Salvation: What is necessary to go to heaven?

[Dale_M]

Non catholics CAN and WILL be saved. Deal with it.

They certainly can be saved, and it seems likely that many have been. However, God’s final decision on their souls is not known to us. It simply is beyond the scope of human reason.

Otherwise, your point is very consistent with Catholic teaching. Here is what the Catechism of the Catholic Church says on the subject of salvation of non-Catholics:

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p3.htm

 

[ATeutonicKnight]

youtube.com/user/catholiccom#p/u/28/y0c_iyxNb4g

This statement is where I have a problem.

Yeah, except here’s the thing, that wasn’t my post. I replied to that post and gave the person a link to a Jimmy Akin’s video (I think). Your first clue should’ve been that I would never say “Ein Sucher” seeing as how I believe that’s a name, and if it is my name is Miles. If it’s not I have no idea what it means.

Also, the Church does teach that there is no salvation outside the Church. You can be baptized by blood, which means you died for the Church even though you’re not Catholic yet, and there is also something which I believe is called Baptism of Will, which means if your in a small African town or something and you’ve never heard of any sort of Religion in your life you’re saved. I might have said a few wrong things on that, but I never extensively researched it.

 

[NewsTheMan]

Also, the Church does teach that there is no salvation outside the Church. You can be baptized by blood, which means you died for the Church even though you’re not Catholic yet, and there is also something which I believe is called Baptism of Will, which means if your in a small African town or something and you’ve never heard of any sort of Religion in your life you’re saved. I might have said a few wrong things on that, but I never extensively researched it.

Indeed, but there are caveats. Invincible ignorance means just that - you really couldn’t know any better even if you tried.Furthermore, it’s more than just Baptism of Will and boom you are saved. You should also have lived a Christian life - which means (in essence) you must have responded to the grace of God throughout your life. That’s the sticking point.

 

[ATeutonicKnight]

Indeed, but there are caveats. Invincible ignorance means just that - you really couldn’t know any better even if you tried.Furthermore, it’s more than just Baptism of Will and boom you are saved. You should also have lived a Christian life - which means (in essence) you must have responded to the grace of God throughout your life. That’s the sticking point.

I meant this, yeah, but it was around one in the morning and I was tired from dancing the night away at a wedding. Thank you for making the distinction my mind probably made but my hands didn’t.

 

[guanophore]

 I'm trying to get my answers from Catholics themselves, so forgive me if I make mistakes or phrase this awkwardly:

All are welcome here, mistaken and awkward alike.

However, you cannot assume that all Catholics know their faith that well. It is probably best if you consult a Catholic authorative source such as the Catechism.

How is a person saved?

You will find a simple answer to this in a very famous Catholic book called the Bible. Catholics are saved just like everyone has always been saved:

Eph 2:8-10
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God - 9 not because of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

 Protestants would just say repent and believe in Jesus as God, Lord, Savior.

Yes, this is Catholic. However what Catholics understand as “believe” includes all that Jesus taught.

Do I have to confess to a priest to be saved?

If you have postbaptismal sin and you have already been confirmed in the Church, this is the most prudent course of action.

Do I have to do the 7 sacraments?

No. First of all, sacraments are not something we “do” but what we “receive”. They are avenues of God’s grace, which build us in holiness to make us fit for heaven. Anyway, no one could “do” all of them, as some of them are mutually exclusive. .

Are Protestants who pray to Jesus and repent going to heaven?

We don’t decide who goes to heaven, God does. But a person who willfully refuses to accept Jesus revelation of Himself through the Catholic Church places himself in grave eternal danger.

 

[guanophore]

It is very hard for a protestant to achive salvation simply because thy embrase false teachings and hold them as truth, and are seperated from the only Ark of Salvation, the Body of Christ. They are our esrtanged cousins, if anything (WITH REGARD TO FAITH ONLY), not our brothers and sisters in faith, as we have the truth, and putting them on the same level as us in that regard would be equating them to having the truth also, which is false, because they don’t.

These statements are not consistent with what is taught in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.Wounds to unity

817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270 - do not occur without human sin:

Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.271

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic **Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers **. . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272 819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

And the Church certanly does not approv e of interfaith mairrage at all. In fact, a dispensation is required for one and it is strongly discouraged. Another falsehood,

If it were not approved, then a dispensation would not be available, would it?

While Protestansts are children of God, if they remain Protestant they can not (or at least it is very hard for them to) achieve salvation because the sacraments and the graces vital and neccesacary for salvation are cut off from them because they are not a part of the Body of Christ.

God Bless and Ave Maria!

Speaking of falsehoods…There is only ONE BODY OF CHRIST, therefore, all who are in Christ are members of it. The reason it is taught that there is no salvation outside the Church is because all who are saved are so through Christ, as there is no other name under heaven by which we may be saved. He is the head of His One Body, the Church, so all who are in Him, are members of Him. That is why validly baptized Protestants are received as brothers and sisters in Christ. Not all who are members of Him are visible Catholics.

 

[guanophore]

This is highly misleading. The Church and the Bible have never said that very few are saved.

