Salvation Theology of Catholic and Orthodox Christians

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Old news we all know we didn’t commit Adam and Eves transgression. But we are guilty be it a injustice in relation to there transgression, If you were not guilty you would not be part of the fall.

Death of the Soul, immortal death and death of the flesh were “transmitted” As to the Augustine aspect its irrelevant. The CCC was addressed on this.

If you disagree let me know where. So yes transmitted is correct. Or should we define this in application now?
Do you really believe that you are personally guilty of someone else’s sin? If yes, on what basis do you believe this? And how can you hold that belief and, presumably, at the same time believe that God is just and loving - how do you get those reconcile?
 
Do you really believe that you are personally guilty of someone else’s sin? If yes, on what basis do you believe this? And how can you hold that belief and, presumably, at the same time believe that God is just and loving - how do you get those reconcile?
Of course not it has nothing to do with the conversation.

I’d be repeating myself its above. What part of that don’t you understand?
 
Of course not it has nothing to do with the conversation.

I’d be repeating myself its above. What part of that don’t you understand?
Yes, I now understand that for some reason you are unable to write anything that doesn’t directly contradict what you wrote before, even just moments before. Until I understood you’re not capable, it was difficult to understand why you’ve contradicted everything that you’ve written. Through your writings, we see there is no consistency within you, only confusion.

Now that I understand, I will pray for Peace for you. God’s Peace will make you feel better.

I may just be forced to figure out how to use the block feature to keep my sanity.

:blessyou:
 
Yes, I now understand
Yes, we all do.

The EO stance…

“NOTHING WAS TRANSMITTED IN ORTHODOXY”

Very “mystical” as suggested. But I guess we need to know the subtle difference of Greek which which was given in Spanish and bad English.

Mystical it is…“Nothing was transmitted in Orthodoxy.” "Just as in the passage Romans 5:12 “doesn’t truly mean “all” in the literal sense, but is an expression.”

Its means “all” but in the mystical EO? :extrahappy:

You guys are funny, come back when you are no longer mad. choose to be charitable, and the threats? Come, Come now, sticks and stones. you found every other button you thought you could push, you’ll manage to find that one also. 😉

The Augustine polemics: “Do you really believe that you are personally guilty of someone else’s sin?”

Answer is, do you really have an answer to Romans? And that is …“Nothing was transmitted in Orthodoxy.”🤷

Your having a different conversation with yourself. The fall didn’t apply to you, nothing was transmitted. Thus “salvation” is of no consequence here.

When you want to have a real conversation about Salvation come back leave the polemical links, elsewhere.

Wait, wait here it is…

“todo el mundo” is a common phrased used in Spanish which literally means “all the world”. It’s a common phrase used when lots of people are involved. Just as in the passage Romans 5:12 doesn’t truly mean “all” in the literal sense, but is an expression.

That would mean “literally” all but the EO and Jesus according to you?

Then its stated; “Mary & Jesus, along with all the human race, were subject every one of these affects of the original sin,”

Very good so subjection isn’t transmission, subjected to the fall, the consequence of the fall “was” transmitted to man. Watch now though…

But you said, “nothing was transmitted in Orthodoxy” we were “subject” to the fall which wasn’t transmitted to “all” mankind, But here’s your words; “Mary & Jesus, along with all the human race, were subject every one of these affects of the original sin, but none are guilty besides Adam and Eve”

So the consequence of the fall now has “Jesus” subjected to every affect of original sin. :nope: Only in the EO. 👍
 
1Tim215Mommy I hope at some point you realize these are your words above and certainly not the EO. We all know the EO doesn’t believe Jesus was a sinner. 😛

I missed the part about the accident last night for some reason I was thinking analogy not reality. So my apology and my prayers are with you. But isn’t this the same we’re doing with Augustine, judging him on what we think, he thought at a specific point?

