Salvation requirements

[mikeledes]

Matthew 19:17 “So He said to him, Why do you call me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the ommandments.”
So you are telling me that I must substitute the words eternal life for the words enter life in this verse? That means that if I want eternal life I need to keep the commandments. That would mean that I would be just like Jesus…perfect.

Believers will not be judged for sin, according to 2 Cor. 5:21, Gal. 3:13, 1 Peter 2:24, Romans 8:1, Romans 8:33,34.

Believers will be judged for their motives at the Bema seat judgement. 1 Cor. 3:11-15 and 2 Peter 1:5-11.

The believers judgement (Bema seat) is not judicial (for sin) but it is that every believer “may be recompensed” (paid back what is due).

God Bless,
Robert

Robert, we are not required to keep the commandments perfectly for the rest of our lives in Christian order to be saved. We will sin as Christians, but reconciliation is available.

There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ. But that presupposes that a person remains in Christ. For example:

There is now no dying of hypothermia for those in Brazil

This presupposes, however, that the person remains in Brazil. Concerning Christians never falling into condemnation, I turn to:

1 Timothy 3:6 (KJV)

6Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.

6and not a new convert, so that he will not become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil. (NASB)

Note that his falling into condemnation incurred by the devil is caused by his becoming conceited. You cannot “fall into” condemnation is you never esacpe condemnation. The point of the passage is that a “babe in Christ” lacks the spiritual maturity needed for a position of leadership. If he is given a position of leadership, he can become conceited and incur eternal damnation.

What is the Bema judgement?

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Carlus_Magnus]

Requirments for salvation:
For adults:
faith, Baptism,
charity [includes charitable deeds],
sacraments of the Church, perseverence in the faith and in a state of Grace.

For infants:
Baptism, assuming they will not survive.

Proofs:

“… for if you believe not that I am He, you shall die in your sin.” (John 8:23-24)

Mark 16:16. "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall he condemned. "

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Sess. 8, Nov. 22, 1439: “Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity.– But the Catholic faith is this, that we worship one God in the Trinity, and the Trinity in unity… Therefore let him who wishes to be saved, think thus concerning the Trinity. But it is necessary for eternal salvation that he faithfully believe also in the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ…the Son of God is God and man…– This is the Catholic faith; unless each one believes this faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.”

“Let us conclude this point by giving the gist of all that has been said so far. He who prays is certainly saved. He who does not pray is certainly damned.” (St. Alphonsus, The Great Means of Salvation and Perfection, p. 30)

Pope St. Pius X, Editae saepe (# 29), May 26, 1910: “The Church alone possesses together with her magisterium the power of governing and sanctifying human society. Through her ministers and servants (each in his own station and office), she confers on mankind suitable and necessary means of salvation.”

 

[Robert902]

Robert, we are not required to keep the commandments perfectly for the rest of our lives in Christian order to be saved. We will sin as Christians, but reconciliation is available.

I agree with you and the Bible, that all Christians are sinners. Someone made the erroneous remark that a Christian doesn’t sin, and I was responding to him. He was making the point that Jesus died on the cross so that we wouldn’t sin. But the Bible teaches that Jesus died for us because we are sinners. He died for our sins, past, present and future. Praise God for that!

1 Timothy 3:6 (KJV)

6Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.

6and not a new convert, so that he will not become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil. (NASB)

Note that his falling into condemnation incurred by the devil is caused by his becoming conceited. You cannot “fall into” condemnation is you never esacpe condemnation. The point of the passage is that a “babe in Christ” lacks the spiritual maturity needed for a position of leadership. If he is given a position of leadership, he can become conceited and incur eternal damnation.

What is the Bema judgement?

The Bema judgement is the judgement for God’s elect. We are not judged for our sins (2 Cor. 5:21, Gal. 3:13. 1 Peter 2:24, Rom. 8:1,34), but are judged for our motives.
Writing to the Romans, Paul described it as the judgement seat of God. Romans 14:10-12.
All hyprocisy and pretense will be stripped away. Read 1 Sam. 16:7 and Heb. 4:13.
Remember, it is not judicial (for sin) but it is that every believer “may be recompensed” or paid back what is due.

