G
GaryTaylor
Guest
I’m aware, are you aware the verse used and elaborated on “all” of us are subjected to. Is that a Yes or No?
- Status
C
chimo
Guest
There are the same. If there is differences it is only in terminology. But the problem with terminology is that the other Church might not quite understand the other Church because of these different words. But in essence we are probably saying the same thing. I might see in your words and even interpret them differently than you just because I don’t use them or if I do use them it is very seldom. I believe salvation comes the same to everyone. Really it comes down to one simple conclusion. Have you acquired the Holy Spirit? There is no other salvation possible than the acquisition of the Holy Spirit and both the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church do say the same thing. This does not mean those outside the Church are not saved. On the contrary I am sure God has the availability of the Holy Spirit for them as well. Yet this availability is more pronounced and received when you attend Church. It makes more sense that you can see yourself receiving the Holy Spirit by the many opportunities given for you when you receive the Sacraments. In principal everything is the same in both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches meaning the end result is the same. The means to get to that same result may have differences as both Churches do possess different qualities that are reflected in their own personality makeup. Since both Churches have acquired if you can say different approaches then this different approach is reflective in their own personal growth. It is to my observations that the average Catholic grows up differently than the average Orthodox but both arrive to the same conclusions. If you really want to define their differences in approach it is this. The Catholic will grow up with a lot more discipline and theory thrown at them. The Orthodox will grow up more with a lot more nurturing and “on the job training”. Discipline is more pronounced in the West while nurturing is more pronounced in the East. Salvation can come either way!
G
GaryTaylor
Guest
Surely we are not contradicting God and the Apostle, who says, “Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned” (Rom. 5:12).
Silence? Really?
Silence? Really?
1
1Tim215Mommy
Guest
No, not my conclusion at all. You drew that conclusion in your post #50 in this Thread.
I have still yet to discover what the Catholic Church teaches about Salvation actually IS because you & the only other Catholic who have posted on this thread have changed your stories in every post or offer conflicting “Catholic” links.
Catholic Answers seems to void of any straight, consistent answers on Catholic teaching. Maybe I’m on the wrong cite. What cite should I go to find out what the actual Catholic teaching is about Salvation?
G
GaryTaylor
Guest
I’m on Romans 5:12 Yes or No.
C
ConstantineTG
Guest
I’ve already explained to you what the Orthodox understanding of Romans is, and a better explanation is given by the earlier link I gave which I am to assume right now that you did not bother to read. The thing is, this passage is originally written by Greek and its meaning is clear to the Church Fathers who spoke and read Greek. They understand the nuance of the original language that the verse is not a legalistic application of the term.
C
ConstantineTG
Guest
That’s pretty much Gary.
G
GaryTaylor
Guest
Can we get a simple answer to Romans 5:12?
C
ConstantineTG
Guest
The piety and devotion of Augustine is largely unquestioned by Orthodox theologians, but his conclusions on the Atonement are (Romanides, 2002). Augustine, by his own admission, did not properly learn to read Greek and this was a liability for him. He seems to have relied mostly on Latin translations of Greek texts (Augustine, 1956a, p. 9). His misinterpretation of a key scriptural reference, Romans 5:12, is a case in point (Meyendorff, 1979).
In Latin the Greek idiom eph ho which means *because of *was translated as in whom. Saying that all have sinned in Adam is quite different than saying that all sinned because of him. Augustine believed and taught that all humanity has sinned in Adam (Meyendorff, 1979, p. 144). The result is that guilt replaces death as the ancestral inheritance (Augustine, 1956b) Therefore the term original sin conveys the belief that Adam and Eve’s sin is the first and universal transgression in which all humanity participates.
preachersinstitute.com/2010/04/27/ancestral-sin-versus-original-sin-by-fr-anthony-hughes/
In Latin the Greek idiom eph ho which means *because of *was translated as in whom. Saying that all have sinned in Adam is quite different than saying that all sinned because of him. Augustine believed and taught that all humanity has sinned in Adam (Meyendorff, 1979, p. 144). The result is that guilt replaces death as the ancestral inheritance (Augustine, 1956b) Therefore the term original sin conveys the belief that Adam and Eve’s sin is the first and universal transgression in which all humanity participates.
preachersinstitute.com/2010/04/27/ancestral-sin-versus-original-sin-by-fr-anthony-hughes/
G
GaryTaylor
Guest
Your answer is no answer. And on a Bible verse? Wow.
What pre 1000 AD Church Father’s do you have a complete elaboration of Romans on? And no apparently it isn’t clear since you refuse to elaborate on it. Speak Greek if it helps you.