Just Saying, Jesus is not a sinner and I am sure that’s not your final thought. 😉

Here’s your “last” infallible response? “Mary & Jesus, along with all the human race, were subject to every one of these affects of the original sin,” :eek:

Final answer? 🍿
 
It seems the Orthodox and Church Fathers of the East were a little more lenient on Original Sin than the Latin Fathers. Why this is so puzzles me. It seems two different thoughts had emerged on the judgment of our first two parents. Again it is still a puzzlement why this difference in judgment occurred. If the Eastern Fathers see differently what sin can do to a person and what original sin is to the whole Church you would think the Church of Rome would have known these thoughts of the Fathers of the Eastern Church. Perhaps what happened was there was hardly any exposure to the Eastern understanding towards Original sin in the West so that hardly any references towards this understanding would not have impacted the West at all. The East though knows of Augustine’s theory on original sin today and has refuted it because of their own theory. Remember that we are talking about theories here and not absolute truths. It does not matter really what East and West theorizes on Original sin.

The only real importance is what we do with the condition of sin we have now. Here we know to take it to Jesus Christ. Instead of going backwards let us go forward into the realm what our Lord Jesus can do with sin and let Original sin stay on the bottom of priorities. It is really never on my mind when I witness for Jesus Christ. I never talk about it. Yet we always find ways to bring it up. Let us remember more the saving actions of our Lord and bury this issue on Original sin for it brings no real edification.

If I can bring up a Church Father that can speak eloquently on this issue I will like to quote my favorite Church Father, St. John Chrysostom. I am sure St. Augustine would have approved of John’s words if he knew about them.

“Are we all sinners because of the sin of Adam? Does the stain of sin pass from one generation to another? Does every man, woman, and child on this earth stand condemned by God unless they hear and believe in Jesus Christ? To most people this sounds utterly unreasonable and unjust; and indeed it is. To anyone who believes that God loves his creation, and especially loves humanity, it is inconceivable that he should condemn people through no fault of their own. The very idea that an innocent child deserves eternal punishment is monstrous. Yet it is utterly reasonable that we are made good through the goodness of Christ. Although the sin of one person cannot condemn humanity, the radiant love of one man can transform humanity–and is doing so. God waits for our hearts to open to his grace; he waits for an opportunity to reveal to each of us his truth. Then, when we are ready, he ensures that we hear about Christ and about his Gospel; and we find ourselves faced with a choice, which will affect the entire course of life and death–whether to embrace the words of Jesus Christ or to reject them. If we deliberately reject the Gospel, even when we fully understand it, then we condemn ourselves; if we embrace it, we shall ourselves be embraced by God in heaven.”
 
“todo el mundo” is a common phrased used in Spanish which literally means “all the world”. It’s a common phrase used when lots of people are involved. Just as in the passage Romans 5:12 doesn’t truly mean “all” in the literal sense, but is an expression. **Jesus was Man and He didn’t sin and infants are incapable of sin. We know that no one is born with guilt of the sin of another, yet anyone can be affected by another’s sin. **

Let me give you a real life example that just happened. Tonight, my daughter friend was riding his bicycle and a man driving a truck had roadrage, per the witnesses, and the man ran Justin down destroying the bicycle and injuring Justin. The man is the one who sinned with his anger/rage but the man wasn’t the only person affected by his sin. The man is the one going to jail tonight & will stand trial before a judge, but Justin was also affected. Justin is in no way guilty of the man’s sin, but Justin’s injuries were caused by the man’s sins.

Adam & Eve are guilty & will stand before the Judge for their own sins, but **the rest of humanity was affected as through their sin which brought into the world Genesis says
  1. pain/sickness Gen 3:16
  2. The ground was cursed with weeds/necessititating hard work to grow food Gen. 3:17-18
  3. diseases/physical death Gen. 3:22-24. **
Mary & Jesus, along with all the human race, were subject every one of these affects of the original sin, but none are guilty besides Adam and Eve of their first sin. Mary & Jesus were capable of personal sin, but uniquely chose not to. That we can expect from Jesus/God, but that is what makes Mary so extraordinarily amazingly & worthy of praise!
Anyone who says that Jesus and Mary were not affected (subject to pain and death per Genesis) by consequences of the sin of Adam & Eve would then have to be consistent with that line of thinking and deny that Jesus died. Without His death, a direct consequence of ancestrial/original sin, there would be no resurrection & that would make Christianity a false religion. Let’s set that foolishness aside and agree that absolutely Jesus and Mary experienced the consequences of the Fall.

