Salvation question

[tm30]

His repentance was a work of mercy. It brought consolation to Our Lord at His darkest hour. So it wasn’t just faith being demonstrated on that cross.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

The works of mercy performed were listed in several of the posts in this thread already (like post #14 for example).

As for confessing sins to a priest, did not Christ tell the Apostles to “go…who’s sins you forgive are forgiven them…”? How could a priest forgive my sins if I did not first confess them to him?

Thanks again. I looked at 14 again. I guess I dont see how instructing the sinner is an act of mercy. I would more see that as preaching the truth about Jesus Christ.Which I guess I would see as an act of love. What faith that robber had to believe that Christ was going to rise from the dead and reign forever. I mean nothing had happened yet and he was going to die and had no proof (so to speak) We werent there but we still have the bible to read the accounts of Christ—although we still do have to have faith that it is all true.

Whichever way you look at it–it is an awesome testimony to Christ and His Agape love and forgiveness for us sinners.

 

[E.E.N.S]

Thanks again. I looked at 14 again. I guess I dont see how instructing the sinner is an act of mercy. I would more see that as preaching the truth about Jesus Christ.Which I guess I would see as an act of love.

Maybe it is because you possibly don’t realize what is actually taking place. Remember the parable of the good Samaritan? The person on the side of the road is the sinner, and the thief, by instructing the sinner becomes the good Samaritan by helping the “sick man” from his sickness - sin.

Does that make a little more sense now?

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Maybe it is because you possibly don’t realize what is actually taking place. Remember the parable of the good Samaritan? The person on the side of the road is the sinner, and the thief, by instructing the sinner becomes the good Samaritan by helping the “sick man” from his sickness - sin.

Does that make a little more sense now?

Yes, thank you. I look at it this way. The robber had faith and he exhibited his faith by the one and only ministry he could do which was rebuke the other robber in order to glorify Jesus–which Im sure he was rewarded for in heaven.

 

[E.E.N.S]

Yes, thank you. I look at it this way. The robber had faith and he exhibited his faith by the one and only ministry he could do which was rebuke the other robber in order to glorify Jesus–which Im sure he was rewarded for in heaven.

That is a work of mercy.

 

[mrs_abbott]

Hi,
IMHO I feel this was put in the bible to specifically show us that faith saves. I believe we were given an example. It is true we do not know anything about the thief other then he accepted Christ on his death bed(cross) I would think that in and of itself is enough to prove faith alone saves. Of course Im looking at this from a purely spiritual point of view.

I see where you’re coming from on this. It paints a clear picture that Jesus saves those who believe in Him. I know this is basic but that’s how Jesus was.

 

[E.E.N.S]

I see where you’re coming from on this. It paints a clear picture that Jesus saves those who believe in Him. I know this is basic but Jesus that’s how Jesus was.

Right. Then the next question would be, “what does it mean to believe?” (I think you will find the answer to this question and how it applies to this particular situation in the posts above, like post # 14 for example.)

 

[mrs_abbott]

Right. Then the next question would be, “what does it mean to believe?” (I think you will find the answer to this question and how it applies to this particular situation in the posts above, like post # 14 for example.)

Post #14 talks about confession. How does that pertain to believing in Christ?

 

[E.E.N.S]

Post #14 talks about confession. How does that pertain to believing in Christ?

It did more than talk about confession, it talked about the means for salvation (which pertains to what it would mean to believe, if we are talking about believing as the means for salvation.)

itsjustdave1988:

It is strange that a Protestant will see in the same narrative of Scripture, supposed evidence his “faith alone” doctrine, when it seems clear to Christians, to include the commentaries of ancient Christianity on this passage, that this thief was manifesting his sin (confession) before our high priest, showing sorrow (contrition) and suffering satisfaction (penance), being forgiven by the priest (absolution), complete with meritorious deeds worthy of his repentence (works of mercy: adomishing the sinner, instructing the ignorant). This is indeed an example of the means of salvation, but it is a very Catholic example.

 

[mrs_abbott]

It did more than talk about confession, it talked about the means for salvation (which pertains to what it would mean to believe, if we are talking about believing as the means for salvation.)

Sorry, all I saw was the Catholic penance/contrition rite. I’ll take your word for it, though.
We are to be “born again” before we can enter Heaven. If that’s what happens each and every time you confess your sins, then yes, it is a means for salvation.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Right. Then the next question would be, “what does it mean to believe?” (I think you will find the answer to this question and how it applies to this particular situation in the posts above, like post # 14 for example.)

Hi,
My Webster dictionary says the definition of believe is:

1.)To accept as real or true,

2.)To credit with veracity

3.) To think, suppose

4.)To hold religious beliefs.

I dont see any of the other words mentioned in your definition in post 14.

 

[heisenburg]

keep in mind… we are required to do mroe than jsut believe… even those in hell believe…

In Christ

 

[mrs_abbott]

keep in mind… we are required to do mroe than jsut believe… even those in hell believe…

In Christ

Right. It’s called having an active faith, versus a dead one. An active faith entails much more than simply believing. It also involves living your faith and sharing it with everyone you meet.

 

[scriabin]

Regarding the OP question:

Go to EWTN’s Catholic Q&A section and search for “good thief.”

Fr. John Echert’s answer on 06-21-2002 and Michelle Arnold’s answer on 03-24-2004 are particularly effective.

 

[Huiou_Theou]

The Catholic doctrine is that faith working through love is salvific.

The inital grace of baptism is insufficient to save one who sins mortally following the baptism, or even during it.
Hence, the thief on the other cross – although baptised in blood – doesn’t receive the blessing of our lord.

