Salvation ?

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the_hazel_nut

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I need help understanding salvation in Catholicism. I had a protestant friend ask me if Catholics believe that you need to have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ to achieve salvation. I was so flustered, the question confused me quite a bit. I don’t think I gave a very good answer. She also wanted to know if Catholics believed in works for salvation, and I said no.

I don’t know how to explain what is needed for someone to achieve salvation in Catholicism. As far as I know it includes baptism (including baptism of desire), repentance of mortal sins to a priest (or perfect contrition), but I also know that non-catholics can go to heaven, so I would like an explanation of how that is possible. Our conversation got cut off and I think this girl wants to talk to me again. Scriptural evidence would be really great :o sorry if this question is really obvious.
 
Of course we need to have a deep prayer relationship and trust in Jesus.
Get her to define “personal relationship”, by the way, it isn’t a scriptural phrase.
Jesus tells us to love God above all and others as ourselves. He tells us to follow Him, therefore we need a good understanding of the gospels, we need a genuine prayer life, and we need to actively live the love Jesus teaches and commands.

I don’t have a lot of time right now, but what I have described leads to and provides a personal relationship with Jesus, which is a catchy phrase but isn’t clear. Ask her to define “personal relationship”, by the way, obviously is isn’t having coffee with but is living as I described above, and of course we must.

Read if you can, Matthew 25 verses 31-46, in which Jesus clearly demonstrates that faith and works, ie, practical acts of kindness, are necessary for salvation. There are a great many scriptural texts I can quote, as well as from other authoritative sources, but as I’m limited to time just now, others’ replies can help to fill in what is lacking for your answer.
 
Faith and good works are necessary for salvation, scripture teaches and the Catholic Church believes

“Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption; but he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. And let us not grow weary in well-doing, for in due season we shall reap, if we do not lose heart.” [Galatians 6:7-9] "Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. Phil 2:12-13

Take the case, my brothers of someone who has never done a single good act but claims that he has faith. Will that faith save him? If one of the brothers or one of the sisters is in need of clothes and has not enough food to live on, and one of you says to them, ‘I wish you well; keep yourself warm and eat plenty’, without giving them these bare necessities of llife, then what good is that?: if good works do not go with it, it is quite dead.
This is the way to talk to people of that kind:'You say you have faith and I have good deeds; I will prove to you that I have faith by showing you my good deeds–now you prove to me that you have faith without any good deeds to show.

You believe in one God–that is creditable enough, but the demons have the same belief, and they tremble with fear. Do realise, you senseless man, that faith without works is useless. You surely know that Abraham our Father was justified by his deed, because he offered Isaac on the altar? There you see it; faith and good deeds were working together; his faith became perfect by what he did. This is what scripture really means when it says: Abraham put his faith in God, and this was counted as making him justified; and that is why he was called the friend of God. You see now that it is by doing something good, and not only by believing, that a man is justified." [James 2: 14-24]
 
Trishie said:
Faith and good works are necessary for salvation, scripture teaches and the Catholic Church believes
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Thank you for your posts. I really was going to ask her to define “personal relationship with Jesus Christ” because it is not a biblical phrase.

But I don’t understand what you mean. I think that is what those bible quotes are saying. However, I really thought that confessing mortal sin was what is necessary, not good works. I just don’t understand how it fits. If you repent on your death bed, you go to heaven without having done any good works, right? Sort of like the thief on the cross?
 
Yes a “personal relationship” with Jesus is very important. Get Father Larry Richards CD TRUTH at www.thereasonforourhope.com he explains very well our need for a personal relationship.

We believe in works, as Jesus embraced works. We do not believe that works alone will provide salvation, but they cannot be ignored, as Jesus embraced both works and faith. Peter Kreeft in his CD 7 REASONS WHY EVERYONE SHOULD BE CATHOLIC illustrates that it is the protestants who have, in error separated “faith and works”, the Catholics have always believed that Jesus wants us to have both, as HE had both.

Also, get her Scott Hahns conversion story on CD at www.salvationhistory.com

Good Luck
 
Remember too, works aren’t always what they seem to be. Our faith is dead if we don’t live our faith. Good works can be everything from volunteering in a homeless shelter, to being a good example of a devout Catholic. To me, even just being well informed and answering that woman’s questions kindly,. patiently, and with the grace of a good Catholic is a work.