Every human born, including Adam, Eve, Mary & Jesus, are affected by the consequences of ancestrial sin which are recorded in Genesis 3 as pain, sickness, death BUT the only people who are guilty of sin are those who choose to sin.

Jesus did not sin and therefore remained an exception to the “all” in Romans.
Mary could have sinned, but chose not to & she is an excpetion to “all” in Romans by her own choice she is Immaculate or Panagia/AllHoly.
Pre-born babies, infants and severely mentally retarded are not capable of sinning and they, too, are an exception to “all” in Romans.
 
It seems the Orthodox and Church Fathers of the East were a little more lenient on Original Sin than the Latin Fathers. Why this is so puzzles me. It seems two different thoughts had emerged on the judgment of our first two parents. Again it is still a puzzlement why this difference in judgment occurred. If the Eastern Fathers see differently what sin can do to a person and what original sin is to the whole Church you would think the Church of Rome would have known these thoughts of the Fathers of the Eastern Church. Perhaps what happened was there was hardly any exposure to the Eastern understanding towards Original sin in the West so that hardly any references towards this understanding would not have impacted the West at all. The East though knows of Augustine’s theory on original sin today and has refuted it because of their own theory. Remember that we are talking about theories here and not absolute truths. It does not matter really what East and West theorizes on Original sin.

The only real importance is what we do with the condition of sin we have now. Here we know to take it to Jesus Christ. Instead of going backwards let us go forward into the realm what our Lord Jesus can do with sin and let Original sin stay on the bottom of priorities. It is really never on my mind when I witness for Jesus Christ. I never talk about it. Yet we always find ways to bring it up. Let us remember more the saving actions of our Lord and bury this issue on Original sin for it brings no real edification.

If I can bring up a Church Father that can speak eloquently on this issue I will like to quote my favorite Church Father, St. John Chrysostom. I am sure St. Augustine would have approved of John’s words if he knew about them.

“Are we all sinners because of the sin of Adam? Does the stain of sin pass from one generation to another? Does every man, woman, and child on this earth stand condemned by God unless they hear and believe in Jesus Christ? To most people this sounds utterly unreasonable and unjust; and indeed it is. To anyone who believes that God loves his creation, and especially loves humanity, it is inconceivable that he should condemn people through no fault of their own. The very idea that an innocent child deserves eternal punishment is monstrous. Yet it is utterly reasonable that we are made good through the goodness of Christ. Although the sin of one person cannot condemn humanity, the radiant love of one man can transform humanity–and is doing so. God waits for our hearts to open to his grace; he waits for an opportunity to reveal to each of us his truth. Then, when we are ready, he ensures that we hear about Christ and about his Gospel; and we find ourselves faced with a choice, which will affect the entire course of life and death–whether to embrace the words of Jesus Christ or to reject them. If we deliberately reject the Gospel, even when we fully understand it, then we condemn ourselves; if we embrace it, we shall ourselves be embraced by God in heaven.”
Absolutely beautiful.

And you see the contrasting thinking between Augustine and John. Augustine agrees that the unbaptized inherit death, reasoning follows St Cyprian, and the Sacrament of Baptism which we all agree on since the issue becomes Baptism. Not guilt, but the refusal of Gods Love by the transgression of Adam and Eve which Augustine called pride and correctly. And who can tell what God may do in His love and mercy is correct. But it does not follow that the Sacrament of Baptism isn’t Salvation itself through the super natural imposed virtue of Grace by God, which we are required to cooperate with and have a responsibility to maintain, for then it also follows those who refuse Baptism and who refuse God in cooperation with “knowledge” of Christs redemption and who in a word chose the world knowingly, Are judged by the spiritual law, and according to the Apostle’s understanding?
 
Anyone who says that Jesus and Mary were not affected (subject to pain and death per Genesis) by consequences of the sin of Adam & Eve would then have to be consistent with that line of thinking and deny that Jesus died. Without His death, a direct consequence of ancestrial/original sin, there would be no resurrection & that would make Christianity a false religion. Let’s set that foolishness aside and agree that absolutely Jesus and Mary experienced the consequences of the Fall.

