Salvation

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johngh

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So I didn’t know exactly where to put this but it is a theology question so I figured I would put it here.

My question is, what exactly does the church say about salvation. I was always under the impression (at least for the 2 1/2 years i’ve been Catholic) that the Church stated that you did not have to be a Catholic or even a believer in God to get into heaven, but that you ultimately had to be a good person. But the other day in an apologetics meeting at my church, some people were saying that in fact the church does not say that. I’ve done research since and read things such as that apparently it’s a dogma that salvation does not exist outside of the Church, that Baptism is mandatory for Salvation, etc. I am getting very confused as to what exactly the Church teaches and would really like some clarification.
 
while we will see jews muslims protastants in heaven if we are told the gosple and do not accept jesus as lord a savior we will not get into heaven as by rejecting christ we reject him who sent christ to us to save us from our sins. those who have never heard the gosple or the name of jesus can get to heave THROUGH NO FALT OF THERE OWN. they must suspect there is god have a heart of charity and be remorsfull for the sins they commited.
 
Now when we say “do not know Christ is the lord” do we mean they do not undestand/believe it, or they literally do not know the idea of it.

Let me rephrase it this way. Say there is a Muslim, Atheist, Buddhist, whatever. They grow up in the modern world where the internet and communications basically make it so knowledge is easily attainable. So they know of the Christian church, they know that Jesus is claimed to be our lord and savior, etc. They know all these things, they just don’t believe them or agree with them. Lets say they are a Muslim and are perfectly happy with their Faith and thus have no inclination to believe Jesus is God. Would that person be capable of Salvation? Or are we saying that when they do not know it’s that they have never been put in a real situation where they would come to understand the Truth?
 
Joining the Catholic Church is necessary for salvation. Outside of the Church there is no salvation. If someone dies outside the Church they are in fact damned. Someone could be united to the Church even though they aren’t a formal member. If they have the virtue of faith. Meaning if they knew the truth they would believe it. However, in my opinion, this a very small minority. Given Jesus’ words in Matthew 7 that the road to salvation is narrow and few will go down it. The road to damnation is wide and many will go down it. It is indeed a very grim prospect for those who aren’t Catholic. All the more reason to evangelize.
 
Rogerteder said:
Joining the Catholic Church is necessary for salvation. Outside of the Church there is no salvation. If someone dies outside the Church they are in fact damned. Someone could be united to the Church even though they aren’t a formal member. If they have the virtue of faith. Meaning if they knew the truth they would believe it. However, in my opinion, this a very small minority. Given Jesus’ words in Matthew 7 that the road to salvation is narrow and few will go down it. The road to damnation is wide and many will go down it. It is indeed a very grim prospect for those who aren’t Catholic. All the more reason to evangelize.
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I’m just not really sure how I feel about this. Coming from a non-religious background, I have always believed that ultimately what God cares much more about is you being a good person. Even if you don’t believe, if you act in a way that is pleasing to God that he would forgive you for your lack of belief. Obviously the Bible seems to contradict that, but I am having a difficult time letting go of that belief. I have met plenty of people that are not Christian that are very good people and the idea that they would go to Hell simply because they are of another Faith just seems…wrong?
 
Rogerteder said:
Joining the Catholic Church is necessary for salvation. Outside of the Church there is no salvation. If someone dies outside the Church they are in fact damned. Someone could be united to the Church even though they aren’t a formal member. If they have the virtue of faith. Meaning if they knew the truth they would believe it. However, in my opinion, this a very small minority. Given Jesus’ words in Matthew 7 that the road to salvation is narrow and few will go down it. The road to damnation is wide and many will go down it. It is indeed a very grim prospect for those who aren’t Catholic. All the more reason to evangelize.
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Over the past 2000 years millions and millions of children have died before reaching the age of reason. Do you imagine only a very small minority of those will be saved?
 
johngh said:
I’m just not really sure how I feel about this. Coming from a non-religious background, I have always believed that ultimately what God cares much more about is you being a good person. Even if you don’t believe, if you act in a way that is pleasing to God that he would forgive you for your lack of belief. Obviously the Bible seems to contradict that, but I am having a difficult time letting go of that belief. I have met plenty of people that are not Christian that are very good people and the idea that they would go to Hell simply because they are of another Faith just seems…wrong?
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Scripture contrasts belief (in God) with disobedience. We know that those who claim to believe but disobey are in serious trouble. The Church seems to allow us to conclude that those who do not believe (depending on the reasons for their disbelief, of course) but who obey God’s law which is written on every human heart (that would roughly involve being “very good people”), may be saved. May be saved before many a priest or bishop, for that matter.
 
Rogerteder said:
Joining the Catholic Church is necessary for salvation. Outside of the Church there is no salvation. If someone dies outside the Church they are in fact damned. .
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As long as you agree with the Catechism:
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
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Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.
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diggerdomer said:
As long as you agree with the Catechism:
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See i’m getting confused on what this whole “knowing” means. Do we mean knows as in they have heard that Jesus is the son of God and the savior? Because it’s hard to imagine anyone in the modern world that does not “know” that. Or is it they do not know as in they are not convinced? But wouldn’t that just be anyone that’s not Christian?
 
johngh said:
See i’m getting confused on what this whole “knowing” means. Do we mean knows as in they have heard that Jesus is the son of God and the savior? Because it’s hard to imagine anyone in the modern world that does not “know” that. Or is it they do not know as in they are not convinced? But wouldn’t that just be anyone that’s not Christian?
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I don’t think it simply means having an awareness; you’re right, it’s hard to conceive that the majority of non-Catholics have never heard of Jesus Christ and the claims Catholics profess about Him. I take “knowing” as meaning faith in Christ AND the Church, and all Catholics believe about both. “Church” here, too, is not equivalent to “Christians,” it’s more restrictive (e.g. the Catholic Church refers to most non-Catholic Christians, formally, as members of “ecclesial communities” or somesuch. Helpful?
 
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