SALVATION: Who Should We Trust to Show us the Way?

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ChristianWAB

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MariaG invited me to, “…feel free to start a new thread on even one Catholic doctrine that contradicts the Bible. If there is even one, I will leave the Catholic Church immediately.”

MariaG, I can already tell by the tone of that response that, even if I give you ten doctrines that contradict the Bible, you won’t be going anywhere. However, since you brought it up, we might as well start at the top – SALVATION.

After all, if we can’t get the Bible and the Roman Catholic Church to agree on this, then there’s really no need to go any further. So, with your kind permission, I’d like to start here.

Is that okay? :cool:
 
We should trust the Catholic Church, of course!

But, you see, trusting the Catholic Church means trusting the Word of God, both in written form and in Oral form. Why should we ignore everything Jesus taught the Apostles that wasn’t written down?

So trusting the Bible means trusting the Catholic Church and vice versa.

BTW, judging from the tone of your questions, it seems you don’t think the two agree on Salvation.

Notworthy
 
I appreciate your intention to take Maria up on this challenge, however, I’m not sure you have. . .

Could you please clarify your understanding of how exactly the Church and the Bible “disagree” on the topic of SALVATION?
 
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JaneFrances:
I appreciate your intention to take Maria up on this challenge, however, I’m not sure you have. . .

Could you please clarify your understanding of how exactly the Church and the Bible “disagree” on the topic of SALVATION?
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Sorry. I was just waiting to hear from MariaG before I opened up, but I have noticed differences between what the Bible says and what the Roman Catholic Church says regarding salvation. If you’d like, I would of course be happy to expatiate before hearing back from her, but I was just trying to be polite by waiting for her response. 🙂
 
ChristianWAB said:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1132686&postcount=39

MariaG invited me to, “…feel free to start a new thread on even one Catholic doctrine that contradicts the Bible. If there is even one, I will leave the Catholic Church immediately.”

MariaG, I can already tell by the tone of that response that, even if I give you ten doctrines that contradict the Bible, you won’t be going anywhere. However, since you brought it up, we might as well start at the top – SALVATION.

After all, if we can’t get the Bible and the Roman Catholic Church to agree on this, then there’s really no need to go any further. So, with your kind permission, I’d like to start here.

Is that okay? :cool:
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Who should be trust to show us the way?
The Holy Mother Church, of course - the Bride of Christ Jesus Himself! After all, that’s why He founded the Church!
 
This is quite easy. Jesus shows us the way because he is the way, and teaches it throught the one holy Catholic apostolic church.
 
ChristianWAB said:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1132686&postcount=39

MariaG invited me to, “…feel free to start a new thread on even one Catholic doctrine that contradicts the Bible. If there is even one, I will leave the Catholic Church immediately.”

MariaG, I can already tell by the tone of that response that, even if I give you ten doctrines that contradict the Bible, you won’t be going anywhere. However, since you brought it up, we might as well start at the top – SALVATION.

After all, if we can’t get the Bible and the Roman Catholic Church to agree on this, then there’s really no need to go any further. So, with your kind permission, I’d like to start here.

Is that okay? :cool:
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Sorry, just now found your thread.

And you are completely mistaken. If there is one doctrine of the Catholic Church that contradicts the Bible, I will leave it.

I came to the Catholic Church through Scripture. If the Catholic Church contradicts Scripture, I would leave Christianity.

Salvation it is.

What doctrine of the Catholic Church contradicts Scripture about salvation?

To answer the question in your title, Who should we trust, clearly the answer is Christ. Scripture tells us the Holy Spirit will lead us to all truth. Scripture also tells us the Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth. Scripture also tells us that the Church will withstand the Gates of Hell.

So we can trust in the Holy Spirit to show us the way, through the teachings of Christ as revealed to the Church.

God Bless,
Maria
 
From the Catechism on Salvation:

55 This revelation was not broken off by our first parents’ sin. “After the fall, [God] buoyed them up with the hope of salvation, by promising redemption; and he has never ceased to show his solicitude for the human race. For he wishes to give eternal life to all those who seek salvation by patience in well-doing.”

Even when he disobeyed you and lost your friendship you did not abandon him to the power of death. . . . Again and again you offered a covenant to man.

124 “The Word of God, which is the power of God for salvation to everyone who has faith, is set forth and displays its power in a most wonderful way in the writings of the New Testament” which hand on the ultimate truth of God’s Revelation. Their central object is Jesus Christ, God’s incarnate Son: his acts, teachings, Passion and glorification, and his Church’s beginnings under the Spirit’s guidance.

161 Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation. “Since ‘without faith it is impossible to please [God]’ and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life ‘but he who endures to the end.’”

169 Salvation comes from God alone; but because we receive the life of faith through the Church, she is our mother: “We believe the Church as the mother of our new birth, and not in the Church as if she were the author of our salvation.” Because she is our mother, she is also our teacher in the faith.