Every human born, including Adam, Eve, Mary & Jesus, are affected by the consequences of ancestrial sin which are recorded in Genesis 3 as pain, sickness, death BUT the only people who are guilty of sin are those who choose to sin.

Jesus did not sin and therefore remained an exception to the “all” in Romans.
Mary could have sinned, but chose not to & she is an excpetion to “all” in Romans by her own choice she is Immaculate or Panagia/AllHoly.
Pre-born babies, infants and severely mentally retarded are not capable of sinning and they, too, are an exception to “all” in Romans.
Alright lets think about this. God the almighty. perfection Himself from whom all creation comes? It is impossible He the only begotten Son who in fact is God, well, sin had No Access.
 
Did Jesus and Mary not suffer bodily weariness? Pain?

Whether they could not have/did not sin does not change the fact that they are humans (Jesus being both God and human) born after the sin of Adam and Eve. They are/were not ever slaves to sin like the rest of us but still shared in the consequence of the original sin.

Am I on the right track?
 
Did Jesus and Mary not suffer bodily weariness? Pain?

Whether they could not have/did not sin does not change the fact that they are humans (Jesus being both God and human) born after the sin of Adam and Eve. They are/were not ever slaves to sin like the rest of us but still shared in the consequence of the original sin.

Am I on the right track?
Yes absolutely, and yes absolutely Jesus Christ in love redeemed man by taking on a fully human/fully Divine nature. And He nailed death to the Cross with it as an everlasting reminder til His return, to be reminded of what He did in Love, and thought about the temptation of the world, and from day one and in correct love where as Adam and Eve sought the world through pride. Its corrective Love by God.
 
Did Jesus and Mary not suffer bodily weariness? Pain?

Whether they could not have/did not sin does not change the fact that they are humans (Jesus being both God and human) born after the sin of Adam and Eve. They are/were not ever slaves to sin like the rest of us but still shared in the consequence of the original sin.

Am I on the right track?
The further thinking is the Divinity of God opposed to sin. Sin is polar opposite of God. So in relation to the two? There is none.

Concerning Christ’s nature and personhood, the Council rejected Dioscorus’ position, and proclaimed that:
…while Christ is a single, undivided person, He is not only from two natures but in two natures. The bishops acclaimed the Tome of St. Leo the Great, Pope of Rome (died 461), in which the distinction between the two natures is clearly stated, although the unity of Christ’s person is also emphasized. In their proclamation of faith they stated their belief in 'one and the same son, perfect in Godhead and perfect in humanity, truly God and truly human… acknowledged in two natures unconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, inseparably; the difference between the natures is in no way removed because of the union, but rather the peculiar property of each nature is preserved, and both combine in one person and in one hypostasis. Wiki-pedia

So you talking a human/divine nature which we do not separate and Sin being polar opposite of God thus it has no-access. So if Jesus could have this sequence of thought really can’t be assigned to the Perfect God. Other aspects of a human nature yes, sin, no.
 
Whether they could not have/did not sin does not change the fact that they are humans (Jesus being both God and human) born after the sin of Adam and Eve. They are/were not ever slaves to sin like the rest of us but still shared in the consequence of the original sin.
Yes
 
I am delighted to finally see some references on the putative teachings of the EOC on original sin. forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=10879689&postcount=322

Romanides and his followers represent a stream of though that does exist in the EOC. However I had posted - in other threads - links to writings of Orthodox clergy, including catechisms of the Orthodox church, that parallel CC teachings to near identity.
Here is one that I repost because it also directly contradicts the specious idea of Westerners mistranslating the Greek. forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=10843166&postcount=4

Here is an illuminating read by an Orthodox writer. I don’t agree with all of it, or his other writings, but it is worth the read. (And btw there are plenty of Orthodox writings on line that correct Romanides wrong attacks on Augustine.) orthodoxchristianbooks.com/articles/278/metropolitan-ephraim-original-sin/

He destroys the idea - apart from semantics - that there was no consideration of the transmission of the “sin” of Adam in the early Patristic writings - or that the consequences of the fall were limited to death and disease. Instead, like the CC, the traditional Orthodoxy, in contrast to this “revolution in theology” of Romanides, is clear about the ontological deficit incurred by the descendents of Adam - what the RCC would call the loss of sanctifying grace or the stain of original sin. This deficit is changed through Baptism - notwithstanding the fact that other consequences of the sin remain. (This sense is also reflected in discussions in the East of infant Baptism, and led St. Gregory of Nyssa to first consider what in the West bacame known as “Limbo”.)

