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LilyM
Guest
What word does the original language of the Gospel (Greek) use in that passage? And what does that word mean?
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A_Pac
Guest
OK. Since you are so obvioulsly slow, let me spell it really slowly…Your comments reveal that you are ignorant of the Catholic Faith. Not surprising, since even most Catholics are ignorant of their own Faith.
Also, where in that quote in 1 Peter does it say anything about “Hell”?
Are you willing to admit to at least your ignorance?
I REJECT CATHOLICISM AND PROTESTANTISM!!
I’m not ignorant of them…I just don’t believe in them.
But thanks for playing.
A Pac
P.S. Why don’t you catch yourself up on the rest of the post so you can be on par with everyone else.
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A_Pac
Guest
I don’t want to look it up, so I’ll go from memory…What word does the original language of the Gospel (Greek) use in that passage? And what does that word mean?
It comes from parusia, meaning garden, or a paradise. Pretty close…
Thanks,
A Pac
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LilyM
Guest
So it’s untrue that those in hell are separated permanently from the righteous? interesting.Actually…Lazarus was a STORY…not a biography. It was metaphoric.
And yes, you’re right. He WAS preaching to the longsuffering of God. That’s the point…they weren’t in heaven yet, but somewhere between death and heaven and it certainly wasn’t hell. Could it have been perhaps…Paradise?
A Pac
And you missed my point entirely. If they were ‘of God’ then they were righteous, not wicked. Therefore saved, once Christ opened Heaven up for them.
Christ didn’t waste his breath on those who were irredeemably wicked, and unlike you he could read hearts and minds, and knew who was worth preaching to and who wasn’t.
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KofC660
Guest
That’s all you need to say. You are trying to use Catholic Scripture to refute the Catholic Faith. Do you not see the absurdity of that? In order to refute the Faith, you must refute Sacred Scripture. But you can’t do that, because once you refute Sacred Scripture, your own faith goes down the tubes.I REJECT CATHOLICISM
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A_Pac
Guest
On the contrary. You’ve yet to establish these intermediate locations between death and heaven/hell. If the good went somewhere before their final judgment, I daresay the wicked did as well. What about them?So it’s untrue that those in hell are separated permanently from the righteous? interesting.
And you missed my point entirely. If they were ‘of God’ then they were righteous, not wicked. Therefore saved, once Christ opened Heaven up for them.
Christ didn’t waste his breath on those who were irredeemably wicked, and unlike you he could read hearts and minds, and knew who was worth preaching to and who wasn’t.
A Pac
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LilyM
Guest
The wicked don’t need or deserve any second chances or ‘final judgement’ - they’re irredeemable, God knows they’re iredeemable, he didn’t need to wait until Christ died to judge them.On the contrary. You’ve yet to establish these intermediate locations between death and heaven/hell. If the good went somewhere before their final judgment, I daresay the wicked did as well. What about them?
A Pac
As a matter of fact he didn’t for the righteous either, he merely had to wait until Christ opened heaven to them by his death to welcome them in. The extent of Christ’s PREACHING to the dead (since their eternal fate was already sealed - can’t change your fate AFTER death you know) was merely to give them the good news of their salvation and lead them into eternal bliss.
The wicked went straight to hell upon death (like the rich man in the Lazarus story) without passing go or collecting $200 or second chances. Like Abraham says in the story ‘they had Moses and the prophets - if they did not believe them, they will not believe even if one should come back from the dead to them.’
Pretty interesting if you think of it in reference to Christ’s own death and resurrection, don’t you think?
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KofC660
Guest
Are you ready to admit to your ignorance?I don’t want to look it up, so I’ll go from memory…
It comes from parusia, meaning garden, or a paradise. Pretty close…
Thanks,
A Pac
If you are thinking of “parousia”, that is taken from the Greek “pareinai”, meaning “to be present”, referring to Jesus’ “Second Coming”. The word “paradise”, from Luke 23:43 comes from the Greek “paradeisos”, from the Avestan “pairidaza”, meaning an enclosed garden.
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A_Pac
Guest
Doh…so much for my memory! I gotta learn Greek!Are you ready to admit to your ignorance?
If you are thinking of “parousia”, that is taken from the Greek “pareinai”, meaning “to be present”, referring to Jesus’ “Second Coming”. The word “paradise”, from Luke 23:43 comes from the Greek “paradeisos”, from the Avestan “pairidaza”, meaning an enclosed garden.
Anyway…the garden thing is what I was getting at. I get partial credit.
A Pac
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
Not being a Catholic, maybe someone could help me. As I understand it, a protestant may enter heaven if s/he’s been baptized, etc. The extension is even to many others via baptism by desire. Please correct me if I’m off.
How does that complement the following ex cathedra?
Not so fast - there is a lot of detail to be filled in, between baptism of desire, the quotations below, & the NT. No one would be able to see how a skull, a ring-finger, a piece of cartilage, an Achilles tendon, & a few hairs fitted together, unless he knew what a human body looked like. All these fit together as parts of the human body - but take away knowledge of human anatomy & physiology, & how they do so will make no sense at all; people may even deny that they are meant to go togeher as parts of the same structure.
Catholic theology is like that - any systematic Christian theology is. Take these or those details in separation from all the others, as well as from each other, & the isolated details simply will not fit - anymore than an an eye-lid fits or can fit into a thumb-nail or elbow-joint.So: all the teaching of the Church is true - but it would be the work of countless lifetimes to see all the details of how. With these details, how they fit together is, mercifully, relatively straightforward.
