2:14-16)

1532 A.D. - Francisco de Vitoria - “For [those] to whom no preaching of the faith or Christian religion has come…if they do what in them lies, accompanied by a good life according to the law of nature, it is consistent with God’s providence [that] He will illuminate them regarding the name of Christ [so that they may be saved]… [And] if before hearing anything of the Christian religion they were excused [from the sin of unbelief], they are put under no fresh obligation by a simple declaration and announcement of [the gospel], for such announcement is no proof or incentive to belief… Nay…it would be rash and imprudent for any one to believe anything, especially in matters which concern salvation, unless he knows that this is asserted by a man worthy of credence…[therefore] matters of faith are seen and become evident by reason of their credibility.”

1863 - Blessed Pope Pius IX - “There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments.” (Quanto Conficiamur Moerore 7)

 

[civilwar]

It is also important to understand the historical context under which the proclamation was made. This was stated most explicitly during the era of the protestant reformation, in which people were making the active, conscious decision to abandon God’s church in favor of protestant denominations. There is a little bit more to the explanation in the Catechism:

This statement was directed at the people who fit the bill for this part. They were Catholic, had been raised Catholic, and had been catechized as Catholics, with all that entails; and many of them made the conscious decision to abandon the Church.

The same can not be said as easily for the descendants of people who abandoned the Church. Given that they did not receive proper catechesis, it cannot be assumed that they meet the criteria of 'Knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ." Therefore, we cannot assume that they have the proper intent and knowledge to be held accountable for not being Catholic. In those instances, if they are granted mercy by God and welcomed into Heaven, it will be by the grace of God through the sacrifice of our Lord. As the Church is the body of Christ on Earth, it can be said that she is at least tangentially necessary and active in this salvation, since She is part of Christ, and it is through her continual sacrifice and prayer the Christ’s will is enacted in the world.

This reply was most helpful, thank you!

 

[ProdglArchitect]

This reply was most helpful, thank you!

I’m happy to be able to help ^^ God Bless!