A
Angainor
Guest
I don’t understand. God does damn us for having concupiscence. I thought we went over this.
“Can’t possibly be in heaven” = “damned”, doesn’t it? Isn’t that what damned means?
- Status
R
RobNY
Guest
P1. All human beings have concupiscence.
P2. God damns all those who have concupiscence.
C1. Therefore God damns all human beings.
But, I reject the conclusion-- it’s plainly absurd. The only suspect premise is the second one, which means it is false.
I don’t think you have the reasoning here quite right. Compare the parallel reasoning: God damns us for being mortal. But that’s ridiculous as well. Mortals can’t be in heaven, but we aren’t damned (sent to hell) by virtue of being mortal. Likewise, beings with concupiscence can’t be in heaven, but we aren’t damned by virtue of having concupiscence. Unless you think we’re damned for being mortal? But if you do, refer to my syllogism above, and substitute, “mortal” for, “concupiscence.”
-Rob
J
jmcrae
Guest
It’s the concupiscence that can’t go to Heaven - not the person. Once the person gets rid of his concupiscience (his temptation to sin) then he can go to Heaven. Most people will do this in Purgatory, I think, although I have also noticed that the more I go to Confession, the less temptation I experience - so I suppose it could be possible to get rid of concupiscience in this life, as well.
A
Angainor
Guest
That sequence is technically correct, but let me rephrase.
P1. All human beings have concupiscence.
P2. Those who have concupiscence are damned as a matter of course.
C1. All human beings are damned.
We are told C1 is correct “…Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men…” Romans 5:18b
You have shown P2 to be correct in that it is unimaginable for a being with concupiscence to exist in heaven.
This is the state of affairs as it should be by rights, if God was only a just God, this would be the end of the story.
This is not the end of the story. God, in mercy, broke through and conquered death for us. It took the death and resurrection of his only Son to achieve this.
“You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” Romans 5:6-8
“…Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.” Romans 5:18b
About your second point about mortality. Is simply being mortal make something unqualified to exist in heaven? I don’t see why. Anyway, the analogy falls apart. Beings aren’t just mortal. They are mortal in conjunction with something else. Being mortal can’t exist on its own. Mortality is a consequence of sin. “The wages of sin is death”. Mortality exists along side sin. If there was no sin, the being wouldn’t be mortal and he wouldn’t be condemned.
R
RobNY
Guest
I think we’re saying two different things then. All human beings perhaps *deserve *to be damned, but in fact, not all human beings are damned. These are two different propositions.
I think the problem is that you’re trying to make correlation into causation. It is true that no being in heaven has concupiscence, but it doesn’t follow from this that concupiscence causes one to be disbarred from heaven.
I think sin in the proper sense, like what Paul says in Galatians 4 about works of the flesh, and those who do them not inheriting the kingdom of heaven, are what disbar us from heaven. In the sense that God judges us for what we have done. It doesn’t seem to me that concupisence is something we’ve, “done” but something we, “have.” If we come before God’s Judgment seat with unforgiven, “works of the flesh” we will be sent to hell, but to me concupiscence seems to be something of an entirely different order, and to speak of being forgiven or not of concupiscence seems to me to be a strange phrase.
I would say the same thing about concupiscence, we only have concupiscence in conjunction with our bodies, since concupiscence is the relation of the soul to the body.
As also is concupiscence.
If depends in what sense you mean sin. If there wasn’t original sin then there would be neither mortality nor concupiscence. But for those of us who are forgiven of sin we retain both.
I believe that it is impossible to eliminate concupisence in this life. It may be mortified, but not eliminated.
Alright, Angainor. God is abundant in giving me chances in learning humility.
Quite clearly my arguments aren’t terribly successful. At the risk of our, what I’ve perceived as, pleasant conversation stalling, if you find that this is not fruitful anymore, then I’d be interested in hearing what you think sin is, because I don’t understand your position where sin and free choice are not related. God bless.-Rob
A
Angainor
Guest
I know we seem to be going around and around… but how about one more? 
You did not object to that. It would be a highly unusual circumstance… but. What if a man was born in a coma, kept alive by doctors, and only woke up when he was 20 years old, only to pass away 2 seconds later. Let us further say (purely as a hypothetical) that Jesus never rose from the dead. Does he just go to heaven, concupiscence and all? If not than concupiscence, in itself, causes one to be disbarred from heaven.