There was a Bema at the Corinthian city where the unbelieving Jews accused Paul. Acts 18:12, 16,17.

There are two judgements; one for the elect, and another judgement for everyone else. Praise God that no believers will be judged for their sins.

God Bless,
Michael

1 Tim. 3:7 “Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil”.’

“Them which are without” means those who are outside the church. In other words, if a man has a bad reputation on the outside-if he doesn’t pay his bills, is untrustworthy, or is a liar-he immediately is not a candidate to be an officer in the church. If he is such a man he is really a candidate of the Devil-he would better represent the Devill than he would represent the cause of Christ.

God Bless,
Robert

 

[mikeledes]

The Bema judgement is the judgement for God’s elect. We are not judged for our sins (2 Cor. 5:21, Gal. 3:13. 1 Peter 2:24, Rom. 8:1,34), but are judged for our motives.
Writing to the Romans, Paul described it as the judgement seat of God. Romans 14:10-12.
All hyprocisy and pretense will be stripped away. Read 1 Sam. 16:7 and Heb. 4:13.
Remember, it is not judicial (for sin) but it is that every believer “may be recompensed” or paid back what is due.

There was a Bema at the Corinthian city where the unbelieving Jews accused Paul. Acts 18:12, 16,17.

Robert, the Bible never makes reference to two last judgements. There will only be one judgement at Our Lord’s second coming in which he shall render to everyone according to their works. Before his judgement seat, all will appear.

Matthew 16:27

27For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Matthew 25:31-46

31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Romans 2:5-8

6Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath.

John 5:27-29

**27And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. **

There will be only one judgement when Jesus Christ comes and it is in that judgement in which those who go into “eternal life” will be separated from those who go on to “eternal damnation.” That is how He will render to each person according to what they have done. The judgment seat of God is the judgment seat of Christ for Christ is God.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

1 Tim. 3:7 “Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil”.’

“Them which are without” means those who are outside the church. In other words, if a man has a bad reputation on the outside-if he doesn’t pay his bills, is untrustworthy, or is a liar-he immediately is not a candidate to be an officer in the church. If he is such a man he is really a candidate of the Devil-he would better represent the Devill than he would represent the cause of Christ.

The verse that I quoted has nothing to do with the opinion of those who are without.

1 Timothy 3:6 (KJV)

6Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil

**6and not a new convert, so that he will not become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil **(NASB).

6He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. (NIV)

Here the man does not fall into reproach or the snare of the devil. He falls into the condemnation incurred by the devil. What is the condemnation incurred by the devil? Eternal damnation. What is the cause of falling into condemnation? His
becoming conceited after receiving a position of leadership.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

I

agree with you and the Bible, that all Christians are sinners. Someone made the erroneous remark that a Christian doesn’t sin, and I was responding to him. He was making the point that Jesus died on the cross so that we wouldn’t sin. But the Bible teaches that Jesus died for us because we are sinners. He died for our sins, past, present and future. Praise God for that!

A Christian can sin and also fall into condemnation for his/her sin. As a child of God, however, he can reconcile with God and receive forgiveness.

1 John 1:7-9

**7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. **

When we are justified, all of the sins that we have committed *in the past * are forgiven.

2 Peter 1:9

9But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. (KJV)

9But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. (NIV)

Once justified, we have access to God’s forgiveness on the basis of Christ’s work on the Cross, but the forgiveness of these future sins are applied after they have been committed, confessed, and forsaken.

God does not require perfect obedience for the rest of one’s Christian life in order to be saved. What he requires is perseverance, for only those who persevere to the end will be saved. Perseverance means not giving up. It means that when we sin, we turn to our Heavenly Father for forgiveness, reconciliation, and restoration. It means that we persevere in faith and godliness, not that we will live a perfectly sinless life every second of our lives.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Robert902]

Robert, the Bible never makes reference to two last judgements. There will only be one judgement at Our Lord’s second coming in which he shall render to everyone according to their works. Before his judgement seat, all will appear.

Romans 2:5-8

6Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath.

