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NotWorthy
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OK, I’ll bite. Who does it refer to?
Notworthy
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santaro75
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well some of these verses refer to diff. people. but he who hears you hears me… refers to those that jesus sent/sends. believerss like me and you who he has sent to spread his saving message.
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DustinsDad
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Me and you are saying contradictory things…contradictory versions of the truth. Moral relativism. Can’t be Jesus speaking. One or both of us must be wrong. Looks like we have a disagreement (over the importance of the Eucharist, submitting to the Church authority, etc.) Where do we take it…to the church (Matt 18:17-18).
I submit to the Church. You submit to yourself.
Good luck.
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santaro75
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I submit to christ
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NotWorthy
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But the New Testament says submit to the Church if there is a disagreement.
I didn’t see Peter in Acts 15 say, “Submit to Christ”. No, he laid down the law, and “The whole assembly fell silent”. In numerous other cases, Paul didn’t say, “Submit to Christ”. No, he laid down the Law, and the Local Churches submitted. This Tradition has been passed down for 2000 years, and we Catholic are submitting to Christ! How? By submitting to the Church!
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santaro75
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why did they submit to paul when they had peter?
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NotWorthy
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I give up. Enlighten me!
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santaro75
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Sorry, I was actually sincerely asking. It is something i didn’t even think about until I read your post.
I was hoping you could enlighten me.
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JSmitty2005
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No. Although all of Christ’s followers are to help spread the Gospel, we are not all “sent” in the way that those in that verse were. Go to the following link and read about what it means to be “sent.”
home.inreach.com/bstanley/saved.htm
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santaro75
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**Luke 9 Who Will Be the Greatest **No. Although all of Christ’s followers are to help spread the Gospel, we are not all “sent” in the way that those in that verse were. Go to the following link and read about what it means to be “sent.”
home.inreach.com/bstanley/saved.htm
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46An argument started among the disciples as to which of them would be the greatest. 47Jesus, knowing their thoughts, took a little child and had him stand beside him. 48Then he said to them, "Whoever welcomes this little child in my name welcomes me; and whoever welcomes me welcomes the one who sent me. For he who is least among you all—he is the greatest."
49"Master," said John, "we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we tried to stop him, because he is not one of us." 50**"Do not stop him,"** Jesus said, "for whoever is not against you is for you."
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JSmitty2005
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santaro75 said:
This was during Jesus’s ministry and long before He commisioned His apostolic Church. Furthermore, you didn’t even address the idea of being “sent.” The Apostles are the ones with that commision, not all disciples.
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santaro75
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Yes the apostles were sent by Christ.
Who are the apostles now? Is the only one the Pope?
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JSmitty2005
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No. All of the bishops of the Catholic Church, including (as you’ve said) the bishop of Rome (aka the pope) are successors to the Apostles and therefore have their authority (ie. - binding and loosing, charism of infallibility, etc.).
PS - santaro, I really like you because you ask things genuinely. I’m getting tired of jerks on here and you’re not one of them. Just thought I’d let you know.
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santaro75
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Thanks, and i lilke your posts because you are obviously smart and have done alot of research.
What about the bishops of eastern traditions who are not in communion with Rome but have passed down the teachings of their churches and the laying on of hands during ordination leading all the way back to an original apostle?
What about the bishops of eastern traditions who are not in communion with Rome but have passed down the teachings of their churches and the laying on of hands during ordination leading all the way back to an original apostle?
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JSmitty2005
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Yup. They’re legit too. They have apostolic succession and therefore valid sacraments, etc. although I believe that the Church considers their sacraments to be illicit (kind of like how the SSPX is viewed) because they are in schism. This acknowledgement of true apostolic succession will hopefully be a catalyst for reunification of the East and West or in Pope John Paul II’s words, so the Church can “breathe with both lungs” again. I’m not sure, though, if they reciprocate the acknowledgement of apostolic succession. They seem to be the more hardheaded ones when it comes to dialogue.
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santaro75
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Yeah i have been to eastern rite churches and Wow, they are rich.Yup. They’re legit too. They have apostolic succession and therefore valid sacraments, etc. although I believe that the Church considers their sacraments to be illicit (kind of like how the SSPX is viewed) because they are in schism. This acknowledgement of true apostolic succession will hopefully be a catalyst for reunification of the East and West or in Pope John Paul II’s words, so the Church can “breathe with both lungs” again. I’m not sure, though, if they reciprocate the acknowledgement of apostolic succession. They seem to be the more hardheaded ones when it comes to dialogue.
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Athanasius18
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reformed catholic, you seem to be very angry at the Church. you speak of it as a power and money hungry institution that impedes our true Christian freedom. i think that perhaps you fail to see how close Christ the bridegroom is to His Church, the bride. You overemphasize the human element of the Church and dont give enough recognition to its divine element. the Spirit guides the Church in ALL truth, as Christ promised it would. In Timothy, we are told that the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth. If the Church teaches man made doctrines and errors as you say, what good is it then? we are left with the Protestant problem of “every man for himself” in determing truth and doctrine. clearly, this method fails and is contrary to the will of Christ. it seems arrogant to put our judgement above the Church. as for all the arguments that simply believing in the Gospel and doing good is enough, that is important. but lets look at the people who did that best: the saints. these folks focused more on Christ than any people who have ever lived. and they helped the poor, the outcasts, the hungry more than anyone. yet all of them would find it horrifying that a person would not believe in the doctrines of the Church. i think it was st. catherine who said that she would die for the smallest letter of the Church’s teaching. i think that pretty much sums up the attitude of the saints. would you accuse them of being too Church-centered and focused on man made doctrines? you can lecture us on this stuff, we are indeed in much need of grace, but its a lot tougher to tell that to the saints.
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santaro75
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It was christ who they loved. they met him in the Catholic Church. Many have met christ in other churches and have been stellar christians. I think Christ is the factor.
It is one thing to say that we are a great christian church of God. And another to say that we are the Only church of God. There fore the only dispensor of Christ in the world. That would imply all other christians are doomed.
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