Salvation though faith alone-or through faith AND deeds?

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I had a disagreement with a fellow Christian who said salvation can be achieved through faith alone, and deeds have nothing to with it. I though ‘faith without deeds is dead’- meaning part of the way to celebrate Jesus is to show that love through action, by being Christ like and helping people. What about the person with faith who has no interest in helping others- What does the Bible say about this? If someone believes in Jesus just as a way to use Jesus to get into heaven, isn’t that a sin? What about the sinner with faith, and the charitable person without faith? Are they both saved?
 
It depends on which Protestants you ask honestly. All of them seem to have slightly different ideas on what sola fide means exactly. Some of them do seem to have an idea that it doesn’t matter if you killed somebody, if you had ‘trusted in Jesus’ before then you get a non revocable one way ticket to heaven. Others (like the Church I currently go to) seem faith and works as more connected, and works as sort of a natural outgrowth of true faith. That’s one reason I don’t like the term sola fide much. It’s too… catch phrasey.
 
The greater your Faith is and trust in Jesus Christ is, the greater your deeds will be. Jesus calls us to be perfect and yet none of us are because we don’t have that much Faith. I believe with all my heart in Jesus Christ and yet I refuse to give up all I have and follow Him. Why? Because I am lacking in perfect Faith.

The Disciples left everything behind and lacked nothing, because they had that much Faith. I pray that our Faith will increase and in turn will increase our works.
 
Neither. We are saved by grace.

The Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification by the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church demonstrates that both churches now share “a common understanding of our justification by God’s grace through faith in Christ.”

The faith we have is a grace from God and so are all the works that stem from it. As it is written: “By grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God.”–Ephesians 2:8.

And as a Roman Catholic that is what I wholeheartedly believe.
 
I had a disagreement with a fellow Christian who said salvation can be achieved through faith alone, and deeds have nothing to with it.
This issue stems from a false separation between faith and works. It is not supported in Scripture.
I though ‘faith without deeds is dead’- meaning part of the way to celebrate Jesus is to show that love through action, by being Christ like and helping people.
Yes - the passage you refer to above is:
James 2:14-18
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. 18 But some one will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith.

We can easily add to that Mt 25:31-46 which is the great description of the final judgement. Ask your friend where he sees “faith alone” being used as the separator.
What about the person with faith who has no interest in helping others- What does the Bible say about this?
“Not all who cry ‘Lord Lord’ will enter the kingdom, but only he who does the will of the Father who is in heaven” (Mt 7:21)

And St James says that such a person has a “dead faith” - and a dead faith cannot save.
If someone believes in Jesus just as a way to use Jesus to get into heaven, isn’t that a sin?
It is a false faith
What about the sinner with faith, and the charitable person without faith? Are they both saved?
We are all sinners. So the “sinner with faith” can certainly be saved…provided they are doing the best that they can and look to the mercy of God.
As for the charitable person without faith…that is a more tricky issue. The question would be why does the person not have faith in Jesus? Numerous hypotheticals could be proposed and probably permutations of each of those…ultimately such people must be left to God to deal with.

Peace
James
 
We are saved by grace alone, through faith. But not just any faith, a living faith that produces good works (justification). The good works are necessary as a testament to the living faith. They cannot be separated. A faith without works is dead, which can prevent you from receiving saving grace.
 
We are saved by grace alone, through faith. But not just any faith, a living faith that produces good works (justification). The good works are necessary as a testament to the living faith. They cannot be separated. A faith without works is dead, which can prevent you from receiving saving grace.
This sounds quite Lutheran , and Catholic. 👍
Faith must of course be sincere. It must be a faith that performs good works through love. If faith lacks love it is not true faith. Thus the Apostle bars the way of hypocrites to the kingdom of Christ on all sides. He declares on the one hand, “In Christ Jesus circumcision availeth nothing,” i.e., works avail nothing, but faith alone, and that without any merit whatever, avails before God. On the other hand, the Apostle declares that without fruits faith serves no purpose. To think, “If faith justifies without works, let us work nothing,” is to despise the grace of God. Idle faith is not justifying faith. In this terse manner Paul presents the whole life of a Christian. Inwardly it consists in faith towards God, outwardly in love towards our fellow-men.
. - Luther

Jon
 
This issue stems from a false separation between faith and works. It is not supported in Scripture.