John 5:27-29

**27And hath given him authority to execute judgment **also, because he is the Son of man.
28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

There will be only one judgement when Jesus Christ comes and it is in that judgement in which those who go into “eternal life” will be separated from those who go on to “eternal damnation.” That is how He will render to each person according to what they have done. The judgment seat of God is the judgment seat of Christ for Christ is God.

God Bless,
Michael

MIchael,

Rev 22:12 “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to everyone according to his work.”
He will personally reward each believer individually, those in the church at the rapture, as well as those of Israel and the Gentiles at His return to set up His Kingdom at the Millenium.’’

Rev20:11 “Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.”

It is clear that there will be two judgements, one for those whose names have been written in the Book of Life, and another for those who are “dead”, or whose names have not been written in the Book of Life. They occur at two distinct periods. Rev 22:12 is the Bema judgement for God’s elect, and Rev 20:11 is the Great White Throne judgement for those who will be cast into the lake of fire.

God Bless,
Robert

 

[mikeledes]

Rev 22:12 “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to everyone according to his work.”
He will personally reward each believer individually, those in the church at the rapture, as well as those of Israel and the Gentiles at His return to set up His Kingdom at the Millenium.’’

This verse, Robert, is about the Last Judgement. This is reaffirmed in Matthew 16:27:

27For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Note the use of “every man,” not just Christians.

Rewarding someone according to their works does not necessarily mean they will be rewarded in a good way.

2 Timothy 4:14

14Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works:

2 Peter 2:13

13And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time.

At the general judgement, the righteous will inherit the kingdom of God and the unrighteous will be rewarded with eternal damnation. Jesus will judge everyone according to their works. It is interesting that in the Book of Revelation, there is only one judgement that is specifically mentioned and that is the Last Judgement. There is no mention of a “Bema” judgment.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

Robert, the Bible never makes reference to two last judgements. There will only be one judgement at Our Lord’s second coming in which he shall render to everyone according to their works. Before his judgement seat, all will appear.

Matthew 16:27

**27For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father **with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Matthew 25:31-46

31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Romans 2:5-8

6Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath.

John 5:27-29

**27And hath given him authority to execute judgment **also, because he is the Son of man.
28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

There will be only one judgement when Jesus Christ comes and it is in that judgement in which those who go into “eternal life” will be separated from those who go on to “eternal damnation.” That is how He will render to each person according to what they have done. The judgment seat of God is the judgment seat of Christ for Christ is God.

God Bless,
Michael

Robert, I ask you to carefully read these verses. Please note that there is one judgement in which everyone will be judged according to their works and what they recieve is eternal life (i.e. the kingdom of God) or eternal damnation (Romans 2:6-8, Matthew 25:46). In this judgment, all are involved (righteous and unrighteous). That is why matthew 25:31 states that all nations shall be gathered before Christ. There is no verse in the Bible that mentions anything about a “Bema” judgement.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Robert902]

Robert, I ask you to carefully read these verses. Please note that there is one judgement in which everyone will be judged according to their works and what they recieve is eternal life (i.e. the kingdom of God) or eternal damnation (Romans 2:6-8, Matthew 25:46). In this judgment, all are involved (righteous and unrighteous). That is why matthew 25:31 states that all nations shall be gathered before Christ. There is no verse in the Bible that mentions anything about a “Bema” judgement.

God Bless,
Michael

Michael,

2 Cor. 5:10 This is the judgement seat, literally, the bema. There is still a bema in Corinth. This is the place where the judges of the city would meet the citizens and would judge them for certain things; there was no question of life or death. This is where the unbelieving Jews accused Paul. At the judgement seat of Christ only believers will appear. It is not a judgement of the believers sins, which Christ fully atoned for on the cross. The judgement is to see if you are going to receive a reward or not. When Paul says, “We must all appear,” remember he is writing to believers only. All we believers will be judged, that we may receive the things done in the body. It’s important when reading scripture to consider to whom the author is addressing his message. All doesn’t always mean everyone.
This is not the Great White Throne Judgement of Rev. 20:11-15 where only the unsaved will stand. If you are a believer, your name is written in the Book of Life, and you have eternal life. However you and I will stand before the bema, the judgement seat of Christ, to be judged for rewards.
The Judgement Seat of Christ will take place at the rapture, and the Great White throne Judgement will take place after the millenium period. They couldn’t possibly both take place at the same time.
The word “BEMA” is often mentioned in place of the word “judgement”." “Bema” is simply the Greek word meaning “place of judgement.” When Jesus stood in Herod’s court in judgement, the Bible uses the same Greek word “bema.”
If you’re having a difficult time with the word “bema”, simply substitute the word judgement, or place of judgement.