Luke 13:23-25
23 And some one said to him, “Lord, will those who are saved be few?” And he said to them, 24 "Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

Matt 22:14
For many are called, but few are chosen."

Matt 7:13-14

13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

 This almost comes off as a Jehovah's Witness/Mormonistic (I can't remember which one believes it) view. The way you explain this it sounds as if there's absolutely no hope at all.

Not no hope, but certainly Jesus teaches that it is a difficult and steep path.

Praying everyday, believing in the Church, receiving the sacraments, and being an overall good person is the best way to get into Heaven. This is not that complicated, nor is it hard.

I agree, but Protestants don’t believe in the Church (part of the definition of being Protestant) and most of the Sacraments. Complicate that with the fact that they are receiving false direction on “being an overall good person” from errant pastors who are separated from the Apostolic Faith.

The reason most won’t enter is because they choose to live a life of sin instead of denying themselves and taking up their crosses. This does not mean those who do have a very slim chance like you’re trying to say.

What else coudl it mean? If it is required to be Holy, and it is required to take up your cross, then how can those who refuse to do so have any chance, even slim?

Your comment was extremely disheartening for me when I read it. I'm glad I've read the books that I have to be able to realize you are wrong on many accounts, otherwise I would've completely given up and decided to lead a life of sin.

Maybe you have no experience with Protestantism?

 

[ATeutonicKnight]

Luke 13:23-25
23 And some one said to him, “Lord, will those who are saved be few?” And he said to them, 24 "Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

Matt 22:14
For many are called, but few are chosen."

Matt 7:13-14

13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

Not no hope, but certainly Jesus teaches that it is a difficult and steep path.

I agree, but Protestants don’t believe in the Church (art of the definition of being Protestant) and most of the Sacraments. Complicate that with the fact that they are receiving false direction on “being an overall good person” from errant pastors who are separated from the Apostolic Faith.

What else coudl it mean? If it is required to be Holy, and it is required to take up your cross, then how can those who refuse to do so have any chance, even slim?

Maybe you have no experience with Protestantism?

I took this up with Father Vincent Serpa. He seemed to agree with me: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=604441

 

[JohnSimon]

I am involved in my parish’s RCIA program, the answer to your quesation for a pagan is to express faith in Jesus as Chirst, to seek Baptism, and then be Baptised: the ordinary way to join the kingdom of God.

This is very similar to many protestant churches, however what happens after Baptism is different in the Catholic Church. We must strive to follow Jesus’ prayer that we must be perfect as he is perfect, Through the Catholic Church God has given us the sacraments to receive the graces nessary to live our lives. As the Psalms say, only a sinner thinks that he is sinless, so we must go to confession regularly, confessing our sins, to bring us back to that pefect condition we had at our Baptism.

 

[guanophore]

I took this up with Father Vincent Serpa. He seemed to agree with me: [forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=604441](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=604441)

It seems that way because the context is different. You are addressing your question as a Catholic to a Catholic priest.

The OP is asking as a Protestant.

ATeutonicKnight:

In the theological books I’ve read they always say that it is hard, but not impossible, and it is actually pretty easy to get into heaven, as long as you obey the Church, pray to and trust God, receive the sacraments, and overall just stay a good person.

What you don’t seem to realize is that the reasons you give are the very reasons it very difficult for non-Catholics to get to heaven. They are not in communion or submission to the Church founded by Christ, and generally do not obey the authorities He placed over His flock to teach and guide it. They do not have access to teh sacraments, and are receiving erroneous instruction on morals, so are subject to confusion about what it is to be a “good person”.

They lack all the advantages Catholics have that are the basis for our hope.

 

[thistle]

To get to Heaven you must be baptised, Catholic, and die in a state of grace.

Church teachings:

• Baptism is necessary for salvation (but does not ensure it as you must die in a state of grace).
• There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church.

So how can you be baptised and Catholic/deemed to be Catholic? There are 4 ways:

• Sacramental Baptism as a Catholic
• Baptism of Blood (non-Catholic dying for the Catholic Faith)
• Baptism of Desire - Explicit (e.g. a catechumen going through RCIA)
• Baptism of Desire - Implicit (invincible ignorance which means those who through no fault of their own do not know Christ, His Gospel, or His Church but still live a life according to the teachings of Christ in that ignorance)

Outside the above 4 there is no salvation.
Not all Catholics go to Heaven but everyone in Heaven is a Catholic.

With regard to unbaptised babies the Church does not know what happens to them which is why the Church teaches we leave them to God’s mercy.

 

[ATeutonicKnight]

To get to Heaven you must be baptised, Catholic, and die in a state of grace.

Church teachings:

• Baptism is necessary for salvation (but does not ensure it as you must die in a state of grace).
• There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church.

So how can you be baptised and Catholic/deemed to be Catholic? There are 4 ways:

• Sacramental Baptism as a Catholic
• Baptism of Blood (non-Catholic dying for the Catholic Faith)
• Baptism of Desire - Explicit (e.g. a catechumen going through RCIA)
• Baptism of Desire - Implicit (invincible ignorance which means those who through no fault of their own do not know Christ, His Gospel, or His Church but still live a life according to the teachings of Christ in that ignorance)

Outside the above 4 there is no salvation.
Not all Catholics go to Heaven but everyone in Heaven is a Catholic.

