Salvation through christ church affiliation

[NonDenom]

Please try not to confuse “mean spirited” with “zealous for the faith”.
Church Militant has always been clear, concise, and well informed while refraining from personal attacks. If what he says disturbs you, perhaps it is **you **

who should take a break.

Hey Mick
I know all your doing is sticking up for cm, but to be honest he’s no more zealous for his faith than many people I know on this forum and they don’t act like he does. Church accuses many of us doing the so called “drive buy” but all you have to do is read alot of his post’s and just like this last one, are a “drive by”. I don’t see much charity in 2 of his last 3 post’s.
In Him and Only Him

 

[Strider]

santaro75:

I think that alot of the stuff is not important in the Gospel message and therefor is not necessary for salvation.

Mt 16:18,19
“And I tell you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
Those are the words of Jesus, and it pretty much takes your “I think…” out of things. According to Jesus, His Church sets what you need to get to heaven, not what “I think” about the gospels or anything else. That’s the Protestant view.
If you choose to be Catholic, inform your conscience by reading the Catechism, the Code of Canon Law and other Church documents along with, of course, Scripture with a Catholic commentary.
Oh, and “fighting over religion,” if you mean defending your faith, is required of you if you are a confirmed Catholic.
If you want to be a “Christian,” just keep doing what you’re doing.

 

[Church_Militant]

NonDenom:

Hey Mick
I know all your doing is sticking up for cm, but to be honest he’s no more zealous for his faith than many people I know on this forum and they don’t act like he does. Church accuses many of us doing the so called “drive buy” but all you have to do is read alot of his post’s and just like this last one, are a “drive by”. I don’t see much charity in 2 of his last 3 post’s.
In Him and Only Him

Y’know, if you have issues with something that you think may violate the Forum Rules the proper way to deal with it is to use that triangular bad post report button in the offending post, NOT make unfounded assertions against another poster on the open forum.

You are way outta line in your remarks about my posts and I have no doubt that Mickey’s not the only one who knows better than to believe what you said.

If you find my remarks offensive, report the posts, or put me on your ignore list, but don’t try to tell me and the rest of us that I lack charity because that is factually inaccurate.

I am not insulting, but I offer the accurate information while showing that most of those who attack the Catholic faith do not really know what they are talking about, either because they have been misinformed, misled, or just choose to believe the worst. Regardless of the cause they are in error about the Catholic faith and I provide that information.

If you want to take offense at someone, I suggest that you take offense at the sources of the inaccurate information concerning the Catholic faith, since it is entirely possible that your eternal soul hangs in the balance.

Bishop Sheen was right when he said, “Few people in America hate the Catholic religion, but there are many who hate what they mistakenly believe is the Catholic religion—and if what they hate really were the Catholic religion, Catholics would hate it too.”
Pax tecum,

 

[onesimplemind]

NonDenom:

Hey Mick
I know all your doing is sticking up for cm, but to be honest he’s no more zealous for his faith than many people I know on this forum and they don’t act like he does. Church accuses many of us doing the so called “drive buy” but all you have to do is read alot of his post’s and just like this last one, are a “drive by”. I don’t see much charity in 2 of his last 3 post’s.
In Him and Only Him

Church is just asking for some clarifications in a no nonsense way. This doesn’t indicate a lack of charity or even ignorance. His little “drive-by” resulted in Santaro elaborating his?her? point of view which gave this thread some more depth.

 

[Church_Militant]

onesimplemind:

Church is just asking for some clarifications in a no nonsense way. This doesn’t indicate a lack of charity or even ignorance. His little “drive-by” resulted in Santaro elaborating his?her? point of view which gave this thread some more depth.

Which was my whole point, because I frankly don’t understand how anyone can consider any aspect of Christian truth as peripheral and irrelevent to salvation. It simply makes no sense to me. If one wishes to follow Christ then one commits to take up one’s cross and follow Him regardless of where it leads.