God Bless,
Robert

 

[mikeledes]

Michael,

2 Cor. 5:10 This is the judgement seat, literally, the bema. There is still a bema in Corinth. This is the place where the judges of the city would meet the citizens and would judge them for certain things; there was no question of life or death. This is where the unbelieving Jews accused Paul. At the judgement seat of Christ only believers will appear. It is not a judgement of the believers sins, which Christ fully atoned for on the cross. The judgement is to see if you are going to receive a reward or not. When Paul says, “We must all appear,” remember he is writing to believers only. All we believers will be judged, that we may receive the things done in the body. It’s important when reading scripture to consider to whom the author is addressing his message. All doesn’t always mean everyone.
This is not the Great White Throne Judgement of Rev. 20:11-15 where only the unsaved will stand. If you are a believer, your name is written in the Book of Life, and you have eternal life. However you and I will stand before the bema, the judgement seat of Christ, to be judged for rewards.

And yet this contradicts Matthew 25, which describes the saved and the unsaved standing before Jesus Christ’s judgement seat to be judged according to their works.

Matthew 25:31-46

**31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. **

Revelation 20:11-15 does not say that only unbelivers are standing before the judgement seat.

Revelation 20:13 states:

13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds

We see this reaffirmed in Romans 2:6-8

** 6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation**.

And we see this played out in Matthew 25:34-46

34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal].(Compare this verse with Romans 2:6-8 again)

Jesus as Judge in action, judging everyone according to their works, as it states in Revelation 20:13. There is not a single verse that clearly distinguishes between a “Great White Throne” judgement for unbelievers and a “bema” judgement for believers. Matthew 25:31-46 clearly states that all people, righteous and unrighteous, shall appear before his throne for judgement at the same time. Revelation 20:11-15 never says that those being judged are exclusively unbelievers.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[jmcrae]

There are actually two judgements - the personal judgement that we will all receive at the time of death, and the Last Judgement, when all of the particular judgements will be made public.

Both are declarations of where we will spend eternity, however. While the question of rewards or punishments may be part of the judgement, the most important decision will be where you will spend eternity.

Those who did good (including following Christ and believing in Him to the best of their ability) will spend eternity in Heaven. Where in Heaven will depend on how good they were and what kinds of good deeds they did. Those who didn’t (especially those who consciously rejected Christ and His Church) will go to Hell. Where in Hell will depend on how bad they were, and what sort of bad deeds they did.

 

[DLC]

Lets take a look at what the Bible is saying.
Eph 2:4-10
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ ( by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
NASU

The* have been saved * in verse 5 is in the perfect tense which expresses the present permanent state as a result of a past action. Because believers have been made alive (v.5a) spiritually with Christ, they have been and are saved. They can never lose that which has been given to them through faith in Christ, their permanent salvation.
NASU

The perfect tense expresses permanence not a temporary state. Salvation is a done deal to those who by faith accept God’s free gift of eternal life. God’s purpose in our redemption is not simply to rescue us from hell. His ultimate purpose in our salvation is that for all eternity the church might glorify God’s grace (Eph 1:6, 12,14). So, if God has an eternal purpose for us all to fulfill, He will keep us (not us trying to keep ourselves saved through self effort) for all eternity. Since we have not been saved by our good works, we cannot be lost by our bad works. Grace means salvation completely apart from any merit or works on our part. Grace means that God does it all for Jesus’ sake! Our salvation is a gift of God(The word that in Eph 2:8, in the Greek, is neuter; while faith is feminine. Therefore that cannot refer to faith. It refers to the whole experience of salvation, including faith.) Salvation is a gift, not a reward.
Salvation cannot be “of works” because the work of salvation has already been completed on the cross. This is the work that God does for us, and it is a finished work (Jn 17:1-4; 19:30). We can add nothing to it (Heb 10:1-14); we dare take nothing from it. When Jesus died, the veil of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom, signifying that the way to God was now open. There is no more need for earthly sacrifices. One sacrifice - the Lamb of God - has finished the great work of salvation. God did it all, and He did by His grace.