With regard to unbaptised babies the Church does not know what happens to them which is why the Church teaches we leave them to God’s mercy.

Although this is mostly true, some people who die in Mortal Sin go to Heaven. You simply must have Perfect Contrition to do so, which is about as rare as seeing an honest lawyer to have.

 

[NewsTheMan]

Although this is mostly true, some people who die in Mortal Sin go to Heaven.

No, they don’t. If you die in an unrepentant state of mortal sin, you go to hell. Period.

 

[thistle]

Although this is mostly true, some people who die in Mortal Sin go to Heaven. You simply must have Perfect Contrition to do so, which is about as rare as seeing an honest lawyer to have.

The act of perfect contrition forgives mortal sins so the person does not die in a state of mortal sin. They die in a state of grace.

 

[lisahiku]

To get to Heaven you must be baptised, Catholic, and die in a state of grace.

.

So IF this statement is 100% true, then where would a deceased baptized lutheran baby go?

 

[NewsTheMan]

So IF this statement is 100% true, then where would a deceased baptized lutheran baby go?

The statement is true. Those are the ordinary means of salvation. As for where deceased baptized lutheran babies go - they have died in a state of grace (no baby can commit personal sin) and they have been baptized. So they’ve gone to heaven. Lutheran baptisms are valid.

 

[stephenkeely]

Again, I’m not denying that it is hard. It most certainly is! Denying yourself daily is the hardest part of this, in fact. But I’m saying that your comment almost came off as “Even if you do all of these things, it’s hard.” Jesus and the Saints have never stated something like this I don’t believe. The Saints have commented saying that most will go to Hell most definitely, but they never said most that follow the teachings of the Church, that receive the Sacraments, that pray to God everyday, and try to be the best versions of themselves go to Hell. There is a big difference, and I was just trying to distinguish the difference.

The reason I was very against your comment and said that I would turn to sin if I was the way I was a year ago is because for a long time I thought it was impossible to get to Heaven, that only the Saints got into Heaven, and when I was convinced otherwise, I was sure of God’s mercy and how easy his way was. I still am. There are many challenges, of course, but with God and his help all things are made easy. It was very frightening for me when I read your post because I thought "What if I’m wrong and this person is right? What are my chances then?

" I realize now that you probably meant to distinguish the two points I made in the paragraph above, but this is really what I felt, and if I didn’t have a strong faith, and I was the way I was a year ago, I probably would’ve forgotten the whole God thing and just did what I pleased.

 

[stephenkeely]

Firstly the church teaches that we can have a confident expectation of going to heaven. The question should not be is it hard to go to heaven, but is it hard to live the Christian life. The answer is, that it is not hard, but impossible because you can’t live it. The Christian life is not about you living it, but allowing Christ to live his life in and through you. The dying to self is dying to all self effort, as the saint’s say “let go, and let God” Sanctification is God’s work, not ours, all we can do is cooperate by getting out of the way and allowing God to do what He wants. We have to take our hands off, so to speak. In essence we have to be willing to let God love us, only when we do that will his love flow out of us to others. We love because He first loved us. And let me assure you my brother that Daddy God is absolutely crazy about you. There is nothing you can do to make Him love you more than he does and There is nothing you can do that will make Him love you less. It’s His love that transforms us.

 

[guanophore]

Firstly the church teaches that we can have a confident expectation of going to heaven. The question should not be is it hard to go to heaven, but is it hard to live the Christian life. The answer is, that it is not hard, but impossible because you can’t live it. The Christian life is not about you living it, but allowing Christ to live his life in and through you. The dying to self is dying to all self effort, as the saint’s say “let go, and let God” Sanctification is God’s work, not ours, all we can do is cooperate by getting out of the way and allowing God to do what He wants. We have to take our hands off, so to speak. In essence we have to be willing to let God love us, only when we do that will his love flow out of us to others. We love because He first loved us. And let me assure you my brother that Daddy God is absolutely crazy about you. There is nothing you can do to make Him love you more than he does and There is nothing you can do that will make Him love you less. It’s His love that transforms us.

Excellent post, Stephen!

 

[NeelyAnn]

The statement is true. Those are the ordinary means of salvation. As for where deceased baptized lutheran babies go - they have died in a state of grace (no baby can commit personal sin) and they have been baptized. So they’ve gone to heaven. Lutheran baptisms are valid.

Slight semantical correction here (although I’m sure NewsThe Man is already aware of this). The is no such thing as a Lutheran Baptism. There is a Catholic baptism that Lutherans use illicitly. But, since anyone can administer the Catholic sacrament of baptism; and since even an illicit Catholic baptism is valid, it follows that a Lutheran is able to validly administer the Catholic Sacrament.

And since the child is unable to sin, if they die before reaching the age of reason, the Catholic Baptism that was illicitly administered by the Lutheran Minister, will save them.