The first link with all the errors[we already been through this] and that’s not early church, its on what another thinks the Catholic Church thinks. Means very little to me I stopped reading at error 2.
C
ConstantineTG
Guest
So you accuse me of not offering proof and just giving errors, yet you yourself do not substantiate any of your claims of errors. You just say I’m in error, and that is just that?
G
GaryTaylor
Guest
Usual Augustine EO polemics.
G
GaryTaylor
Guest
There are errors in the link, both are polemical. How much more simple can I make it. What errors did I propose?
G
GaryTaylor
Guest
The fact is you want to discuss Gods essence, imagine that, and you can’t verbalize Romans 5:12 but by contributing polemical links.
1
1Tim215Mommy
Guest
“todo el mundo” is a common phrased used in Spanish which literally means “all the world”. It’s a common phrase used when lots of people are involved. Just as in the passage Romans 5:12 doesn’t truly mean “all” in the literal sense, but is an expression. Jesus was Man and He didn’t sin and infants are incapable of sin. We know that no one is born with guilt of the sin of another, yet anyone can be affected by another’s sin.
Let me give you a real life example that just happened. Tonight, my daughter friend was riding his bicycle and a man driving a truck had roadrage, per the witnesses, and the man ran Justin down destroying the bicycle and injuring Justin. The man is the one who sinned with his anger/rage but the man wasn’t the only person affected by his sin. The man is the one going to jail tonight & will stand trial before a judge, but Justin was also affected. Justin is in no way guilty of the man’s sin, but Justin’s injuries were caused by the man’s sins.
Adam & Eve are guilty & will stand before the Judge for their own sins, but the rest of humanity was affected as through their sin which brought into the world Genesis says
- pain/sickness Gen 3:16
- The ground was cursed with weeds/necessititating hard work to grow food Gen. 3:17-18
- diseases/physical death Gen. 3:22-24.
S
Schism_hater
Guest
Ah Gary. No one is contradicting God and the Apostle. The point is that the Orthodox don’t interpret that verse as meaning that sin is “transmitted” from Adam to the rest of mankind. And I genuinely believe the scholarly consensus is that the original Greek supports the Orthodox interpretation more than the Augustinian (Augustine, of course, was using a Latin translation).Surely we are not contradicting God and the Apostle, who says, “Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned” (Rom. 5:12).
Silence? Really?
If I read Constantine correctly as saying that in the Orthodox view “nothing” was transmitted, then I must respectfully disagree with him. I believe that mortality was.
G
GaryTaylor
Guest
Spanish? I thought we were on the subtle differences of Greek translation?
BTW the “point” was… “In Orthodoxy nothing is transmitted”
So would you say this is an incorrect statement?
1
1Tim215Mommy
Guest
who can know what the Catholic Church thinks on anything? We get completely opposite answers from the same person about the same topic and then were told the answers are neither right or wrong. What? Can anyone make any sense of this? It’s like “What color is the west wall?” “It’s a solid color?” “What color is it?” “It’s yellow and pink.” “But you just said it’s a solid color and now you say it’s yellow and pink.” Yes, it is." “Help me understand?” “It’s a solid color.” “What color is it?” “It’s yellow and pink.” “Which is correct - is it a solid color or yellow and pink?” “Neither answer is right or wrong, it’s just a difference of terminology.” “What?” :banghead:
Is there such a thing as a straight honest answer to a straight forward question?
Does any Catholic know whether or not the Catholic Church teaches Beatific Vision?
Was Pope Benadict XII who taught Beatific Vision (seeing/knowing) of the Divine Essence of God correct OR was Catholic St. Thomas Aquinas who you said taught the Divine Essence of God is unknowable? These are two complete opposite positions of Salvation. Which is accurately representing the Catholic teaching on Salvation?
1
1Tim215Mommy
Guest
Gary, I am very happy to see that you have expressed your Christian love and concern for Justin after hearing about what happened to him tonight. It either shows the quality of your character or the attention you gave to what I took the time to write to answer you.Spanish? I thought we were on the subtle differences of Greek translation?
BTW the “point” was… “In Orthodoxy nothing is transmitted”
So would you say this is an incorrect statement?
Besides the first sentence, did you even read what I posted?
G
GaryTaylor
Guest
Old news we all know we didn’t commit Adam and Eves transgression. But we are guilty be it a injustice in relation to there transgression, If you were not guilty you would not be part of the fall.
Death of the Soul, immortal death and death of the flesh were “transmitted” As to the Augustine aspect its irrelevant. The CCC was addressed on this.
If you disagree let me know where. So yes transmitted is correct. Or should we define this in application now?
- Status