The article goes off the track in the discussion of the IC, For some reason there is an odd blind spot to what is meant by the idea of stain of original sin. This passage from the Catholic Encyclopedia - written at about the same time as the promulgation of the IC - states the idea clearly.
We may add an argument based on the principle of St. Augustine already cited, “the deliberate sin of the first man is the cause of original sin”. This principle is developed by St. Anselm: “the sin of Adam was one thing but the sin of children at their birth is quite another, the former was the cause, the latter is the effect” (De conceptu virginali, xxvi). In a child original sin is distinct from the fault of Adam, it is one of its effects. But which of these effects is it? We shall examine the several effects of Adam’s fault and reject those which cannot be original sin:
(1) Death and Suffering.- These are purely physical evils and cannot be called sin. Moreover St. Paul, and after him the councils, regarded death and original sin as two distinct things transmitted by Adam.
(2) Concupiscence.- This rebellion of the lower appetite transmitted to us by Adam is an occasion of sin and in that sense comes nearer to moral evil. However, the occasion of a fault is not necessarily a fault, and whilst original sin is effaced by baptism concupiscence still remains in the person baptized; therefore original sin and concupiscence cannot be one and the same thing, as was held by the early Protestants (see Council of Trent, Sess. V, can. v).
(3) The absence of sanctifying grace in the new-born child is also an effect of the first sin, for Adam, having received holiness and justice from God, lost it not only for himself but also for us (loc. cit., can. ii). If he has lost it for us we were to have received it from him at our birth with the other prerogatives of our race. Therefore the absence of sanctifying grace in a child is a real privation, it is the want of something that should have been in him according to the Divine plan. If this favour is not merely something physical but is something in the moral order, if it is holiness, its privation may be called a sin. But sanctifying grace is holiness and is so called by the Council of Trent, because holiness consists in union with God, and grace unites us intimately with God. Moral goodness consists in this, that our action is according to the moral law, but grace is a deification, as the Fathers say, a perfect conformity with God who is the first rule of all morality. (See GRACE.) Sanctifying grace therefore enters into the moral order, not as an act that passes but as a permanent tendency which exists even when the subject who possesses it does not act; it is a turning towards God, conversio ad Deum. Consequently the privation of this grace, even without any other act, would be a stain, a moral deformity, a turning away from God, aversio a Deo, and this character is not found in any other effect of the fault of Adam. This privation, therefore, is the hereditary stain.]
With this correction, the only issue is whether this singular re-orientation and infusion of grace occurred at conception, or later in the life of the Theotokos. Annunciation is really too late to be taken seriously, in light, for example of the Orthodoxy hymnography at the Entrance. But this strikes me as something of a detail. I look back with gratitude for the definition of the IC, which had the effect - after centuries of odd science mixing with theology - of making the clarifying the point the creation of a creature with a soul, LIfe begins at conception. I think it helped us in the CC be steadfast against the great moral failure of our time.
 
Beatific Vision and Theosis

What are the similarities? and What are the differences?
The only place where there is a difference revolves around the nature of hell, and that difference is not a contradiction but rather that the Orthodox definition is much more detailed. They believe that hellfire is the love of God, and that the love of God torments those who hate God. They believe it is not retribution but rather the experience the unsaved have from God’s love. We simply believe that hell is the torment the unsaved experience after death and that it is the experience of those outside the communion of saints.
 
