Salvation

[ryanoneil]

Think about salvation as a past, present, and future event.

For in hope we were saved. Now hope that sees for itself is not hope. For who hopes for what one sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait with endurance. (Rom 8:24-25)

We hope because salvation isn’t a certainty.

**The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. (1 Cor. 1:18)

Salvation is a process of perseverance through faith, hope and love.

You will be hated by all because of my name, but whoever endures to the end will be saved. (Matt 10:22)

Hope that helps.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[Craisin]

On the other hand there are those who say that non-christans who perform good works cannot be saved. This is wrong for two reasons. First it denies and limits God’s mercy and power and second it presupposes a full knowledge of a persons heart and faith that we as humans cannot have.

I think I remember learning this, but it was only if the person never heard about Jesus Christ. I remember reading in Romans 2:12-16:

“All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) This will take place on the day when God will judge men’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.”

But if a person first hears and knows about Jesus Christ our Savior but then denies His full humanity and divinity, crucifixion and resurrection, and then continues to do good works apart from faith…would the Catholic Church still consider this person to possibly be saved?

 

[Jon_S]

Jimmy Akin wrote a good article that deals with the topic of invincible ignorance. This should help you with your question:

catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9907chap.asp

 

[guanophore]

That’s also interesting. So the Catholic Church teaches that when a person dies with full faith, they will be assured salvation? However, one does not want to be presumptuous by saying that a person is assured salvation because only God can judge who is and who is not saved.

The Catholic sense of salvation is a state, rather than an event that happens at a particular time in life. I think it is more helpful to think of The River of Life (salvation). We do enter the water at a certain time in this life, and can remain in it, or get out of it. We may stray far away from the River and not find our way back, or we may only wander a short way, then turn again, and get back in. The River is the same, but it is up to us (by God’s grace) to stay in it. God permits us to refuse to get in, and permits us to get out and walk away if we choose.

 

[Pax]

I think I remember learning this, but it was only if the person never heard about Jesus Christ. I remember reading in Romans 2:12-16:

“All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) This will take place on the day when God will judge men’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.”

But if a person first hears and knows about Jesus Christ our Savior but then denies His full humanity and divinity, crucifixion and resurrection, and then continues to do good works apart from faith…would the Catholic Church still consider this person to possibly be saved?

Your scenario implies sufficient knowledge, understanding, and then rejection. In this case a person would not be saved regardless of their works. God is generous in mercy and grace, but He is also perfect in His justice. In the end God knows who is saved, but we do not.

P.S. Craisin, Welcome to the forums. I appreciate your approach and demeanor.

 

[JRKH]

The Catholic sense of salvation is a state, rather than an event that happens at a particular time in life. I think it is more helpful to think of The River of Life (salvation). We do enter the water at a certain time in this life, and can remain in it, or get out of it. We may stray far away from the River and not find our way back, or we may only wander a short way, then turn again, and get back in. The River is the same, but it is up to us (by God’s grace) to stay in it. God permits us to refuse to get in, and permits us to get out and walk away if we choose.

I really Like this analogy.:clapping:
Simple, very visual and easy to understand.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

I think I remember learning this, but it was only if the person never heard about Jesus Christ. I remember reading in Romans 2:12-16:

“All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) This will take place on the day when God will judge men’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.”

But if a person first hears and knows about Jesus Christ our Savior but then denies His full humanity and divinity, crucifixion and resurrection, and then continues to do good works apart from faith…would the Catholic Church still consider this person to possibly be saved?

Pax gave a very good answer to this, so I will only add this:
There are two aspect to acceptance and rejection.
First is the question of knowledge - a person hears and knows. What does that mean? To what extent does one know? If a person hears and rejects without ever accepting is one thing. If one hears, accepts and then denies is another.
In the first case, for instance a person hears a missionary talking, sits and listens for awhile, even asking a question or two, and then declares, “That is just too nuts. I don’t buy this! I’m outa here.” That person has heard, and rejected but is doing so with imperfect knowledge of Jesus. The rejection could be simply due to the missionary’s inability to explain well.
In the second case, where one is baptized (or confirmed) as an adult, with full knowledge and consent of will and then rejects Christ, Judgement will likely be harsh.