Yes - the passage you refer to above is:
James 2:14-18
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. 18 But some one will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith.

We can easily add to that Mt 25:31-46 which is the great description of the final judgement. Ask your friend where he sees “faith alone” being used as the separator.

“Not all who cry ‘Lord Lord’ will enter the kingdom, but only he who does the will of the Father who is in heaven” (Mt 7:21)

And St James says that such a person has a “dead faith” - and a dead faith cannot save.

It is a false faith

We are all sinners. So the “sinner with faith” can certainly be saved…provided they are doing the best that they can and look to the mercy of God.
As for the charitable person without faith…that is a more tricky issue. The question would be why does the person not have faith in Jesus? Numerous hypotheticals could be proposed and probably permutations of each of those…ultimately such people must be left to God to deal with.

Peace
James
Thank you for the very detailed response you make great points
 
We are saved by grace alone, through faith. But not just any faith, a living faith that produces good works (justification). The good works are necessary as a testament to the living faith. They cannot be separated. A faith without works is dead, which can prevent you from receiving saving grace.
Great points- I see faith akin to love,in that it must be supported by action. if you say you love someone, but never back it with action, is it really love? If a person says they have faith in Jesus but never back it with action, is it really faith?
 
Great points- I see faith akin to love,in that it must be supported by action. if you say you love someone, but never back it with action, is it really love? If a person says they have faith in Jesus but never back it with action, is it really faith?
Before Abraham did any WORKS he was seen as righteous before God. The author of James supports faith alone.

James 2:23
and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God.

There was nothing Abraham could have done if he had no faith.
Before Abraham did what you would considered ‘works’, he was already seen as righteous before God!
As the scriptures say

Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

What does Jesus Christ say about this?

John 6:28-29
*Then they said to him, *“What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” **
29 Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”


It doesn’t get any clearer than this.
If your faith is genuine, it is God who works in you.

No one on judgment day will say 'look at all of the good works that I did!’

1 Peter 5:5
  • “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.”*
Luke 18:14
For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”

It is Christ who works in us. For it is Christ alone who renews us, who are dead in trespasses and sin.
We cannot and as a result do not take credit for any good work as it is Christ’s doing in us.

Philippians 2:12
Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling,
13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.


Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

**
Summary:**
-Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. (Romans 10)
-Faith is a gift from God (Eph 2:8-9)
-It is because of faith alone in Christ alone that it was counted to him (Abraham and all who believe in Christ) as righteousness (James 2:23)
-It is because of faith that Abraham obeyed
-The work of God is this: To believe in Jesus Christ whom the Father has sent (John 6:29)

Thus, everything hinges on faith. Not just any faith, but Faith alone in Christ alone.
To take credit for something that you don’t even deserve is a slap in God’s face.
**
John 3:18**
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

We are saved by Grace through faith and not of our own doing.
It is the gift of God, not a result of works, lest any man should boast.
 
Christrucified…

While we appreciate the effort you put into your posting…I think that you are missing the point that several of us have tried to make here…

You state early on that James supports Faith alone…and yet James specifically says that one is NOT saved by faith alone. Likewise James does not say that one is saved by works alone. But just as works without faith are worthless…so faith without works is dead.
James 2:14-18
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. 18 But some one will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith.

If I may ask you a question…
Why is there this desire on the part of you and your compatriots to separate faith from works - as if they are two completely different and distinct things?
Scripture clearly and repeatedly does not separate the two things. Sure the importance of belief - of faith and trust etc are made clear…but not only does the Holy Spirit - through James - declare that faith without works is dead…But Jesus Himself declares in Mt 25 that we will not be judged by our faith alone - but by what we do to the least of our brothers…

So - I ask again - and I really want to know - Why is there this (apparent) need among you and your brethren to try and separate faith and works?

