Salvation

[fhansen]

1. Man is saved by grace but not without his cooperation
2. The purpose of grace is to make man perfect as God is perfect (Matt 5:48), holy as He is holy (Peter 1:15-16)- sinless (1 Cor 6:9-10)- in order to enter heaven, i.e. man must fulfill the law to love, simultaneously fulfilling the Law and Prophets –by the Spirit rather than by the flesh.
3. My understanding is that this is opposed to the Reformed view in which man cannot become righteous-at least this side of heaven- and may only achieve salvation by having Christ’s righteousness imputed to him.

So the Catholic position would be that man cannot achieve the perfection necessary to have eternal life without Gods’ aid-the aid or grace lost by Adam when he separated himself, or turned from, God. This “unnatural” separation/mistrust/turned-away-characteristic or proclivity of man might be said to be OS-still operable in each of us.

It seems to me the Reformed position differs from the Catholic in two ways: One is the means of salvation: we’re either saved by grace through faith alone (which should imply expressions of love for God and neighbor but doesn’t necessitate it) or we’re saved by grace through love for God and neighbor (which definitely implies faith as well as necessitates expressions of that love for God and neighbor).

The other, related, difference is the Catholic position that we must be perfected in that love-our wills must be completely in agreement with, or one with, Gods’ will- prior to entrance into heaven-because that’s Gods’ whole purpose from the begininng!

Maybe this is off. Any thoughts/enlightement?

 

[DavidFilmer]

It seems to me the Reformed position differs from the Catholic in two ways: One is the means of salvation: we’re either saved by grace through faith alone

Actually, there were five “solas” of the protestant movement. The founders (Luther, Calvin, etc) accepted both Sola Fide and Sola Gratia (they believed in Grace through Faith). Of course, the Catholic Church has always taught Sola Gratia (and affirmed it again at Trent, and again in CCC 1987-1995).

Of course, Catholics also believe Faith is important, but not sufficient. We believe that faith without works is dead (hmmm - that sounds familiar).

The other, related, difference is the Catholic position that we must be perfected in that love-our wills must be completely in agreement with, or one with, Gods’ will- prior to entrance into heaven

It is true that we must be perfected to enter heaven, but for most folks, that’s what Purgatory is for (so we need not die in a state of perfection - only “good enough”). Of course, protestants don’t recognize Purgatory, and they don’t believe that earthly perfection is even possible, so naturally they believe that “good enough” is good enough, or else heaven would be empty. So we are agreed in effect, but our rationalle is different.

 

[fhansen]

Hi David

It is true that we must be perfected to enter heaven, but for most folks, that’s what Purgatory is for (so we need not die in a state of perfection - only “good enough”). Of course, protestants don’t recognize Purgatory, and they don’t believe that earthly perfection is even possible, so naturally they believe that “good enough” is good enough, or else heaven would be empty. So we are agreed in effect, but our rationalle is different.

Do you think much significance should be placed on this disagreement as to when perfection must be realized, especially as it’s apparently related to or stems from the grace alone/faith alone/imputed righteousness theology?

 

[MarcoPolo]

Do you think much significance should be placed on this disagreement as to when perfection must be realized, especially as it’s apparently related to or stems from the grace alone/faith alone/imputed righteousness theology?

I think your OP is correct as to the essential difference between Reformers and Catholics. Whenever I hear “is it important” or “do you think it’s significant”, I think, “Did God consider it important enough to reveal to His Church?” “Yes.”

If a person recognizes the salvific value of works and sacraments on THIS side of heaven, then of course it is of the utmost importance.

 

[fhansen]

I think your OP is correct as to the essential difference between Reformers and Catholics. Whenever I hear “is it important” or “do you think it’s significant”, I think, “Did God consider it important enough to reveal to His Church?” “Yes.”

If a person recognizes the salvific value of works and sacraments on THIS side of heaven, then of course it is of the utmost importance.

Yes, and I’m not intending to denigrate the Catholic position but seeking to find out what others think about its’ significance-while trying to understand the matter better myself. With Catholics, I sometimes get the impression that many of us are uncertain about the means or definition of salvation. The idea of needing to realize perfection prior to entrance into heaven has, for some, been diluted by the influence of Protestant thinking with such notions as just needing to make Jesus our “personal Lord and Savior”, which the Church wouldn’t disagree with but which is only a part of the picture.

On the other hand our concept of being made holy or perfect can become reduced to a legalistic or mechanistic mindset of obeying the commandments and avoiding death with unconfessed mortal sins, oftentimes based mainly on fear of God’s wrath rather than an awareness of His love and of His desire-His command- that love be the reason behind our fulfillment of the law-that this is our holiness and perfection -and that He’ll be satisfied with nothing less.

 

[MarcoPolo]

You raise valid risks, and point out some of the Church’s poor catechesis this past century. But hopefully we can do our job to show how true the Catholic faith is with the help of each other, and great apologists like Karl Keating or Jimmy Akin, clergy like Father Corapi and his marvelous Catechism series, and all our traditional bishops and wonderful Pope!

 

[fhansen]

You raise valid risks, and point out some of the Church’s poor catechesis this past century. But hopefully we can do our job to show how true the Catholic faith is with the help of each other, and great apologists like Karl Keating or Jimmy Akin, clergy like Father Corapi and his marvelous Catechism series, and all our traditional bishops and wonderful Pope!

Yes, thanks MP. The future of evangelization may well be brighter than it’s ever been.

 

[fbl9]

On the other hand our concept of being made holy or perfect can become reduced to a legalistic or mechanistic mindset of obeying the commandments and avoiding death with unconfessed mortal sins, oftentimes based mainly on fear of God’s wrath rather than an awareness of His love and of His desire-His command- that love be the reason behind our fulfillment of the law-that this is our holiness and perfection -and that He’ll be satisfied with nothing less.

but one needs to be careful as not undermine a fear of God either for as St.Paul said to the church in Rome (Romans11:20-21)"…Be not high minded,but fear 21 For if God did not sprae the natural branches perhaps He will not spare thee either."

 

[fhansen]

but one needs to be careful as not undermine a fear of God either for as St.Paul said to the church in Rome (Romans11:20-21)"…Be not high minded,but fear 21 For if God did not sprae the natural branches perhaps He will not spare thee either."

Yes, this is an important point - to have a healthy fear of the One on whom we depend for our very existence is wisdom-and to recognize His majesty and bow to His infinite superiority is for us to come to recognize and acknowledge the truth of who He is. But without discarding this disposition, I think more emphasis can always be placed on the unwavering trustworthiness of a God who demonstrated the humble heart of a servant -lowering Himself to suffer torture and death in order to prove His love for a world who, as He says in Scripture “hated me without reason”. For me, a shift in thinking of sorts has occurred over time as I’ve realized how true it is that the enmity between man and God was created by man -there simply never was a reason for the mistrust of God which began with that first sin in the garden-a mistrust within mans’ heart that seems to take time to overcome but which can increasingly be replaced with a genuine trust and love as we come, by His grace, to know Him.