Good Works isn’t just charity and deeds. it’s your actions, your prayers, your willingness to share God with everyone
 
the_hazel_nut said:
Thank you for your posts. I really was going to ask her to define “personal relationship with Jesus Christ” because it is not a biblical phrase.

But I don’t understand what you mean. I think that is what those bible quotes are saying. However, I really thought that confessing mortal sin was what is necessary, not good works. I just don’t understand how it fits. If you repent on your death bed, you go to heaven without having done any good works, right? Sort of like the thief on the cross?
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Someone, who through the grace of the Holy Spirit, finds faith in his deathbed would never have had the opportunity to do good works as a Christian (except perhaps for testifying about his faith for a short time), so the lack of good works would be excused. But someone who claims to believe and fails to do any good works during a lifetime, obviously never did believe and he cannot fool God. That is why the Catholic Church and the Bible make perfect sense and Sola Fides makes none.
 
We are saved by Jesus Christ.

This occurs initially by grace through faith and baptism.

( now I should add the then by the grace of God one needs to remain living * in Christ*…and die as a Christian in Christ…in a state of Grace…there are various aspects to the question …here are some older files of Jimmy Akin…he would prob do better now…they are early…but he keeps them up warts and all for the his older files are still good cin.org/users/james/files/pastpres.htm cin.org/users/james/questions/q022.htm )

It can happen that some have faith and never get to baptism…(they can be killed for example or not have anyone to baptize them …or not know they need to…though this can thus be a baptism blood or desire)

It can happen that a person has faith infused for the first time in baptism…

It all depends on from what aspect we look at the question…

In early Church – most converts were older and thus heard the proclamation of the Gospel and had faith (by grace of course)…and then were baptized. Some it seems were infants (whole households were baptized as we see in Acts) and were baptized into the faith of the Church and thus faith was infused into them for the first time at baptism…

today with many children being born into Christian homes …it happens the other way around…most receive the faith at baptism and increase in it as they live more and more in Christ. Some are baptized at an older stage and so likely first have faith from hearing the Gospel. all is via grave. all is by the Holy Spirit…

Yes we need to follow Jesus Christ…and know him very personally but this developes…
Jesus can save an infant or a child who as of yet does not even know his name…and Jesus can also save a person who through no fault never hears his name (if they are saved they are still saved by Jesus…)…

But yes as Christians we need to follow Jesus of Nazareth and know him and love him…personally…

And as Pope Benedict XVI noted in his Audiences on Paul:

“We are only Christians if we encounter Christ. Of course, he does not show himself to us in this overwhelming, luminous way, as he did to Paul to make him the Apostle to all peoples. But we too can encounter Christ in reading Sacred Scripture, in prayer, in the liturgical life of the Church. We can touch Christ’s Heart and feel him touching ours. Only in this personal relationship with Christ, only in this encounter with the Risen One do we truly become Christians.”

(Of course he is not meaning that the baptized child is not a Christian…of course he is…for he has encountered Christ in Baptism…it is Christ who baptizes…and this encounter is to develop with time…)

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20080903_en.html

All is from Jesus Christ and from his death and resurrection!

We are saved by Jesus Christ!

“Happy are you who believe!” (cf 1 Peter 2:7). Let us turn to Jesus! He alone is the way that leads to eternal happiness, the truth who satisfies the deepest longings of every heart, and the life who brings ever new joy and hope, to us and to our world."
~Homily at Yankee Stadium by Pope Benedict XVI
 
Bookcat said:
Justification in Paul

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2006/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20061108_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081119_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081126_en.html
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Okay thank you for the links, I read all of them and your following post. That makes a lot of sense. Maybe my explanation wasn’t that bad, it was sort of along those lines, but I stumbled over it lol. Thanks everyone.

So I guess we can describe repenting of mortal sins as part of the relationship with Jesus/ works of love and charity?

But why does not repenting of them put our soul in danger? I know why, but in the context of faith + works.
 
the_hazel_nut said:
Okay thank you for the links, I read all of them and your following post. That makes a lot of sense. Maybe my explanation wasn’t that bad, it was sort of along those lines, but I stumbled over it lol. Thanks everyone.

So I guess we can describe repenting of mortal sins as part of the relationship with Jesus/ works of love and charity?