Peace
James
 
Christrucified…

While we appreciate the effort you put into your posting…I think that you are missing the point that several of us have tried to make here…

You state early on that James supports Faith alone…and yet James specifically says that one is NOT saved by faith alone. Likewise James does not say that one is saved by works alone. But just as works without faith are worthless…so faith without works is dead.
James 2:14-18
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. 18 But some one will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith.

If I may ask you a question…
Why is there this desire on the part of you and your compatriots to separate faith from works - as if they are two completely different and distinct things?
Scripture clearly and repeatedly does not separate the two things. Sure the importance of belief - of faith and trust etc are made clear…but not only does the Holy Spirit - through James - declare that faith without works is dead…But Jesus Himself declares in Mt 25 that we will not be judged by our faith alone - but by what we do to the least of our brothers…

So - I ask again - and I really want to know - Why is there this (apparent) need among you and your brethren to try and separate faith and works?

Peace
James
I think one must have faith, and demonstrate that faith through deeds, so both are needed… Catholics have a long tradition of helping people, and I suspect our helping the poor and needy is about reflecting our faith in Jesus by performing deeds that follow the example of Jesus
 
ChristCrucified,

Your interpretation of the case of Abraham presupposes that he could not grow in his justification; this not the case. The same author, St. James, when telling us of Abraham, says:
[21] Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar? [22] Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect? [23] And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God. [24] Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only? [25] And in like manner also Rahab the harlot, was not she justified by works, receiving the messengers, and sending them out another way?
(Ch. 2:21-25).

James could not be any more explicit that a man is not justified “by faith only”. And you have given us a sampling of passages that speak of the necessity of faith, but we cannot ignore those that deal with the role works play in our salvation.

As “the Council of Trent taught ‘none of those things that precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification’ (JD 8).” (Source: drbo.org/chapter/66002.htm)

But after we are justified, God gives us the Grace (on each occasion) to do works and promises to reward these works, even with eternal life. Thus to take the position you do, you are left with Sacred Scripture that contradicts itself, which can never be.

explainsCatholic Encyclopedia:
‘Although St. Paul insists on nothing more strongly than the absolute gratuitousness of Christian grace, still he acknowledges merits founded on grace and also the reward due to them on the part of God, which he variously calls ‘prize’ (Philippians 3:14; 1 Corinthians 9:24) ‘reward’ (Colossians 3:24; 1 Corinthians 3:8), ‘crown of justice’ (2 Timothy 4:7 sq.; cf. James 1:12). It is worthy of note that, in these and many others good works are not represented as mere adjuncts of justifying faith, but as real fruits of justification and part causes of our eternal happiness.’
It is incumbent to keep in mind that when St. Paul speaks of “works” in those passages where he tells us that no one is justified by them , he means “works of the law” (Romans 3:20), i.e. the Mosaic Law, or more broadly, works done not in a state of Grace, and not through the power of God.

Thus, the St. Paul, who teaches us that “…by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God; [9] Not of works, that no man may glory” (Ephesians 2:8-9), also teaches us that God: “…will render to every man according to his works. [7] To them indeed, who according to patience in good work, seek glory and honour and incorruption, eternal life: [8] But to them that are contentious, and who obey not the truth, but give credit to iniquity, wrath and indignation.” (Romans 2:6-8). Notice, works actually play a role in our eternal destiny; works can be either meritorious (in cooperation with God’s grace and in a state of grace), and they can also be evil (i.e. “works of iniquity”), and one can bring about one’s own eternal condemnation by doing them.

And again, "[7] Be not deceived, God is not mocked. [8] For what things a man shall sow, those also shall he reap. For he that soweth in his flesh, of the flesh also shall reap corruption. But he that soweth in the spirit, of the spirit shall reap life everlasting. " (Galatians 6: 7-8).

