Salvation: Why necessary? How does it work?

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jonfawkes said:
I can see that for those that reject him as savior, so what was the point of him dying if it didn’t settle a debt - iyo.
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Jesus redeemed you from your sins, so you can pick up your own cross and follow Him out of slavery.

No dying, no release from slavery to sin.
 
jonfawkes said:
I can see that for those that reject him as savior, so what was the point of him dying if it didn’t settle a debt - iyo.
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To prove His love for man in spite of mans hatred for Him. To prove what He shouldn’t need to prove- that we’re lost without Him-that He never deserved to be rejected, let alone mistrusted and hated. That the problem was mans’ problem all along because God always loved man and had his best interest at heart. That autonomy is good to a point until it means autonomy from Him, the source of life and inexhaustible happiness. So He not only dies but resurrects, conquering death, proving and showing the way to eternal life. Eternal life is to know and love God.
 
So iyo - the sacrifice was secondary or the byproduct of the conquering. Meaning the point was to conquer death. Death and resurrection was the means. God couldn’t conquer death without dying himself. Something like that?
 
In the book “Life of Christ” by Archbishop Sheen, he writes the following regarding the words spoken by Jesus on the Cross; “My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken me?”

Man rejected God; so now He willed to feel that rejection. Man turned away from God; now He, Who was God united personally with a human nature, willed to feel in that human nature that awful wrench as if He Himself were guilty. Earth had already abandoned Him by lifting His Cross above it; heaven had already abandoned Him by veiling itself in darkness; and yet suspended between both, He united both. In that cry were all the sentiments in human hearts expressive of a divine nostalgia: the lonliness of the athiest, the skeptic, the pessimist, the sinners who hate themselves for hating virtue, and of all those who have no love above the flesh; for to be without love is hell. It was, therefore, the moment when leaning on nails He stood at the brink of hell in the name of all sinners. As He entered upon the extreme penalty of sin, which is separation from God, it was fitting that His eyes be filled with darkness and His soul with lonliness.
 
jonfawkes said:
So iyo - the sacrifice was secondary or the byproduct of the conquering. Meaning the point was to conquer death. Death and resurrection was the means. God couldn’t conquer death without dying himself. Something like that?
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No, there’s more to it than that. In the Passion He took on all the worst-all the hatred of goodness, all the self-righteous arrogance –all the unwarranted, unjustified wrath and anger so easily flung around everyday in this world-all the stupid slavery to pride that leads people around by their noses but that they can’t let go of. All the stuff that kills our own sprit and which we use to kill the spirit of others. So we snuff out true righteousness-that based on love rather than pride-stomp on it spit on it torture it and humiliate it.

If you think everything’s pretty much hunky-dory in this world-that evil and sin are fallacious concepts or otherwise don’t indicate disorder in the universe-then the idea of redemption will also seem unnecessary. But if it makes sense that humankind needs convicting of sin-if it seems to you that evil exists and presents us with something that “should not be” and something which should be exposed for what it is -and definitively separated from good in men’s consciences- then the realization that, in Christ, the world in general treated as wrong that which was perfect righteousness itself, stands to accomplish this conviction.

God’s way is to take the hate down with Him-to turn the other cheek and not react in kind-to draw and reconcile by love rather than force-let alone annihilation., i.e., the wages of sin are not death to those who respond to the offer of love and forgiveness.

Of course, if there is no God, nothing “bigger” than us going on here and no real purpose to it all, then none of this matters. But I sensed otherwise and that’s why I was drawn to look into a variety of faiths, belief systems, etc. For myself the atonement has Gods handprint all over it. And it might still be just an old crazy story if not for the fact that along with it He gives the grace to believe it.
 
fhansen said:
No, there’s more to it than that. In the Passion He took on all the worst-all the hatred of goodness, all the self-righteous arrogance –all the unwarranted, unjustified wrath and anger so easily flung around everyday in this world-all the stupid slavery to pride that leads people around by their noses but that they can’t let go of. All the stuff that kills our own sprit and which we use to kill the spirit of others. So we snuff out true righteousness-that based on love rather than pride-stomp on it spit on it torture it and humiliate it.

If you think everything’s pretty much hunky-dory in this world-that evil and sin are fallacious concepts or otherwise don’t indicate disorder in the universe-then the idea of redemption will also seem unnecessary. But if it makes sense that humankind needs convicting of sin-if it seems to you that evil exists and presents us with something that “should not be” and something which should be exposed for what it is -and definitively separated from good in men’s consciences- then the realization that, in Christ, the world in general treated as wrong that which was perfect righteousness itself, stands to accomplish this conviction.

God’s way is to take the hate down with Him-to turn the other cheek and not react in kind-to draw and reconcile by love rather than force-let alone annihilation., i.e., the wages of sin are not death to those who respond to the offer of love and forgiveness.