In general all christian denominations agree that salvation to heaven is a gift (grace). The division comes over the word – alone – and what it means with respect to faith.
One can’t be saved unless they are changed such that they would do works of God when given the opportunity.

Thanks for the confession slant, itsjustdave1988.
I liked that.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Hi,
My Webster dictionary says the definition of believe is:

1.)To accept as real or true,

2.)To credit with veracity

3.) To think, suppose

4.)To hold religious beliefs.

I dont see any of the other words mentioned in your definition in post 14.

Holy Writ demands that we… “repent (Gk metanoeo) and turn (Gk epistrepho) to God and perform deeds worthy (Gk axios ergon)** of their repentance.**” (Acts 26:20). Meritorious works (Gk axios ergon) do indeed have salvational value, as without them, we would be disobedient to the Word of God. Sins of omission can be just as damnable as sins of commission. Disobedience in performing meritorious works is the opposite of belief, according to the Bible…

“He who believes (Gk pisteuo) in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey (Gk apeitheo) the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him.” (John 3:36)Thus, the Biblical and Catholic teaching includes the need for …

1. metanoeo (repentence)
2. pisteuo (belief, obedience)
3. *epistrepho *(turning back toward God)
4. axios ergon (meritorious works)

Any soteriology which claims “faith alone” is contradictory to the Bible.“So faith (Gk pistis) by itself, if it has no works (Gk ergon), is dead.” (Jam 2:17)
The Bible asserts:
“he that is just (Gk dikaios), let him be justified (Gk dikaioo)*** still***” (Rev 22:11). And so Catholics assert that those who are already just can indeed be justified still, through “faith (Gk pistis) that worketh (Gk ergon) by Charity (Gk agape)” (Gal 5:6)

Along with James 2:17, this is what St. Paul teaches regarding the value of “faith alone”…
“if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.” (1 Cor 13:2)Since Scripture was not written in English, but was written in ancient Greek, you ought to have consulted a Greek lexicon to determine what the Biblical word translated into English means more precisely.

“Believes” is a continuous action of the faithful which connotes also continuous obedience to the Lord.

The Greek used by St. John for “does not obey” is “apeitheo”, which means “not believing” but also means “disobeys”

According to the Protestant Greek lexicon, Theological Dictionary of the New Testament by Kittel, et. al, (abridged edition):

apeitheo*. ***This word means “to be disobedient” and is a significant term in the LXX for disobedience to God. In the NT it is used of the wilderness generation in Heb 3:18, that of the flood in 1 Pet. 3:20, all sinners in Rom. 2:8, and Gentiles in Heb 11:13; Rom. 11:30. “To believe” is the opposite in Acts 14:1-2, and unbelief is parallel.

So you can see that “to believe” so as to have eternal life necessarily connotes obedience, which if one looks to Scripture, must include responding obediently to the continuous call for: metanoeo (repentence), *epistrepho *(turning back toward God), and axios ergon (meritorious works).

 

[itsjustdave1988]

With regard to the the proposition that “all you need is faith,” I also recommend this sermon from PROTESTANT pastor Rev. C.H. Spurgeon. As I see it, it explains the CATHOLIC view of the salvational value of obedience of faith very well…

C.H. Spurgeon, The Obedience of Faith, A Sermon (No. 2195), August 21st, 1890,

“By faith Abraham when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.”(Hebrews 11:8).

The part of the text to which I shall call your attention lies in these words, “By faith Abraham obeyed.” Obedience–what a blessing it would be if we were all trained to it by the Holy Spirit!

… The obedience of faith springs from a principle within, and not from compulsion without. It is sustained by the mind’s soberest reasoning and the heart’s warmest passion.

… Yes, this is a chief ingredient of heaven–that we shall see the face of our Lord, and serve him day and night in his temple. Meanwhile, the more fully we obey at this present, the nearer we shall be to his temple-gate. May the Holy Spirit work in us, so that, by faith–like Abraham–we may obey !

… For by faith Abraham obeyed." In every case where the father of the faithful obeyed, it was the result of his faith; and in every case in which you and I shall render true obedience, it will be the product of our faith.

… Have I that faith which leads me to obey my God?–for obedience, if it be of the kind we are speaking of, is faith in action–faith walking with God, or, shall I say, walking before the Lord in the land of the living? .

… Let us consider, secondly, THE KIND OF OBEDIENCE WHICH FAITH PRODUCES. This I shall illustrate from the whole of the verse. **Genuine faith in God **creates a prompt obedience. “By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed.” There was an immediate response to the command. Delayed obedience is disobedience. I wish some Christians, who put off duty, would remember this… remember that the obedience which comes of true faith is often bound to be altogether unreckoning and implicit; for it is written, “He went out, not knowing whither he went.” God bade Abraham journey, and he moved his camp at once.

God comes down to walk with men who obey. If they walk with him, he walks with them. The Lord can only have fellowship with his servants as they obey. Obedience is heaven in us, and it is the preface of our being in heaven. Obedient faith is the way to eternal life–it is eternal life revealing itself. (ibid)

Amen!!! Obedient faith is the way to eternal life!! Why? God comes down to walk with men who obey. If they walk with him, he walks with them. The Lord can only have fellowship with his servants as they obey. It needs to be “faith that worketh (Gk ergon) by charity,” (Gal 5:6) or else it is not a justifying faith, but is a dead faith. The repentent thief peformed deeds worthy of his repentence, the meritorious works of Catholic soteriology…a faith that WORKeth by charity.