Only the Catholic position does justice to the entirety of Sacred Scripture, and all others inasmuch as they agree with it.
 
Christrucified…

While we appreciate the effort you put into your posting…I think that you are missing the point that several of us have tried to make here…

You state early on that James supports Faith alone…and yet James specifically says that one is NOT saved by faith alone. Likewise James does not say that one is saved by works alone. But just as works without faith are worthless…so faith without works is dead.
James 2:14-18
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. 18 But some one will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith.

If I may ask you a question…
Why is there this desire on the part of you and your compatriots to separate faith from works - as if they are two completely different and distinct things?
Scripture clearly and repeatedly does not separate the two things. Sure the importance of belief - of faith and trust etc are made clear…but not only does the Holy Spirit - through James - declare that faith without works is dead…But Jesus Himself declares in Mt 25 that we will not be judged by our faith alone - but by what we do to the least of our brothers…

So - I ask again - and I really want to know - Why is there this (apparent) need among you and your brethren to try and separate faith and works?

Peace
James
(Blue emphasis mine).

James,

I can tell you from my former view as a former Protestant, in eliminating works from the equation of salvation, I believed I was contending for the truth of the Gospel.

At the most I think I would have admitted that good works are an inevitable fruit of being saved but played no role in our eternal destiny.
 
(Blue emphasis mine).

James,

I can tell you from my former view as a former Protestant, in eliminating works from the equation of salvation, I believed I was contending for the truth of the Gospel.

At the most I think I would have admitted that good works are an inevitable fruit of being saved but played no role in our eternal destiny.
Yes - this is the view I have seen before from others. However - this does not answer the question “Why”.
If, as you say, the “Faith alone” adherent can admit that works are an inevitable fruit of faith then it should be obvious that these things are not separate things nor are they somehow contrary to or contentious with each other…
Works is a part of a living and saving faith (as you say inevitable fruit) so WHY the need among some to separate the two things?

I’m actually thinking of starting a separate thread for this question…

Peace
James
 
Yes - this is the view I have seen before from others. However - this does not answer the question “Why”.
If, as you say, the “Faith alone” adherent can admit that works are an inevitable fruit of faith then it should be obvious that these things are not separate things nor are they somehow contrary to or contentious with each other…
Works is a part of a living and saving faith (as you say inevitable fruit) so WHY the need among some to separate the two things?

I’m actually thinking of starting a separate thread for this question…

Peace
James
James,
I would agree with all of this. It was touched on by Lionheart777 the issue of growing in justification, and this I think is the issue. At least for Lutherans, we see a distinction (not a separation) between justification and sanctification. In short, we come to justification by grace alone through faith alone in the work of Christ alone. We view growth in grace, be it good works, participation in word and sacrament, etc., as part of our sanctification.
The distinction from our POV has to do with the fact that justification is the work solely of the Triune God, and is itself a gift of grace. Sanctification will involve our response to grace.

Jon
 
James,
I would agree with all of this. It was touched on by Lionheart777 the issue of growing in justification, and this I think is the issue. At least for Lutherans, we see a distinction (not a separation) between justification and sanctification. In short, we come to justification by grace alone through faith alone in the work of Christ alone. We view growth in grace, be it good works, participation in word and sacrament, etc., as part of our sanctification.
The distinction from our POV has to do with the fact that justification is the work solely of the Triune God, and is itself a gift of grace. Sanctification will involve our response to grace.

Jon
Nicely put Jon,…I think that from my perspective - when I read and discuss these things - I would like to see the term “Alone” dropped. I have to say that I think it is much more of a barrier than it is a bridge.
Maybe others see it differently (and I’m just thinking of this as I’m typing)…but to me “alone” is a very exclusionary term. Alone makes one instantly wonder what is excluded from salvation (saving faith) rather than what is included in it.

