Salvation through christ church affiliation

[NotWorthy]

The point of most of Paul’s epistles is to protect Church Doctrine, or maybe to help clarify it. This, in its purest sense, is fighting over doctrines.

The Church is still charged to do that. If it hadn’t, then some would preach unitarian, some would preach trinitarian. Some would preach True God, True Man and some would preach Wholly God. On the surface that may sound insignificant, but to fully appreciate Jesus’ sacrifice, and how much it means to you and me, we must protect the truth.

Good Luck!

Notworthy

 

[JSmitty2005]

santaro75:

What I am saying is that fighting over doctrine is pointless. Nevermind.

I understand that but it doesn’t seem to be the biblical position:

“After a first and second warning, break off contact with a heretic, realizing that such a person is perverted and sinful and stands self-condemned.” (TItus 3:10-11)
This is telling me that we should confront those that teach false doctrines. Also, we see that Paul resists Peter “to the face.” Furthermore, I find St. Peter arguing (not “dialoguing”) with the Jerusalem contingent and our Lord getting angry and knocking over tables and pigeon cages and driving people out of the temple. And I also see Him calling folks broods of vipers and whitewashed tombs. It doesn’t seem to me like anyone in the Bible was very tolerant of false doctrines, so where did you get this idea that doctrinal differences are not a big deal?

 

[Mickey]

santaro75:

But the Catholic hierarchy has the higher ups living pretty richly like earthly kings do.

Wow! Where did you get that one?!?

The modern Vatican is not fantastically wealthy. In fact, it has run a budget deficit in most recent years and has an annual budget only around the size of that of the Archdiocese of Chicago.

Nevertheless, it is appropriate for high-ranking clergy to wear ornaments, because such things have been part of the true religion’s liturgical practice since ancient times. God commanded that the ephod and breastpiece worn by the high priest be made with gold, precious stones, and gems, including the ruby, sapphire, emerald, and amethyst (Ex. 25:7, 28:6-29, 35:9, 27, 39:3-21). He commanded that the high priest’s turban have a sacred diadem (crown plate) made of pure gold (Ex. 29:6, 39:30, Lev. 8:9). Gold was to be used in the priestly garments in general (Ex. 28:4-5). The purpose of these vestments and decorations was to give the high priest and the priests “dignity and honor” or “glory and beauty” (Ex. 28:40). Catholic clergy conform to the Bible in using these materials to honor God and his holy ministry.
(CA)

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[Much_concerned]

Mickey:

Wow! Where did you get that one?!?

The modern Vatican is not fantastically wealthy. In fact, it has run a budget deficit in most recent years and has an annual budget only around the size of that of the Archdiocese of Chicago.

Nevertheless, it is appropriate for high-ranking clergy to wear ornaments, because such things have been part of the true religion’s liturgical practice since ancient times. God commanded that the ephod and breastpiece worn by the high priest be made with gold, precious stones, and gems, including the ruby, sapphire, emerald, and amethyst (Ex. 25:7, 28:6-29, 35:9, 27, 39:3-21). He commanded that the high priest’s turban have a sacred diadem (crown plate) made of pure gold (Ex. 29:6, 39:30, Lev. 8:9). Gold was to be used in the priestly garments in general (Ex. 28:4-5). The purpose of these vestments and decorations was to give the high priest and the priests “dignity and honor” or “glory and beauty” (Ex. 28:40). Catholic clergy conform to the Bible in using these materials to honor God and his holy ministry.
(CA)

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Doesn’t it seem inconsistent with what Jesus told us? Adorning oneself to get dignity and honor.

(Matthew 23:11-12) “Anyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and anyone who humbles himself will be exalted.)

 

[Mickey]

Much concerned:

Doesn’t it seem inconsistent with what Jesus told us? Adorning oneself to get dignity and honor.

(Matthew 23:11-12) “Anyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and anyone who humbles himself will be exalted.)

Read it again my friend. The last sentence states: Catholic clergy conform to the Bible in using these materials to honor God and his holy ministry.

For your information, the Scripture you quoted has to do with the passion of pride and ego as opposed to the virtue of humility.