I am delighted to finally see some references on the putative teachings of the EOC on original sin. forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=10879689&postcount=322

Romanides and his followers represent a stream of though that does exist in the EOC. However I had posted - in other threads - links to writings of Orthodox clergy, including catechisms of the Orthodox church, that parallel CC teachings to near identity.
Here is one that I repost because it also directly contradicts the specious idea of Westerners mistranslating the Greek. forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=10843166&postcount=4

Here is an illuminating read by an Orthodox writer. I don’t agree with all of it, or his other writings, but it is worth the read. (And btw there are plenty of Orthodox writings on line that correct Romanides wrong attacks on Augustine.) orthodoxchristianbooks.com/articles/278/metropolitan-ephraim-original-sin/

He destroys the idea - apart from semantics - that there was no consideration of the transmission of the “sin” of Adam in the early Patristic writings - or that the consequences of the fall were limited to death and disease. Instead, like the CC, the traditional Orthodoxy, in contrast to this “revolution in theology” of Romanides, is clear about the ontological deficit incurred by the descendents of Adam - what the RCC would call the loss of sanctifying grace or the stain of original sin. This deficit is changed through Baptism - notwithstanding the fact that other consequences of the sin remain. (This sense is also reflected in discussions in the East of infant Baptism, and led St. Gregory of Nyssa to first consider what in the West bacame known as “Limbo”.)

The article goes off the track in the discussion of the IC, For some reason there is an odd blind spot to what is meant by the idea of stain of original sin. This passage from the Catholic Encyclopedia - written at about the same time as the promulgation of the IC - states the idea clearly.

With this correction, the only issue is whether this singular re-orientation and infusion of grace occurred at conception, or later in the life of the Theotokos. Annunciation is really too late to be taken seriously, in light, for example of the Orthodoxy hymnography at the Entrance. But this strikes me as something of a detail. I look back with gratitude for the definition of the IC, which had the effect - after centuries of odd science mixing with theology - of making the clarifying the point the creation of a creature with a soul, LIfe begins at conception. I think it helped us in the CC be steadfast against the great moral failure of our time.
Don’t forget that Orthodoxy itself was Latinized by Peter the Great. He brought in Western Scholasticism to Russia and into Orthodoxy back when Orthodoxy was essentially Russian Orthodoxy. With Constantinople still under the Turkish Yoke and virtually had no seminaries, Orthodox studies became heavily influenced by the West, including the use of Latin as a scholastic language (used in school and studies, but not in Liturgy). This is why you have the remnants today of these things, such as numbering Sacraments as 7, and using concepts such as Transubstantiation and Original Sin. But this has been proven to be unPatristic and incompatible to Orthodox theology prior to Western Scholasticism. It is slowly being undone thankfully.
 
The only place where there is a difference revolves around the nature of hell, and that difference is not a contradiction but rather that the Orthodox definition is much more detailed. They believe that hellfire is the love of God, and that the love of God torments those who hate God. They believe it is not retribution but rather the experience the unsaved have from God’s love. We simply believe that hell is the torment the unsaved experience after death and that it is the experience of those outside the communion of saints.
There is no firm teaching on Orthodoxy on what hell really is. What you explained is the current most popular explanation, but not a dogmatic one.

Beatific Vision and Theosis are two different things. Beatific Vision is one beholding God, seeing His face. That person sees God but is not deified by this experience. Theosis isn’t about knowledge and vision, but about experience. We cannot fully know God’s essence but only through His energies, and Theosis is a growin participation in God’s energies where we become deified. This is an eternal process, never ending. We forever approach the unapproachable light, but it is not just as if we are staying in place, there is continued growth in experience. We become more and more like God, but we never become totally equal to God because God is infinite and so there is no finish line to this journey.
 
It seems two different thoughts had emerged on the judgment of our first two parents.
The problem again is that the Latins believe in a legalist understanding of sin, that Adam committed an offense, and if we are to live in the effects of this offense, then we have to have some sort of offense we carry ourselves. In Orthodoxy, that is not the understanding. A great explanation to this was given by Fr. Thomas Hopko on a podcast on AFR where he used the Prodigal Son as a metaphor for the fall. The Prodigal Son is Adam, and the first sin was when he left the father’s house. Where did the Prodigal Son end up living? In the pigpen. That is the effect of his sin (leaving the father’s house). Now, supposed the son didn’t get up and return to the father, as the story went. Supposed he had children with the harlots he paid for in the story. Where are these children born? Are they magically transported into the father’s house just because they didn’t inherit anything from the son, that is his sin of leaving the father’s house? No. But we, being Adam’s children, are born inside the pig pen where he is after committing his sin.

So do we need to inherit anything just to satisfy Romans 5:12? No. It is foolish to keep on insisting that we have to.
 
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