I think it’s a very dangerous error to assume that some truths are less important than others in Christianity. If I want to know Jesus Christ, then I want to know Him in spirit and in truth and fully. Trying to come up with some sort of “minimum requirements” to get to heaven is crazy.
Pax vobiscum,

 

[Genesis315]

God, in your infinite wisdom, you have deigned to reveal this to us, but I don’t think it’s important. :bigyikes:

 

[Church_Militant]

Genesis315:

God, in your infinite wisdom, you have deigned to reveal this to us, but I don’t think it’s important. :bigyikes:

Ouch!

 

[ReformedCatholic]

“I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life.”

Christ was about the Truth, first and foremost, because He is Truth itself.

Pilate did not recognize it - “What is Truth” – as he looked Truth right in the face.

The Church we have can provide for us the fullness of the Faith which is the Truth. Then we can perhaps love more correctly or fully… learn more confidently… share more openly.

But we cannot come to Christ, the Truth, on our own terms. It has to be on His terms. He was not “more about” what we do, but what we do in Him.

The love and service aspect are laudable and important in our lives… but they are the fruits of our salvation, not the means.

I believe that by emulating Him and being like Him, we align ourselves with Him and His will. I think these are His terms and was what His time on Earth was all about. To teach us how to be human- in line with the will of the Divine.

 

[ReformedCatholic]

16 And I will ask the Father, and he shall give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with you for ever. 17 The spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, nor knoweth him: but you shall know him; because he shall abide with you, and shall be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans, I will come to you. 19 Yet a little while: and the world seeth me no more. But you see me: because I live, and you shall live. 20 In that day you shall know, that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you.

*16 “Paraclete”… That is, a comforter: or also an advocate; inasmuch as by inspiring prayer, he prays, as it were, in us, and pleads for us.

16 “For ever”… Hence it is evident that this Spirit of Truth was not only promised to the persons of the apostles, but also to their successors through all generations. *

This is directly from Jesus…He will send us the truth but we must accept it (KNOW, LEARN)
And…

26 But the Paraclete, the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring all things to your mind, whatsoever I shall have said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, do I give unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, nor let it be afraid. 28 You have heard that I said to you: I go away, and I come unto you. If you loved me, you would indeed be glad, because I go to the Father: for the Father is greater than I. 29 And now I have told you before it comes to pass: that when it shall come to pass, you may believe. 30 I will not now speak many things with you. For the prince of this world cometh, and in me he hath not any thing.

*26 “Teach you all things”… Here the Holy Ghost is promised to the apostles and their successors, particularly, in order to teach them all truth, and to preserve them from error.

28 “For the Father is greater than I”… It is evident, that Christ our Lord speaks here of himself as he is made man: for as God he is equal to the Father. (See Phil. 2.) Any difficulty of understanding the meaning of these words will vanish, when the relative circumstances of the text here are considered: for Christ being at this time shortly to suffer death, signified to his apostles his human nature by these very words: for as God he could not die. And therefore as he was both God and man, it must follow that according to his humanity he was to die, which the apostles were soon to see and believe, as he expresses, ver. 29. And now I have told you before it come to pass: that when it shall come to pass, you may believe.*

31 But that the world may know, that I love the Father: and as the Father hath given me commandment, so do I: Arise, let us go hence.
Gospel According to Saint John

Could not the Truth and Spirit and Revalations not be an internal experience, rather than one defined by an external entity such as a church?

 

[ReformedCatholic]

Mickey:

Please try not to confuse “mean spirited” with “zealous for the faith”.
Church Militant has always been clear, concise, and well informed while refraining from personal attacks. If what he says disturbs you, perhaps it is **you **who should take a break.

Eh- it did come across as kind of mean-spirited… perhaps sarcastic.

 

[ReformedCatholic]

Strider:

Mt 16:18,19
“And I tell you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
Those are the words of Jesus, and it pretty much takes your “I think…” out of things. According to Jesus, His Church sets what you need to get to heaven, not what “I think” about the gospels or anything else. That’s the Protestant view.
If you choose to be Catholic, inform your conscience by reading the Catechism, the Code of Canon Law and other Church documents along with, of course, Scripture with a Catholic commentary.
Oh, and “fighting over religion,” if you mean defending your faith, is required of you if you are a confirmed Catholic.
If you want to be a “Christian,” just keep doing what you’re doing.