The egostical will be humbled but those with humility will be exalted.

Peace

 

[geno75]

Mickey:

Read it again my friend. The last sentence states: Catholic clergy conform to the Bible in using these materials to honor God and his holy ministry.

For your information, the Scripture you quoted has to do with the passion of pride and ego as opposed to the virtue of humility.

The egostical will be humbled but those with humility will be exalted.

Peace

Conform to the bible? The kingdom of heaven is at hand. The new covenant of salvation is now. Before the birth of the Messiah, God could of been honered in this way. But after his only son, our Lord and Savior had to wear and bear a crown of thorns, don’t you think ornate things like golden triple crown tiaras with embedded jewels is stretching this issue a bit? I just dont see God being honored by mans hands anymore.

Acts 17:29-31
“Therefore since we are Gods’ offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone-an image made by mans design and skill. IN THE PAST GOD OVERLOOKED SUCH IGNORANCE, BUT NOW HE COMMANDS ALL PEOPLE EVERYWHERE TO REPENT. For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead.”

 

[Mickey]

geno75:

Conform to the bible? The kingdom of heaven is at hand. The new covenant of salvation is now. Before the birth of the Messiah, God could of been honered in this way. But after his only son, our Lord and Savior had to wear and bear a crown of thorns, don’t you think ornate things like golden triple crown tiaras with embedded jewels is stretching this issue a bit? I just dont see God being honored by mans hands anymore.

Well let’s see… you will not accept Old Testament passages–what else do we have–hmmmm? Does gold, frankencense, and myrh ring a bell?

"Therefore since we are Gods’ offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone-an image made by mans design and skill. IN THE PAST GOD OVERLOOKED SUCH IGNORANCE, BUT NOW HE COMMANDS ALL PEOPLE TO EVERYWHERE TO REPENT…

This is speaking abour past idol worship, when men worshipped false gods. Nice try though gene!

 

[geno75]

Mickey:

Well let’s see… you will not accept Old Testament passages–what else do we have–hmmmm? Does gold, frankencense, and myrh ring a bell?

This is speaking abour past idol worship, when men worshipped false gods. Nice try though gene!

Keep smiling

St.Paul probably knew that new converts to Jesus Christ would be tempted to “serve and honor” their newfound God with the best of the best. Line 25-AND HE IS NOT SERVED BY HUMAN HANDS, AS IF HE NEEDED ANYTHING, BECAUSE HE HIMSELF GIVES MEN LIFE AND BREATH AND EVERYTHING ELSE." But as we see now today and in the past, despite St.Pauls teaching, men went ahead anyways and did such things.

Nice try though!

 

[santaro75]

Mickey:

Wow! Where did you get that one?!?

The modern Vatican is not fantastically wealthy. In fact, it has run a budget deficit in most recent years and has an annual budget only around the size of that of the Archdiocese of Chicago.

Nevertheless, it is appropriate for high-ranking clergy to wear ornaments, because such things have been part of the true religion’s liturgical practice since ancient times. God commanded that the ephod and breastpiece worn by the high priest be made with gold, precious stones, and gems, including the ruby, sapphire, emerald, and amethyst (Ex. 25:7, 28:6-29, 35:9, 27, 39:3-21). He commanded that the high priest’s turban have a sacred diadem (crown plate) made of pure gold (Ex. 29:6, 39:30, Lev. 8:9). Gold was to be used in the priestly garments in general (Ex. 28:4-5). The purpose of these vestments and decorations was to give the high priest and the priests “dignity and honor” or “glory and beauty” (Ex. 28:40). Catholic clergy conform to the Bible in using these materials to honor God and his holy ministry.
(CA)

well christ did not emphasis any of that. Seems like almost everything he emphasized was internal.

Metal and shiny things are meaningless and worthless anyway.

 

[Mickey]

geno75:

Keep smiling

Always!

geno75:

St.Paul probably knew that new converts to Jesus Christ would be tempted to “serve and honor” their newfound God with the best of the best. Line 25-AND HE IS NOT SERVED BY HUMAN HANDS, AS IF HE NEEDED ANYTHING, BECAUSE HE HIMSELF GIVES MEN LIFE AND BREATH AND EVERYTHING ELSE." But as we see now today and in the past, despite St.Pauls teaching, men went ahead anyways and did such things.