I also have to wonder why this would matter so much. We will have bodies in heaven. It is only by grace through God’s redemptive plan that we will have bodies sans concupiscence.
Back in [post=2368088]post 198[/post]I said “I think you would agree that a man, even if he managed to somehow go through life without what you would call a transgression against the Law, but had concupiscence, would not be allowed entry into heaven as-is.”
You did not object to that. It would be a highly unusual circumstance… but. What if a man was born in a coma, kept alive by doctors, and only woke up when he was 20 years old, only to pass away 2 seconds later. Let us further say (purely as a hypothetical) that Jesus never rose from the dead. Does he just go to heaven, concupiscence and all? If not than concupiscence, in itself, causes one to be disbarred from heaven.
Are you saying one has to “do” something to sin? What do you “do” to break the first commandment. What about Matthew 5? “everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment” “everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.”
I’m skeptical about that notion. There are other sins other than bodily sins (the first three commandments).
I also have to wonder why this would matter so much. We will have bodies in heaven. It is only by grace through God’s redemptive plan that we will have bodies sans concupiscence.
A
Angainor
Guest
OK. What is sin. I have to go with Paul again.Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.”
Romans 7:7b
I know what sin is through the law.
I do not believe that people are not decreed to act in violation of the law. What I am not so sure about is if things like coveting and having other gods before Him are voluntary acts of the will. It seems someone could have a covetous heart and be in violation of the law.
Anyway, I wish you would let go of your fixation about sin and free choice. I know what you are getting at.
Do you remember the first sin? Well, at the new earth, this sin will be reconciled, too. People will no longer eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. We will simply fulfill the law through love, as we were meant to in the first place.
R
RobNY
Guest
Thank you for your answer, Angainor.
I think this section of the Catechism also interprets Paul’s words, and I’d like to put it in dialogue with your answer:
387 Only the light of divine Revelation clarifies the reality of sin and particularly of the sin committed at mankind’s origins. Without the knowledge Revelation gives of God we cannot recognize sin clearly and are tempted to explain it as merely a developmental flaw, a psychological weakness, a mistake, or the necessary consequence of an inadequate social structure, etc. Only in the knowledge of God’s plan for man can we grasp that sin is an abuse of the freedom that God gives to created persons so that they are capable of loving him and loving one another.
More food for thought:
The root of sin is in the heart of man, in his free will, according to the teaching of the Lord: “For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, fornication, theft, false witness, slander. These are what defile a man.” (Mt 15:19-20.) But in the heart also resides charity, the source of the good and pure works, which sin wounds. (CCC 1853)
Hrm?
-Rob
A
Angainor
Guest
I knew you were getting at this:Angainor:
Hrm?
RobNY said:
Sin as an “abuse of freedom” is not what is revealed by God’s word.Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
Romans 13:10
Love is the fulfilling of the law. Sin is the absence of love of neighbor and love of God.
CCC1853 is also not what is revealed in God’s word. It flatly contradicts the verse you chose to precede it. It flatly contradicts Genesis 6:6 “The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.” It flatly contradicts Paul in Romans 7:18. “For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out.”
The heart as the source of “good and pure works” also, by the way, contradicts [post=2356610]Thérèse[/post]. “All our just acts have blemishes in Thine eyes.”
R
RobNY
Guest
I don’t think the Catechism is defining sin when it says we see it is an abuse of freedom. It certainly involves an abuse of freedom, but the Catechism does have a definition of sin. Here it is:
**1849 **Sin is an offense against reason, truth, and right conscience; it is failure in genuine love for God and neighbor caused by a perverse attachment to certain goods. It wounds the nature of man and injures human solidarity. It has been defined as "an utterance, a deed, or a desire contrary to the eternal law."
Now, these seem very close, “Sin is the absence of love of neighbor and love of God,” and, “it is failure in genuine love for God and neighbor.”
The problem with taking these verses out of context is that they ignore the many righteous people throughout the Scriptures. In fact, right after Genesis 6:6 we learn that, “Noah found favor with the Lord,” he was a man who was, “a good man and blameless in that age.” “In the age,” i.e., coterminus with the statement of Gen 6:6.