But why does not repenting of them put our soul in danger? I know why, but in the context of faith + works.
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Just added some to the last post…
 
the_hazel_nut said:
So I guess we can describe repenting of mortal sins as part of the relationship with Jesus/ works of love and charity?

But why does not repenting of them put our soul in danger? I know why, but in the context of faith + works.
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Lets take an unbaptized adult.

He will need to repent of his sins…believe in Jesus Christ and be baptized…

if he later commits a mortal sin…he will need to repent and return to Jesus …via confession (if he can not get there…perfect contrition out of love) …and Jesus will put him back in that state of grace…the life that he had given him and that the person had cut himself off from by his mortal sin…

So yes if the person does not return to Jesus (the return is itself a grace from him…but if he says no…well…that is a problem) via repentance …he is in danger cause he can die away from Jesus…not living in Christ

One can say too that Faith is of course involved too in confession…and of course we do not* earn our forgiveness* in confession…it is Jesus who absolves ours sins…just as it is Jesus who baptizes us…and contrition itself is a grace…even the repentance…

As St. Therese put it* Tout est grace*. Everything is grace…

All is from the Blood of the Lamb shed on the cross…

A grace …a work of God.

all from Jesus Christ the Risen Lord.

but yes there too is the aspect that While God created us without us…but he will not save us without us…God does involve us 🙂 He gives us the dignity of being involved…(even though it is still a gift and as Jesus said “apart from me you can do nothing”…) there is much more to this…but I think we have sounded out some of what at question.
 
Okay, thanks, I think I understand… so salvation is repentance, faith, baptism, and then living a life in Christ (including works of love, and a personal relationship with Him), all of which involves His grace and our free will? Sorry if I’m so confused :confused:
 
I am more more of the opinion that not only is there no salvation outside the Church, but there is scarce little in it either. The simple fact is that if your are a living Catholic, you cannot know that you are saved, being saved, or will be saved. To say otherwise is a sin (presumption) that could lead to your eternal damnation. Within the context of the Church the best one can do is hope and pray and try to attend Mass, and confession daily where possible, and devote one’s entire life to Corporal and Spiritual acts of Mercy (good works), whilst also cultivating a spirit of utter detachment from all subjective, physical, personal, pleasures.

The Catholic ideal, if I may be so bold, seems to be that we should be just as perservering, pious, charitable, and loving, as Jesus was, only without the benefit of the supernatural certainty and comfort Jesus no doubt received from the plain evidences of his divinity (i.e. the voice at his Baptism, His physical transfiguration, and His obvious power to control nature, heal the sick, and raise the dead, transmute water, produce food for thousands of people ex nihilo etc…).

Perhaps this is what the Lord meant when he said “Even more blessed are they who have not seen and yet have believed.”
 
HereticalTheist said:
The simple fact is that if your are a living Catholic, you cannot know that you are saved, being saved, or will be saved. To say otherwise is a sin (presumption) that could lead to your eternal damnation.
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Nope not the case.

For one can have a kind of moral certainty. The certainty of hope. Knowing Jesus Christ.

Yes of course one does not have *absolute certainty *…even Paul said he was not conscious of anything but was not for reason in the clear…for God is the judge…

We could walk away …for we have free will…and yes we do no know the future. We could deny Jesus (as Paul put if we deny him he will deny us…of course Jesus himself said this in the Gospels) or commit some other mortal sin and refuse the grace of repentance and die that way…tis possible.

However …as a Christian our hope is in Jesus Christ!

So by his grace I will continue to do as Paul and Jesus tells us…remain in him

And thus have the confident assurance of hope!

The same that one fines in the letters of Paul and the rest of the New Testament! What they say …we still say.
 
the_hazel_nut,

I think that you have been given some excellent material. If you get into an extended discussion and need more help, make sure you come back and get some additional information.

I have only a couple of points to add to the discussion:
  1. Whenever you discuss your faith with someone, always do so with enthusiasm and love of the Lord. Incorporate statements along those lines within the discussion. Remember, you are giving witness to the hope that is within you[1 Peter 3:15].
  2. Always say a prayer to the Holy Spirit for guidance prior to your discussions.
  3. Redirect the conversation to Jesus Christ present in the Eucharist. This is where we are in the closest possible personal relationship with Jesus this side of eternity. In doing this you must be prepared to explain why the Catholic teaching on the Eucharist is the correct one. If you need a strong presentation on this, feel free to PM me with your email address and I will send you a very effective presentation on the true presence in a word type file.
God bless.
 