If you take this literally then Peter was a rock- which would imply Jesus was psychotic. And he had keys to Heaven. Where are these keys now? Why arent we more concerned with getting a hold of these keys? Why is the Bible figurative but literal in the same sentence when its convenient to support a particular teaching or doctrine? This confuses me.

Also, your denigrating attitude toward “Christians” is noted.

 

[Church_Militant]

ReformedCatholic:

Eh- it did come across as kind of mean-spirited… perhaps sarcastic.

What are you talking about?

I have explained exactly what I meant and it’s quite plain that I offered my responses without mallice. I can’t believe you guys attempt to make so much out of nothing…all I did was ask for clarification (which I got, thank you very much!).
Pax vobiscum,

 

[Church_Militant]

ReformedCatholic:

If you take this literally then Peter was a rock- which would imply Jesus was psychotic. And he had keys to Heaven. Where are these keys now? Why arent we more concerned with getting a hold of these keys? Why is the Bible figurative but literal in the same sentence when its convenient to support a particular teaching or doctrine? This confuses me.

Also, your denigrating attitude toward “Christians” is noted.

Implies no such thing, that is your projected interpretation.

If they were speaking in Aramaic, which was their normal language, (the fact is plain when you note that Peter was called Cephas. The Aramaic version of his name.) then the passage makes even better sense.

Go back and look at the OT references that speak of giving the keys of the kingdom to anyone.

So now “Christians” is a perjorative? What would you prefer?

 

[onesimplemind]

ReformedCatholic:

Why is the Bible figurative but literal in the same sentence when its convenient to support a particular teaching or doctrine? This confuses me.

Nice question. The answer is because one teaching has the right interpretion of the Bible because one teaching has to be the truth.

Jesus commanded his Apostles to continue his teaching (Matthew 28:20), so there has to be someone now with the right teaching or all of Christianity is a lie. Jesus didn’t come back and change things so all his teaching didn’t fundamentally change.

So there has to a teaching that is fundamentally the same as the teachings of Jesus that can be applied to the context of ever changing history. That teaching is the one that gets to interpret the literal and figurative portions of the Bible.

Is that the teaching you follow?

 

[santaro75]

Strider:

Mt 16:18,19
“And I tell you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
Those are the words of Jesus, and it pretty much takes your “I think…” out of things. According to Jesus, His Church sets what you need to get to heaven, not what “I think” about the gospels or anything else. That’s the Protestant view.
If you choose to be Catholic, inform your conscience by reading the Catechism, the Code of Canon Law and other Church documents along with, of course, Scripture with a Catholic commentary.
Oh, and “fighting over religion,” if you mean defending your faith, is required of you if you are a confirmed Catholic.
If you want to be a “Christian,” just keep doing what you’re doing.

OK, i have read that at least one hundre million times. Where does the church say you have to agree with her on everything to get to heaven? Find me a priest or bishop who can say that I must believe in everything the RCC says or Jesus, regardless of acts of mercy, faith, prayer, will send me to hell on the last day.

Fighting meaning, not defending, but condemning and hating on others. not saying it goes one here, but it goes on a lot between diff. christian sects.

 

[santaro75]

onesimplemind:

Nice question. The answer is because one teaching has the right interpretion of the Bible because one teaching has to be the truth.

Jesus commanded his Apostles to continue his teaching (Matthew 28:20), so there has to be someone now with the right teaching or all of Christianity is a lie. Jesus didn’t come back and change things so all his teaching didn’t fundamentally change.

So there has to a teaching that is fundamentally the same as the teachings of Jesus that can be applied to the context of ever changing history. That teaching is the one that gets to interpret the literal and figurative portions of the Bible.

Is that the teaching you follow?

Yup! what he said in the gospels! The church continues to apply it to an ever changing world and i align myself with them 100 percent on issues like abortion, death penalty etc.