There was also, “a blameless and upright man named Job, who feared God and avoided evil” (Job 1:1).
Luke says,
Remember that God,
Note earlier in Genesis, “At that time men began to invoke the LORD by name” (Gen 4:26). He created man to seek him, and there are men that do! As Acts introduces us to Cornelius. He was a centurion who was (Acts 10),
What message does the Lord send to Cornelius about this?
Clearly all these people did things pleasing to God. They were righteous and strove upwards to God. I have to disagree with your interpretation of those verses.
If one wants to make any two statements contradict, one will always have an easy time at it-- skeptics do so with the Bible continuously. But just as a note, the Catechism does not say that the, “heart” is the source of good and pure works, but that, “charity” is. Which is exactly what Romans 5 says, “the love of God has been poured out into our hearts.” It is that infused love (charity) that is the source of good and pure works.
-Rob
A
Angainor
Guest
Are those things written to be confusing? From this we learn that sin is:
a) an offense against reason, truth, and right conscience.
b) failure in genuine love for God and neighbor
c) “has been defined as” an utterance, a deed, or a desire contrary to the eternal law
d) caused by a perverse attachment to certain goods (!?)
Its a grab-bag. Pick your poison.
R
RobNY
Guest
b and d are connected.
It is a failure to love God and neighbor because of a perverse attachment to certain goods. Why don’t we love God and neighbor as we ought? Because we love other things as we ought not. It’s not simply that we fail to love God in a vacuum, it’s that we prefer created things (other goods) to the Creator and His law. That is to say, we are perversely attached to certain goods/ends.
As for a, that is true as well. Paul speaks of the Gentiles:
Hence it is that Gentiles have a, “natural law” inscribed into their hearts.
This shows, very broadly, how (a) is correct (I’d say refer to Thomas to understand it better-- it would take too long to explain it here).
As for d), that’s a definition by St. Augustine, which Thomas later agreed with. For Thomas, “the eternal law is nothing else than the type of Divine Wisdom, as directing all actions and movements” (ST II-I 93).
Now, just to connect everything, the natural law, which is implanted in man’s hearts, is nothing other than a participation in the Eternal Law (see Q. 91).
So saying that sin is contrary to the natural law, and contrary to the eternal law isn’t saying much different-- the natural law is but a participation of the eternal law.
The only thing left to do is connect the first two with these last two, and I think it’s safe to say that whenever we fail to love God and neighbor we are transgressing God’s law.
I think it’s all quite reasonable.
-Rob
M
myfavoritmartin
Guest
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned
Jhn 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Jhn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Jhn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Jhn 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
Jhn 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jhn 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
Jhn 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
Jhn 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Jhn 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die.
Jhn 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
Act 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:4 For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
1Pe 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
1Jo 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
Jhn 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Jhn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Jhn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Jhn 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
Jhn 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jhn 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
Jhn 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
Jhn 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Jhn 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die.
Jhn 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
Act 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:4 For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
1Pe 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
1Jo 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
G
guanophore
Guest
That is not ALL that is revealed about sin, but it is one of the things.
13 For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love be servants of one another. Gal 5:13
It is sinful to use ones freedom to sin against God, oneself, and others.
I don’t understand how you see that, mfm. I think what your teaching is contradicting here is that humans are made in the image and likeness of God. Both of the verses here represent hyperbole, as we know that not EVERY thought and intention was evil continuall, and we know that some good does dwell in man, though not in the flesh, but in the “very stamp of His nature” by which we are imaged.
The human heart, by itself is unable to produce pure works. However, a heart cleansed with baptism, and regenerated by the Spirit IS able to produce pure works.
1 Tim 1:4-5
the divine training that is in faith; 5 whereas the aim of our charge is love that issues from a pure heart and a good conscience and sincere faith."
Ezek 36:25-28
25 I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. 26 A new heart I will give you, and a new spirit I will put within you; and I will take out of your flesh the heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to observe my ordinances. "
Once we are cleansed, we are able to produce good works.
G
guanophore
Guest
I think picking is the problem. All of the truths need to be taken together as a whole, without excluding any part. That is why there is so much erroneous teaching floating about, because each one focuses on one particular aspect. In the fullness of truth, we need to take into account each thread, so that we can see the whole weaving.
A
Angainor
Guest
- Status