Darrel

 

[mikeledes]

I posted these verses in another thread but they also apply to the topic of this thread.

Galatians 6:7-9

7Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.
8For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
9Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.

1 Timothy 6:18-19

18Instruct them to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share,
19storing up for themselves the treasure of a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of that which is life indeed.

John 5:28-29

28"Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Matthew 25:34-36, 46

**34"Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. **

WHY?

35’FOR I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in;
36naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’
46"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Romans 2:6-7

6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

John 8:51 (NASB)

51"Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death."

1 John 2:17 (NASB)

17The world is passing away, and also its lusts; but the one who does the will of God lives forever.

Revelation 2:26

26’He who overcomes, and he who keeps My deeds until the end, TO HIM I WILL GIVE AUTHORITY OVER THE NATIONS;

Revelation 2:10

…Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life

These verses are pretty clear on “salvation requirements”

God Bless,
Michael

DLC, I present to you these verses. Regarding salvation being a “permanent state”, i present the following:

Romans 11:20-22

20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

Hebrews 2:1-2

1For this reason we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away from it.
2For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty,
3how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation?

Please note the use of the word “we”, thus indicating that the inspired author includes himself.

1 Timothy 3:6

6and not a new convert, so that he will not become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil.

Note that the cause of his falling into the “condemnation incurred by the devil” is his becoming conceited after receiving a position of leadership. A “babe in Christ” lacks the spiritual maturity to hold such a position. If he never escaped condemnation, he cannot “fall into” it.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[jmcrae]

One sacrifice - the Lamb of God - has finished the great work of salvation. God did it all, and He did by His grace.

Are you saying then that everyone is saved - that Hell is now and will continue to remain empty? (Which is what would be required if Christ’s Sacrifice in fact did everything, including our part.)

It is a “work of man” to accept Christ into one’s heart - are you saying that accepting Christ is also unnecessary?

This seems unscriptural to me, since Christ goes on at length about the dangers of Hell in the Gospel according to Matthew - He seemed to be teaching that Hell was a real possibility for human beings. The Sermon on the Mount, found in chapters 5 through 7 of Matthew’s Gospel, seems especially instructive on this issue.

Or are there only certain works (those that are typically done by Catholics, for example) that are unnecessary?

 

[clmowry]

The force of the perfect indicative is simply that it describes an event that, completed in the past, has results existing in the present time (i.e., in relation to the time of the speaker).

The* have been saved *in verse 5 is in the perfect tense which expresses the present permanent state as a result of a past action. Because believers have been made alive (v.5a) spiritually with Christ, they have been and are saved. They can never lose that which has been given to them through faith in Christ, their permanent salvation.
NASU

The perfect tense expresses permanence not a temporary state.

 

[SyCarl]

Hi

You have a good start there

Now you need to add:

Communion with our Lord: John 6:53 - 66. Now notice here that he was not speaking figuratively, because “many of His disciples left Him” as they said “this is a hard teaching, who can accept it?” Did Jesus even try and say anything to persuade them this wasn’t meant literally? No. In fact the word used for “Eat” means literally to “gnaw” or “chew”. He meant it literally. Therefore we need the ''True Bread of Life" Christ present in the Eucharist.

It is not clear that Jesus was not speaking figuratively in these pasages or even that he was talking about the Eucharist since it had not yet been instituted so no one could have understood it in that sense. Not all of the Church Fathers understood it in that way either.