Of course God the Father does not need anything from us. What is your point?

geno75:

Nice try though!

Thank you kindly.

Heb 12:28: Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe;

 

[Mickey]

santaro75:

well christ did not emphasis any of that. Seems like almost everything he emphasized was internal.

Christ came to us as 100% human and 100% divine–
fully spiritual and in the flesh. "This is my body–This is my blood"

 

[geno75]

Mickey:

Always!

Of course God the Father does not need anything from us. What is your point?

Thank you kindly.

Heb 12:28: Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe;

Good, its nice to see you catch on so quick!

 

[Mickey]

geno75:

Good, its nice to see you catch on so quick!

Yes, I attempt to study Catholic doctrine as much as I can. Good of you to notice. :yup:

 

[Strider]

ReformedCatholic:

I disagree. I absolutely think you can work your way into heaven. I actually think that’s the entire point. I think serving others is the best way to live the Two Great Commandments. Faith is important, but I think if you do God’s work, he’s not really interested in who gets credit.

I really don’t like the “eat the flesh and drink the blood” talk. I know it’s what’s written and it was thought to be literal, but again, it doesn’t make sense: if it’s to be taken literally, then bread is not flesh, wine is not blood, etc. It just sounds creepy to me.

This is realy strange, in that Catholics are usualy the ones who are arguing foir works, but always with faith, which brings love and animates the works. It’s never works alone nor faith alone, but faith working through love. Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works. “Getting credit,” is not part of the equation.
Yes, it sounded creepy to the disciples who walked away from our Lord, too. They didn’t understand either. Jesus said it was his flesh and blood and he told us to consume it. That’s good enough for me, just as it was good enough for Peter:
Jhn 6:67 "Jesus said to the twelve, “Will you also go away?” 68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life; 69 and we have believed, and have come to know that you are the Holy One of God.”
That’s faith. Peter didn’t come up with that on his own. And, the Eucharist is the “source and summit” of our Catholic faith.
Creepy? You’re thinking like a man. “Eat my flesh and drink my blood…” That’s God talking.
No one understands it all, but we believe.

 

[santaro75]

Strider:

This is realy strange, in that Catholics are usualy the ones who are arguing foir works, but always with faith, which brings love and animates the works. It’s never works alone nor faith alone, but faith working through love. Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works. “Getting credit,” is not part of the equation.
Yes, it sounded creepy to the disciples who walked away from our Lord, too. They didn’t understand either. Jesus said it was his flesh and blood and he told us to consume it. That’s good enough for me, just as it was good enough for Peter:
Jhn 6:67 "Jesus said to the twelve, “Will you also go away?” 68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life; 69 and we have believed, and have come to know that you are the Holy One of God.”
That’s faith. Peter didn’t come up with that on his own. And, the Eucharist is the “source and summit” of our Catholic faith.
Creepy? You’re thinking like a man. “Eat my flesh and drink my blood…” That’s God talking.
No one understands it all, but we believe.

Baptism saves you (purchased for us through the cross). Your life style keeps your salvation. Faith in Christ is the only way to maintain the lifestyle.

 

[DustinsDad]

ReformedCatholic:

On the contrary, he is “loving God above all else” and “loving others as He loved us,” the foremost teaching of Christ. In light of this, he is doing exactly what Christ asked. The suggestion that the Church (obedience, submission to it, etc) is more important than Christ is actually a form of idolatry- ecclesiolatry.

Nope, the person in question is turning his back on God, saying “thanks but no thanks” to Christ’s body, blood, soul, and divinity, and propping himself up as “smarter” than the Church Christ established when it comes to matters of salvation - refusing to listen to the Church (see Matt 18:18). And again, when you reject the Church, Christ says you reject Him and He who sent Him. And if you don’t eat his body and drink His blood, the Lord says you have no life in you (see John 6).

You argument is not about the importance of “feeding the poor”, it’s about your perceived lack of importance of the Eucharist and obedience to Christ’s Church.