Now as to the Church’s view.
Your last line implies that the person in question has not yet died. Therefore that person can still become “saved” or redeemed. No one is judged until after death. Therefore even that person has the opportunity to repent, even on their deathbed, even with their last breath. So the Church may view a person as headed in the wrong direction, or as being outside of communion with the body of Christ, but is unlikely to declare a person lost (as in irretrevable). She, like a loving parent, wants to encourage, advise and instruct the errant child so as to get them back onto the correct path.

Peace
James

 

[angelusm]

Hello everyone,

I am a Protestant looking for some clarity in the Catholic belief of salvation.

First, I’m curious to know if all Catholics believe that Christians can not be certain of his their salvation through Jesus Christ’s atonement sacrafice? Or, do some Catholics believe they can be certain of their salvation?

For those who believe that salvation is not certain, how do Catholics interpret the verse Romans 10: 8 - 11
"But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,“that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, ‘Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame.’”

Thank you!

Salvation is not certain for anybody until the “final moment”.The name of Jesus is often used by people of bad will. Some protestants believe it’s ok to kill Muslims to keep Israel safe. Do you think they will be saved? Not everyone who says :Lord! Lord! will enter the kingdom of God.
If you want to be saved you have to FULLY obey Jesus. As aprotestant you don’t receive Eucharist, you don’t confess your sin, you don’t obey Peter… We have to be either hot or cold, never lukewarm. God bless.

 

[Craisin]

If you want to be saved you have to FULLY obey Jesus. As a protestant you don’t receive Eucharist, you don’t confess your sin, you don’t obey Peter… We have to be either hot or cold, never lukewarm. God bless.

Again, though, as some others were discussing in previously, salvation occurs when you have full knowledge and acceptance of the faith. As a Protestant, we are not taught what the Eucharist means (indeed, although I grew up in a very spiritually dead Catholic Church, I did not understand what the Eucharist was the body and blood to the RCC until 2 years ago!) This being said, I am presently “hearing” what my boyfriend and his priest have to say about the RCC, yet am still waiting to hear from God on all this.

So now I’m confused with the Catholic Church’s view on how they view Protestants in light of salvation. Would you still consider Protestants, who have never even heard of the Eucharist, but knowing very well and having faith in the atoning sacrifice of the crucifixion and also resurrection and ascension of Jesus, to be possibly saved because of this particular faith come their death?

Acts 8:30-35
Then Philip ran up to the chariot and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. “Do you understand what you are reading?” Philip asked.
“How can I,” he said, “unless someone explains it to me?” So he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.
The eunuch was reading this passage of Scripture:
“He was led like a sheep to the slaughter,
and as a lamb before the shearer is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
In his humiliation he was deprived of justice.
Who can speak of his descendants?
For his life was taken from the earth.”
The eunuch asked Philip, “Tell me, please, who is the prophet talking about, himself or someone else?” Then Philip began with that very passage of Scripture and told him the good news about Jesus.

How can we know if there is no one to explain it to us?

 

[Pax]

Many non-Catholics will indeed be saved, but it is more difficult because they are unable to avail themselves of the graces provided by the sacraments, especially penance and the Eucharist.

 

[Orionthehunter]

But if a person first hears and knows about Jesus Christ our Savior but then denies His full humanity and divinity, crucifixion and resurrection, and then continues to do good works apart from faith…would the Catholic Church still consider this person to possibly be saved?

Admission to Eternal Salvation is the exclusive perogative of Jesus Christ. The Catholic Church doesn’t make judgment on the final destination of any soul except those it declares Saints. And, in this case, they only do so because of documented miracles which are a sign from God with regard to this person.

But, if this is a hypothetical question, the Church would say that such a person is not likely in Heaven.