1949 Called to beatitude but wounded by sin, man stands in need of salvation from God. Divine help comes to him in Christ through the law that guides him and the grace that sustains him:
Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. Phil 2:12-13.

1987 The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us “the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ” and through Baptism:
But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him. For we know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. The death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves as dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus. Rom 6:8-11

Because it is too long, I then refer you to paragraphs: 1987-2029 that discusses Justification, Grace, Merit, and Christian Holiness.

You then tell me what in here is contrary to the Bible (please look at the references too as they are incorporated into the Catechism) as this is a good summary of the Church’s teaching on Salvation.
 
What a “coincidence”: I just came across this web site earlier today:

icubed.com/~rpoe/saved.htm
What the Bible Says

To be saved, you must believe in the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31), but the Sacred Scriptures show other things you must also do to be saved.
  • You must endure to the end. Matthew 10:22, Matthew 24:13, Mark 13:13.
  • You must accept the Cross (suffering). Matthew 10:38, Matthew 16:24-25, Mark 8:34, Luke 9:23, Luke 14:27.
  • You must be baptized with water. Mark 16:16, John 3:3-5 Titus 3:5, I Peter 3:20-21.
  • You must be a member in God’s true church. Acts 2:47.
  • You must confess your sins. James 5:16, I John 1:9
  • You must keep the Commandments of God. Matthew 5:19-20, Matthew 7:21
  • You must heed the words of St. Peter, the first Pope. Acts 11:13-14, Acts 15:7.
  • You must eat the flesh and drink the blood of Jesus Christ. John 6:51-58, I Corinthians 10:16, I Corinthians 11:23-29
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The only Church that meets all the requirements of Salvation is the Holy Catholic Church.
…But all I have to do is believe…

Simply believing that you are saved is not in agreement with the Sacred Scriptures, according to I Corinthians 4:4-5.
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For I am not conscious to myself of anything. Yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord. Therefore, judge not before the time: until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts. And then shall every man have praise from God."These verses show some important things:
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First: It shows that our understanding is too limited to know if we are “saved.”

Second: To consider ourselves to be saved before the time of judgement (After we die per Hebrews 9:27) is to violate a command of the scriptures.

Also see: I Corinthians 9:27, II Corinthians 10:18.
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Peace.
 
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Orionthehunter:
From the Catechism on Salvation:

55 This revelation was not broken off by our first parents’ sin. “After the fall, [God] buoyed them up with the hope of salvation, by promising redemption; and he has never ceased to show his solicitude for the human race. For he wishes to give eternal life to all those who seek salvation by patience in well-doing.”

Even when he disobeyed you and lost your friendship you did not abandon him to the power of death. . . . Again and again you offered a covenant to man.

124 “The Word of God, which is the power of God for salvation to everyone who has faith, is set forth and displays its power in a most wonderful way in the writings of the New Testament” which hand on the ultimate truth of God’s Revelation. Their central object is Jesus Christ, God’s incarnate Son: his acts, teachings, Passion and glorification, and his Church’s beginnings under the Spirit’s guidance.

161 Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation. “Since ‘without faith it is impossible to please [God]’ and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life ‘but he who endures to the end.’”

169 Salvation comes from God alone; but because we receive the life of faith through the Church, she is our mother: “We believe the Church as the mother of our new birth, and not in the Church as if she were the author of our salvation.” Because she is our mother, she is also our teacher in the faith.

1949 Called to beatitude but wounded by sin, man stands in need of salvation from God. Divine help comes to him in Christ through the law that guides him and the grace that sustains him:
Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. Phil 2:12-13.

1987 The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us “the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ” and through Baptism:
But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him. For we know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. The death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves as dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus. Rom 6:8-11

Because it is too long, I then refer you to paragraphs: 1987-2029 that discusses Justification, Grace, Merit, and Christian Holiness.

You then tell me what in here is contrary to the Bible (please look at the references too as they are incorporated into the Catechism) as this is a good summary of the Church’s teaching on Salvation.
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Thanks Orion,

If we are to discuss the teaching of the Catholic Church, we really should make sure to represent that teaching accurately.

So what in this from the Catechism is contrary to Scripture?

God Bless,
Maria
 
Sacred Scripture is self-admittedly hard to understand and easily twisted:
There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. (2 Peter 3:16)
Therefore, questions touching on salvation should be taken to the elders of the Church, as the early Church did when the question of circumcision arose:
6The apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider this matter. (Acts 15:6)

Who should we trust to show us the way? The apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers of the Church:
11And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, 12to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ; 14so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, by their craftiness in deceitful wiles. 15Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, 16from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by every joint with which it is supplied, when each part is working properly, makes bodily growth and upbuilds itself in love. (Ephesians 4:11-16)
Who should we trust? We should trust the leaders of the Church who are keeping watch over our souls:
17Obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account. Let them do this joyfully, and not sadly, for that would be of no advantage to you. (Hebrews 13:17)
Who should we trust? We should trust the elders of the Church whom the Holy Spirit has made overseers [bishops], to care for the church of God:
28Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God which he obtained with the blood of his own Son. (Acts 20:28)
 