 

[Tonks40]

Santaro75 -

Rereading this thread, maybe you’re trying to find out if in the Catholic Church we need to follow doctrine or practices.

Doctrine is essential in knowing and acknowledging the Truths of God’s Revelation through His Son, Jesus Christ. These need to be followed and agreed on.

Practices are the things we do as Catholics so that the doctrines of the Church ring true in our lives. Saying a Rosary is a practice, not a doctrine (tho it does support our belief in Our Blessed Mother, the Divinity of Christ, intercessory prayer to the Communion of Saints, etc.) I know some people that for some reason don’t say the Rosary…but they don’t dispell the above doctrines as unnecessary for belief and their salvation.

Maybe someone can expound on these further for me…my words are lacking sometimes.

 

[John_Henry]

santaro75:

I guess the argument is whether it is important to believe in all the RCC teaches or whether you are ok just practicing the basics in following the word of Christ.

I go to mass, pray the mass, take the eucharist and try to live my life the way Christ said to the best i can. I think that fighting over religion is counter to Christs teachings and breeds hostility and loss of charity, which to me is a sure sign of the absence of Christ.

I think you do more for the kingdom of heaven by feeding a hungry person than by believing in purgatory. Christ is glorified more when you help someone in need than professing that the pope is infallible.

False dichotomy #1: What the Church teaches is what Christ teaches. What the Church teaches is the basics.

False dichotomy #2: It is perfectly feasible to feed the hungry and believe in purgatory. Many people have achieved it in the past. Keep feeding the poor. That’s good. Now, submit to Holy Mother Church and believe all that is required for salvation.

 

[Strider]

ReformedCatholic:

If you take this literally then Peter was a rock- which would imply Jesus was psychotic. And he had keys to Heaven. Where are these keys now? Why arent we more concerned with getting a hold of these keys? Why is the Bible figurative but literal in the same sentence when its convenient to support a particular teaching or doctrine? This confuses me.

Also, your denigrating attitude toward “Christians” is noted.

I’m trying real hard, here, not to give a smart-alec reply. Let’s try a little education.
Jesus said this in Ceasarea Phillipi, where there is a huge rock formation. The quote doesn’t work well in Greek or English, but in Aramic, it’s a wonderful play on words. The point being that Peter is the solid rock foundation upon which Jesus will build his Church; the structure he leaves behind to teach and govern us in the Truth after he returns to the Father. Cf Mt. 6:24 - 27.
In the culture of first century Israel, the key to a city or a great house was a symbol of great authority. The king would give his prime minister the “master key,” to all of his possesions, thereby giving him all authority when the king is gone. Cf Isaiah 22:15ff.
So you can see how much metaphor and allegory Jesus packed into this little statement, and how much meaning it had for the Apostles. Oh, and “binding and loosing,” was a rabbinic phrase also conferring great authority.
The denigrating attitude must’ve been in the reading. It was not in the writing.

 

[Strider]

santaro75:

OK, i have read that at least one hundre million times. Where does the church say you have to agree with her on everything to get to heaven? Find me a priest or bishop who can say that I must believe in everything the RCC says or Jesus, regardless of acts of mercy, faith, prayer, will send me to hell on the last day.

I’ll do better than that. I’ll show you where the Pope says that Christ and the Church are inseparable.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=103468

“Therefore, there is no way to reconcile Christ’s intentions with the slogan that was fashionable a few years ago, ‘Christ yes, the Church no,’” he continued.

That’s just one little quote from the Wednesday Audience that’s linked above. Read it, then follow the next series of Wednesday audiences. JPII gave us Theology of the Body in two yers of Wednesday audiences. Benedict XVI will re-establish the Truth and necessity of the Catholic Church in the same way.
Questions? Ask the Pope.
I’m not trying to be antagonistic, here, but you seem to be trying to find a way to be “Catholic Lite,” and that just doesn’t work. When it comes to Dogma and Doctrine, it’s all or nothing. Christ IS the Catholic Church.
And Jesus won’t send you to hell. Only you can do that.