DustinsDad

 

[DustinsDad]

santaro75:

can you tell me again where Jesus said to submit to the Roman Catholic church?

Sure.

Matt 16:18-19
And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Matt 18:17-18
If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Luke 10:16
He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

Oh yeah…and St. Paul too:

Hebrews 13:17
Obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account. Let them do this joyfully, and not sadly, for that would be of no advantage to you.

Peace,

DustinsDad

 

[ReformedCatholic]

DustinsDad:

Nope, the person in question is turning his back on God, saying “thanks but no thanks” to Christ’s body, blood, soul, and divinity, and propping himself up as “smarter” than the Church Christ established when it comes to matters of salvation - refusing to listen to the Church (see Matt 18:18). And again, when you reject the Church, Christ says you reject Him and He who sent Him. And if you don’t eat his body and drink His blood, the Lord says you have no life in you (see John 6).

You argument is not about the importance of “feeding the poor”, it’s about your perceived lack of importance of the Eucharist and obedience to Christ’s Church.

DustinsDad

A nice interpretation, but a wrong one.

A Gentile and a tax collector? I don’t get it. I don’t see where this phrase “bind and loose” gives the church any particular authority. There are other passages where it is applied to the individual in the same manner.

If there’s no life in me, how am I typing? Again with the alternating literal/figurative convenience interpretations. It’s so confusing.

I wouldn’t say that I am “smarter” than the church, but I am certainly a better “Christian” than some of its Popes were- a point of contention that would throw a wrench in the idea of having blind faith in the church and never questioning it.

Serving others and serving God could be argued to be a more Divine Act than serving oneself by ceasing this service to others and God to go receive the Eucharist. Yes? No?

 

[DustinsDad]

ReformedCatholic:

A nice interpretation, but a wrong one.

A Gentile and a tax collector? I don’t get it. I don’t see where this phrase “bind and loose” gives the church any particular authority. There are other passages where it is applied to the individual in the same manner.

“…as a Gentile and tax collector” - means that an individual who refuses to listen to the church is cut off from the church. This is Christ Himself saying that the Church has the to authority to excommunicate.

Binding and loosing is Rabbinical language for authoity. The fact that Christ gave this athority to the Apostles in general (Matt 18:17-19) and Peter in particular (Matt 16:17-19) indicate their authority in His Church, and the fact that their binding and loosing is ratified in heaven means he’s backing it up by His power. If you have a problem with this, you have a problem with Christ, not Peter and the apostles (or their successors).

If there’s no life in me, how am I typing? Again with the alternating literal/figurative convenience interpretations. It’s so confusing.

It’s not confusing at all - just takes total and absolute faith in Jesus Christ, the words are His not mine - and He has the words of eternal life.

I wouldn’t say that I am “smarter” than the church, but I am certainly a better “Christian” than some of its Popes were- a point of contention that would throw a wrench in the idea of having blind faith in the church and never questioning it.

Christ gave us an example of what to do if those in authority are not living up to the faith:

(Matt 23:2-3) "The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat; so practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do; for they preach, but do not practice.

The Pharisees were hypocrites, bad examples to be sure. But Jesus still commanded folks to listen to them because of their God-given authority. Same thing applies to Christ’ Church as St. Paul teaches:

(Hebrews 13:17) Obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account. Let them do this joyfully, and not sadly, for that would be of no advantage to you.

Now what exactly are you talking about - this “idea of having blind faith in the church and never questioning it”?

Serving others and serving God could be argued to be a more Divine Act than serving oneself by ceasing this service to others and God to go receive the Eucharist. Yes? No?

It’s not either/or, it’s both/and. So your question once again is building up a false dichtomy. So the answer to this “argument” would be no.

DustinsDad

 

[santaro75]

DustinsDad:

Sure.

Matt 16:18-19
And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Matt 18:17-18
If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Luke 10:16
He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

Oh yeah…and St. Paul too:

Hebrews 13:17
Obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account. Let them do this joyfully, and not sadly, for that would be of no advantage to you.

Peace,

DustinsDad

none of this has to do with the RCC. though i know you are going to say that it does.