I hesitate in setting down a strict set of guidelines for salvation. The bottom line is that God is the only judge for this (Psalms 50, Revelations 20:12-13). It is not my place to say who will go to heaven and who will not (1 Corinthians 4:5). However, we can clarify some misconceptions regarding some of the “recipes for salvation” that others promote. Some say that you only need to have faith in Jesus to be saved (Romans 10:9-13). However, we are reminded over and over (Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25) that we will be judged based on what we do. We are told that we are saved “by works and not by faith alone” and that “faith without works is dead” (James 2:14-26). On the flip side of the coin, putting our faith into action cannot possibly be an absolute requirement either. One of the criminals executed along side of Jesus repented, and Jesus told him “today you will be with me in Paradise” (Luke 23:39-43). He certainly had no works to show, so we must conclude that there is no specific rule regarding salvation. God will judge each case individually. (See also Luke 12:35-48)

Assuming no special exceptions (such as no works for the criminal next to Jesus (Luke 23:39-43), no baptism for the Old Testament saints, or invincible ignorance (CCC #1793)), we can make the following claims as reasonable requirements for salvation from sin and entrance into heaven:
  • Believe that Jesus sacrificed himself in order to allow us entrance into heaven (Romans 10:9-13)
  • Repent and be baptized (Acts 2:38)
  • Forgive others (Matthew 6:14-15)
  • Perform acts of charity and mercy (Matthew 25:31-46)
  • Accept the authority of the Church (Matthew 18:15-18, Ephesians 1:18-23)
  • Avoid serious sin (1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21)
  • Pray and confess any new sins (since baptism) often (James 5:16)
  • Correct others when they sin (James 5:19-20)
  • Participate regularly in the Lord’s Supper (Luke 22:19, John 6:51-58)
  • In general, do good (James 4:17)
There are probably other good guidelines, but these are a good start. Basically, it all boils down to: Trust Jesus, avoid evil, do good.
 
We should trust the Holy Spirit who will lead us to Jesus Christ,whom is the WAY. Jesus said that He would leave a Helper. My vote is for the Holy Spirit. 😉 God Bless
 
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SPOKENWORD:
We should trust the Holy Spirit who will lead us to Jesus Christ,whom is the WAY. Jesus said that He would leave a Helper. My vote is for the Holy Spirit. 😉 God Bless
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Agreed, and the Holy Spirit works through all of us, but specifically in protecting the teachings of the Church so that it can be the Pillar and Bulwark of truth.
 
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Superstar905:
Agreed, and the Holy Spirit works through all of us, but specifically in protecting the teachings of the Church so that it can be the Pillar and Bulwark of truth.
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The Holy Spirit can only lead one to THE TRUTH whom is Jesus Christ. 😉 God Bless
 
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SPOKENWORD:
The Holy Spirit can only lead one to THE TRUTH whom is Jesus Christ. 😉 God Bless
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Okay, I get it! So what you are saying is to trust in the Catholic Church to lead us to the truth, Jesus Christ, is to trust in the Holy Spirt to lead us to the truth, Jesus Christ!

Thanks for clearing that up for all of us, Spokes (no pun intended)!

Notworthy
 
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NotWorthy:
Okay, I get it! So what you are saying is to trust in the Catholic Church to lead us to the truth, Jesus Christ, is to trust in the Holy Spirt to lead us to the truth, Jesus Christ!

Thanks for clearing that up for all of us, Spokes (no pun intended)!

Notworthy
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Not quite ,What I,m saying is that you need LIFE and the Only way you are going to get a new LIFE is through Jesus Christ. To summarize what I,m saying; Jesus Christ is THe WAY,THE TRUTH and THE LIFE. 👍 God Bless
 
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SPOKENWORD:
Not quite ,What I,m saying is that you need LIFE and the Only way you are going to get a new LIFE is through Jesus Christ. To summarize what I,m saying; Jesus Christ is THe WAY,THE TRUTH and THE LIFE. 👍 God Bless
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Okay, I get it, now! So what you are saying is to trust in the Catholic Church to lead us to the truth, Jesus Christ, is to trust in Jesus Christ, since the Holy Spirit guides Her! All of this because all Catholics believe that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life! Yea and Amen, my brother!

Thanks for clearing that up!

Notworthy
 
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NotWorthy:
Okay, I get it, now! So what you are saying is to trust in the Catholic Church to lead us to the truth, Jesus Christ, is to trust in Jesus Christ, since the Holy Spirit guides Her! All of this because all Catholics believe that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life! Yea and Amen, my brother!

Thanks for clearing that up!

Notworthy
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Have you been drinking NEW WINE? 😃 LUV YOU. God Bless
 
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