“There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which no one at all can be saved” (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)
“We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff” (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.)
“[The Holy Roman Church] firmly believes, professes and teaches that none of those who are not within the Catholic Church, not only Pagans, but Jews, heretics and schismatics, can ever be partakers of eternal life, but are to go into the eternal fire ‘prepared for the devil, and his angels’ (Mt. xxv. 41), unless before the close of their lives they shall have entered into that Church; also that the unity of the Ecclesiastical body is such that the Church’s Sacraments avail only those abiding in that Church, and that fasts, almsdeeds, and other works of piety which play their part in the Christian combat are in her alone productive of eternal rewards; moreover, that no one, no matter what alms he may have given, not even if he were to shed his blood for Christ’s sake, can be saved unless he abide in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.” (Mansi, Concilia, xxxi, 1739.) (Pope Eugene IV, The Bull Cantate Domino, 1441).
Thanks,
A Pac
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I_Leatherman
Guest
So you’re saying the unsaved are the saved in paradise?No, not necessarily. Christ preached to the dead in 1 Peter. Were they all saved?
A Pac
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VociMike
Guest
So, A Pac, would you mind telling us then the point of the gospel in recording the thief’s words to Christ and Christ’s words to the thief? What exactly are we supposed to draw from that whole encounter which God saw fit to set down in scripture for us?
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I_Leatherman
Guest
You will be with me today in paradise because you are unsaved?
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A_Pac
Guest
Gottle of Geer,
So…I’m forced to take your word for it that when it’s all taken into account, it makes sense? Well, thanks for trying!
I Leatherman,
VociMike
I Leatherman
A Pac
So…I’m forced to take your word for it that when it’s all taken into account, it makes sense? Well, thanks for trying!
I Leatherman,
Umm…that wasn’t a very good answer to my question. Try again.So you’re saying the unsaved are the saved in paradise?
VociMike
Oh…maybe because it was THE LAST CONVERSATION OF CHRIST BEFORE HE DIED. Didn’t know that was a difficult one. Draw from what he said…Paradise, not heaven. If you don’t understand them in separate terms, it’s frankly evident that you’re missing something.So, A Pac, would you mind telling us then the point of the gospel in recording the thief’s words to Christ and Christ’s words to the thief?
I Leatherman
No. I don’t plan on dying today. But I’m sure the cops will come after you if I do.You will be with me today in paradise because you are unsaved?
A Pac
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VociMike
Guest
So there is no lesson God wanted us to learn from the thief on the cross? It just happened to be Christ’s last conversation so God thought he’d put it in the bible?VociMike
Oh…maybe because it was THE LAST CONVERSATION OF CHRIST BEFORE HE DIED. Didn’t know that was a difficult one. Draw from what he said…Paradise, not heaven.
Were there any other theologically insignificant words of Christ on the cross which God also chose to record in scripture?
What’s frankly evident to me is that you really could use some better forum manners.If you don’t understand them in separate terms, it’s frankly evident that you’re missing something.
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A_Pac
Guest
Mike,
A Pac
Yeah…that there’s a place after death called Paradise. I think that’s significant.So there is no lesson God wanted us to learn from the thief on the cross? It just happened to be Christ’s last conversation so God thought he’d put it in the bible?
If you read all the cr*p that I have to wade through to find a decent post, you’d be edgy too.What’s frankly evident to me is that you really could use some better forum manners.
A Pac
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jburgherr
Guest
It doesn’t matter if logic, bible passage, or apostolic teaching smacks him in the head, there will be no getting an agreement from A Pac. I have been reading the thread from beginning to end. I have never seen on this board an individual who displays such self-indulgent, egotistical, sanctimonious arrogance as A Pac.
There is no reason to be so irreverent to the people who are trying, in charity, to answer his questions. A Pac obviously does not want answers…he wants argument.
Stop feeding the troll.
There is no reason to be so irreverent to the people who are trying, in charity, to answer his questions. A Pac obviously does not want answers…he wants argument.
Stop feeding the troll.
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VociMike
Guest
Where do you say Christ is now?Mike,
Yeah…that there’s a place after death called Paradise. I think that’s significant.
There are plenty of non-Catholics here who manage it, and human nature being what it is, we’re more likely to read their posts with an open mind.If you read all the cr*p that I have to wade through to find a decent post, you’d be edgy too.
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A_Pac
Guest
Jburgherr,
A Pac
VociMike
A Pac
Pot…kettle.I have been reading the thread from beginning to end. I have never seen on this board an individual who displays such self-indulgent, egotistical, sanctimonious arrogance as A Pac.
Doesn’t that make you a bit hypocritical…feeding the troll and all?Stop feeding the troll.
A Pac
VociMike
Wherever he wants to be.Where do you say Christ is now?
OK…so I’m on day 3 of healing from surgery and trying to get off my oxycodone. I don’t like being on the pain killers…but maybe I should take some more if the pain’s getting to me.There are plenty of non-Catholics here who manage it, and human nature being what it is, we’re more likely to read their posts with an open mind.
A Pac
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I_Leatherman
Guest
Whatever you like.I Leatherman,
Umm…that wasn’t a very good answer to my question. Try again.
Let me ask the same question again?
Are the souls in paradise unsaved?
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