I’m sorry if this post gave you that impression, hereticaltheist. 😦
HereticalTheist said:
I am more more of the opinion that not only is there no salvation outside the Church, but there is scarce little in it either.
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This is not what we have been saying at all. Especially if you mean outside of the visible Catholic church. I don’t want to give you the impression that I think that is true.
The simple fact is that if your are a living Catholic, you cannot know that you are saved, being saved, or will be saved. To say otherwise is a sin (presumption) that could lead to your eternal damnation.
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I see people on this board all the time saying “I am saved, I am being saved, I will be saved” or something along those lines. We say that instead of “I am saved” in the sense that we don’t believe there is one moment where you believe in Jesus and are therefore saved forever. We believe that it is possible to sever the relationship with Jesus via mortal sin, and repentance is there to repair the relationship.
Within the context of the Church the best one can do is hope and pray and try to attend Mass, and confession daily where possible, and devote one’s entire life to Corporal and Spiritual acts of Mercy (good works), whilst also cultivating a spirit of utter detachment from all subjective, physical, personal, pleasures.
Click to expand...
The Catholic ideal, if I may be so bold, seems to be that we should be just as perservering, pious, charitable, and loving, as Jesus was, only without the benefit of the supernatural certainty and comfort Jesus no doubt received from the plain evidences of his divinity (i.e. the voice at his Baptism, His physical transfiguration, and His obvious power to control nature, heal the sick, and raise the dead, transmute water, produce food for thousands of people ex nihilo etc…).
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That would certainly be an ideal, but its not required to be as holy as Jesus to be saved :rolleyes: because that is not possible. And daily confession? :eek: Only a very few people do that… and it is certainly not necessary becuase people do not commit mortal sin daily. (if your sin is that habitual it’s most likely out of your control and therefore not mortal)

You do not need to detach yourself from worldly pleasures, unless the pleasure is sinful.
Perhaps this is what the Lord meant when he said “Even more blessed are they who have not seen and yet have believed.”
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I thought that meant people who have not seen Jesus and yet believe in him, what does it mean to you?
 
Pax said:
the_hazel_nut,

I think that you have been given some excellent material. If you get into an extended discussion and need more help, make sure you come back and get some additional information.

I have only a couple of points to add to the discussion:
  1. Whenever you discuss your faith with someone, always do so with enthusiasm and love of the Lord. Incorporate statements along those lines within the discussion. Remember, you are giving witness to the hope that is within you[1 Peter 3:15].
  2. Always say a prayer to the Holy Spirit for guidance prior to your discussions.
  3. Redirect the conversation to Jesus Christ present in the Eucharist. This is where we are in the closest possible personal relationship with Jesus this side of eternity. In doing this you must be prepared to explain why the Catholic teaching on the Eucharist is the correct one. If you need a strong presentation on this, feel free to PM me with your email address and I will send you a very effective presentation on the true presence in a word type file.
God bless.
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Thank you so much! 🙂
 
Bookcat said:
Nope not the case.

For one can have a kind of moral certainty. The certainty of hope. Knowing Jesus Christ.
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All respect but if I am hoping for something then I cannot ***ex hypothesi *** be certain of it…and conversely, if I am certain of something I cannot ex hypothesi hope for it. Furthermore, apart from deep personal mystic revelation (like St. Theresa of Avil) it is not likely that I or any other living human being catholic or not will have indefeasible knowledge of Jesus Christ. In fact I would say the vast majority of Christian at best hope that they know Christ.

So pardon me if I find your thinking here more than a little perplexing.
 
the_hazel_nut said:
Okay, thanks, I think I understand… so salvation is repentance, faith, baptism, and then living a life in Christ (including works of love, and a personal relationship with Him), all of which involves His grace and our free will? Sorry if I’m so confused :confused:
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It can be confusing…cause the various terms etc are used in several ways both in Scripture and outside.

But yes…you got it. Remaining in Christ in living Charity…is yes certainly a part of it…

Salvation is being in Christ and living in him…remaining in him. He has us…and no one can take us from him…but our own free will in deciding to leave him and not respond to the grace of God and his offer of life again…to the end.

We are saved…we are being saved…and we hope with the certainty of hope to be saved.

Read Jimmy Akin’s links I put in the first post.
 
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