Of course, if there is no God, nothing “bigger” than us going on here and no real purpose to it all, then none of this matters. But I sensed otherwise and that’s why I was drawn to look into a variety of faiths, belief systems, etc. For myself the atonement has Gods handprint all over it. And it might still be just an old crazy story if not for the fact that along with it He gives the grace to believe it.
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Thanks for clarifying. I’m still fuzzy on how you see it working though. You seem to see it as the ultimate example of nonviolent resistance. “No matter what you do to me, I will allow it. I will respond with love” which I can appreciate. It’s beautiful. It is salvation by saying “to avoid the rat race, don’t race.”

So atonement, iyo, isn’t a part of the death and resurrection. There was no debt to be paid. It was rather the ultimate wake up call.
 
Mulder said:
Porcupine, there’s a reason the answers never satisfy. Because the people here just parrot what their bible and priests tell them. It IS a silly concept, and hard to believe - that we’re all brought into this world as these ‘broken’ things, and that a scapegoat (jesus), had to supposedly die for our ‘sins’.

It’s funny how christians would put down pagan religions and their animal sacrifices, but they use the same barbaric rituals. Most likely to win over said pagans back when they were trying to convert them to christianity. They didnt want everything to seem TOO different from what they had already come to know and love…
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It should be noted that animal sacrifice for the Jews was instituted by God as a response to their falling into pagen rituals. Evidenced by their worshiping the golden calf. Sacrificing animals was a way to remind them that these creatures were worshiped by pagans but were not god and not to be worshipped.

IT should also be noted that Christians did not sacrifice animals–so it is false to say that Christians “use the same barbaric rituals…to win over said pagans back when they were trying to convert them to [C]hristianity.”
 
jonfawkes said:
This is all well and good but how does blood wash away sin? I get that the Animal sacrifices foreshadow Jesus’ blood sacrifice but still don’t get

***why does God (YHWH) need blood? ***
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God does not need blood. Isn’t it the sacifice? Isn’t it Jesus laying down his life–that shows the ultimate love for someone else? It’s the sacifice that atones isn’t it?
 
MarkInOregon said:
God does not need blood. Isn’t it the sacifice? Isn’t it Jesus laying down his life–that shows the ultimate love for someone else? It’s the sacifice that atones isn’t it?
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That’s the question isn’t it? 🙂 The gates of heaven were closed to man until the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. So why was that the key. How did his death open the doors?

I can see how it is a great example to us but not how it satisfies YHWH.

It shows God’s love but not why after the fact He opens the doors.

Some had said that a blood sacrifice was needed and the only one worthy was Jesus. So in that scenario God needs blood to be satiated, but there is no explanation on why a blood sacrifice is needed, only that Jesus is the only worthy one.
 
How is this for an analogy. 'm not trying to belittle the death and resurrection of Jesus but rather get it in more mundane terms for better understanding of the concept.

I give my son Adam a car. I tell him “don’t drive at night”. He drives at night. He gets into a fender bender. I take the car away. After some years Adam has a son, I want to give the car to my grandson. I am still upset that Adam didn’t follow the rules but I love my grandson. The only way I can see clear of this is to corporeally punish my son Adam. I love my son Adam and don’t want to hit him. I love my grandson and don’t want to hit him, it wouldn’t solve my problem with Adam. So I look at my grandson and say this is what I should have done to your father. I’m going to do it to myself and then you can have the car. I smash my finger with a hammer. “See how much I love you grandson, I took the punishment myself.” I hand my grandson the keys.

If you were the grandson wouldn’t you look at your grandfather a bit oddly?
 
davidv said:
A long thoughful meditation on article 1 of the Catechism of the Catholic may provide some insight.
God, infinitely perfect and blessed in himself, in a plan of sheer goodness freely created man to make him share in his own blessed life. For this reason, at every time and in every place, God draws close to man. He calls man to seek him, to know him, to love him with all his strength. He calls together all men, scattered and divided by sin, into the unity of his family, the Church. To accomplish this, when the fullness of time had come, God sent his Son as Redeemer and Savior. In his Son and through him, he invites men to become, in the Holy Spirit, his adopted children and thus heirs of his blessed life.
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Great quote!!!
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jonfawkes said:
How is this for an analogy. 'm not trying to belittle the death and resurrection of Jesus but rather get it in more mundane terms for better understanding of the concept.

I give my son Adam a car. I tell him “don’t drive at night”. He drives at night. He gets into a fender bender. I take the car away. After some years Adam has a son, I want to give the car to my grandson. I am still upset that Adam didn’t follow the rules but I love my grandson. The only way I can see clear of this is to corporeally punish my son Adam. I love my son Adam and don’t want to hit him. I love my grandson and don’t want to hit him, it wouldn’t solve my problem with Adam. So I look at my grandson and say this is what I should have done to your father. I’m going to do it to myself and then you can have the car. I smash my finger with a hammer. “See how much I love you grandson, I took the punishment myself.” I hand my grandson the keys.

If you were the grandson wouldn’t you look at your grandfather a bit oddly?
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I’d have my grandfather admitted to a mental hospital!
 
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