It seems that these conversations always come to the same conclusion - through the same set of distinctives…First is the trading of verses between Paul, James and the Gospels…generally this is followed by, as you say above, the investigation of terms and how the matter of belief and action interact…then, if the participants are still talking to one another, 😉 the conclusion is something along the lines of, “It’s faith that saves and works are needed as evidence of faith”…Which of course means that works are a necessary part of salvation.
The only difference is how one expresses how works fits into the picture.

I’m sure that if “ChristCrucified” returns later to discuss the matter further - in good faith - that the conversation will pretty much take the same outline as above.

Peace
James
 
James,
I would agree with all of this. It was touched on by Lionheart777 the issue of growing in justification, and this I think is the issue. At least for Lutherans, we see a distinction (not a separation) between justification and sanctification. In short, we come to justification by grace alone through faith alone in the work of Christ alone. We view growth in grace, be it good works, participation in word and sacrament, etc., as part of our sanctification.
The distinction from our POV has to do with the fact that justification is the work solely of the Triune God, and is itself a gift of grace. Sanctification will involve our response to grace.

Jon
I agree you put things as well as you can with keeping in the frame of heart of the Lutheran.😉
I enjoy your explanations of “Faith Alone”
I can Look at this bolded part and see truth, IF the work of Christ is made manifest through us…IF the work of Christ’s grace compells our hearts to true conversion. We both offer our children the saving waters of baptism, right? This is proof of our acknowledgment of the free works of Christ’s merit of salvation/justification. Though, we are tested in this life! Our faith is tested…and the God who we love demands our lives to bear fruits in accordance with our conversion, otherwise, our faith was not from the same Spirit which freely gave us our baptism.
Nicely put Jon,…I think that from my perspective - when I read and discuss these things - I would like to see the term “Alone” dropped. I have to say that I think it is much more of a barrier than it is a bridge.
Maybe others see it differently (and I’m just thinking of this as I’m typing)…**but to me “alone” is a very exclusionary term. Alone makes one instantly wonder what is excluded from salvation (saving faith) rather than what is included in it. **

It seems that these conversations always come to the same conclusion - through the same set of distinctives…First is the trading of verses between Paul, James and the Gospels…generally this is followed by, as you say above, the investigation of terms and how the matter of belief and action interact…then, if the participants are still talking to one another, 😉 the conclusion is something along the lines of, “It’s faith that saves and works are needed as evidence of faith”…Which of course means that works are a necessary part of salvation.
The only difference is how one expresses how works fits into the picture.

I’m sure that if “ChristCrucified” returns later to discuss the matter further - in good faith - that the conversation will pretty much take the same outline as above.

Peace
James
I cannot genuinely see things differently than this. I converted to Catholicism feeling Our Father speeking this language. Our “Faith and Works” doctrine is not a reactionary belief, like protestant doctrine, which seems so “oppossitional” based. It is a voice that recognizes the reality of cooperation,…but without denying the ever present neccessity of the sanctifying grace which allows us to participate in His good work. Denying ourselves in order to do the will of the Father is the hard part. It is where merit comes into play. For it is truly not seeking gain from Godliness, but receiving it as the most prescious gift possible and obeying His Spirit because we were changed to the very core.
 
=rcwitness;11043012]I agree you put things as well as you can with keeping in the frame of heart of the Lutheran.😉
Thank you, I think. :D. You make it sound like I’m straining at the attempt. :p. I assure you, I am not.
I enjoy your explanations of “Faith Alone”
Thank you, sincerely.
I can Look at this bolded part and see truth, IF the work of Christ is made manifest through us…IF the work of Christ’s grace compells our hearts to true conversion. We both offer our children the saving waters of baptism, right? This is proof of our acknowledgment of the free works of Christ’s merit of salvation/justification. Though, we are tested in this life! Our faith is tested…and the God who we love demands our lives to bear fruits in accordance with our conversion, otherwise, our faith was not from the same Spirit which freely gave us our baptism.
I can’t argue with any of this.

Jon
 
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