If the sentence is one of command, either forbidding a crime or vice, or enjoining an act of prudence or benevolence, it is not figurative. If, however, it seems to enjoin a crime or vice, or to forbid an act of prudence or benevolence, it is figurative. ‘Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man,’ says Christ, ‘and drink His blood, ye have no life in you.’ This seems to enjoin a crime or a vice; it is therefore a figure, enjoining that we should have a share in the sufferings of our Lord, and that we should retain a sweet and profitable memory of the fact that His flesh was wounded and crucified for us." - Augustine (On Christian Doctrine, 3:16:24
newadvent.org/fathers/12023.htm

“Elsewhere the Lord, in the Gospel according to John, brought this out by symbols, when He said: ‘Eat ye my flesh, and drink my blood,’ describing distinctly by metaphor the drinkable properties of faith and the promise, by means of which the Church, like a human being consisting of many members, is refreshed and grows, is welded together and compacted of both,–of faith, which is the body, and of hope, which is the soul; as also the Lord of flesh and blood. For in reality the blood of faith is hope, in which faith is held as by a vital principle.” - Clement of Alexandria (The Instructor, 1:6)
newadvent.org/fathers/02091.htm

There are other reasons for believing he was not talking of the Eucharist. Jesus says:

Jesus then said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who come to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.” (John 6:35)

But Jesus elsewhere said that he would give those who drank the water he would give would not thirst.

Jesus answered and said to her, “Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again; but whowever drinks of the water I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.” John 4:13-14

 

[mikeledes]

It is not clear that Jesus was not speaking figuratively in these pasages or even that he was talking about the Eucharist since it had not yet been instituted so no one could have understood it in that sense. Not all of the Church Fathers understood it in that way either.

There are other reasons for believing he was not talking of the Eucharist. Jesus says:

But Jesus elsewhere said that he would give those who drank the water he would give would not thirst.

I dealt with this objection in post # 257 in the following thread:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=40172&page=18&highlight=eucharist+john+6

I would go into this further, but this is beyond the purvue of this thread.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Robert902]

And yet this contradicts Matthew 25, which describes the saved and the unsaved standing before Jesus Christ’s judgement seat to be judged according to their works.

Matthew 25:31-46

31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Revelation 20:11-15 does not say that only unbelivers are standing before the judgement seat.

Revelation 20:13 states:

13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds

We see this reaffirmed in Romans 2:6-8

** 6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS**:
7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.

And we see this played out in Matthew 25:34-46

34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal].(Compare this verse with Romans 2:6-8 again)

Jesus as Judge in action, judging everyone according to their works, as it states in Revelation 20:13. There is not a single verse that clearly distinguishes between a “Great White Throne” judgement for unbelievers and a “bema” judgement for believers. Matthew 25:31-46 clearly states that all people, righteous and unrighteous, shall appear before his throne for judgement at the same time. Revelation 20:11-15 never says that those being judged are exclusively unbelievers.

God Bless,
Michael

Michael,

“Then shall He answer them, saying, verily I say unto you, inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to Me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment; but the righteous into life eternal.”

Entire nations will enter the millennial kingdom. Out of these will will be some who will reject Christ. But the judgement of the nations at the second coming of Christ is to determine what nations are to enter the millennial kingdom. This judgment is seperate and distinct from all other judgements.

God Bless,
Robert

 

[mikeledes]

Michael,

“Then shall He answer them, saying, verily I say unto you, inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to Me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment; but the righteous into life eternal.”

Entire nations will enter the millennial kingdom. Out of these will will be some who will reject Christ. But the judgement of the nations at the second coming of Christ is to determine what nations are to enter the millennial kingdom. This judgment is seperate and distinct from all other judgements.

God Bless,
Robert

I have a couple of questions. Who will participate in this 1000 year reign? All Christians or only those who are alive at His coming?

Secondly, according to Revelation 20:14, the damned are thrown into the eternal fire after they are judged. Let’s look at Matthew 25:41, 46

**41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: **
46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

In the judgment described in Matthew 25, the damned are not merely excluded from the millenial kingdom, but are cast into the eternal fire. But this, according to Revelation 20:14, occurs after the “Great White Throne” judgement. Therefore, the judgment in Revelation 20 and Matthew 25 refer to the same Last Judgement. This judgement occurs after the resurrection of the dead. This is supported by other Scripture passages:

Daniel 12:2

**2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. ** (Compare with Matthew 25:46).

John 5:27-29

**27And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. **

God Bless,
Michael