Salvation ?

[Bookcat]

All respect but if I am hoping for something then I cannot ***ex hypothesi *** be certain of it…and conversely, if I am certain of something I cannot ex hypothesi hope for it. Furthermore, apart from deep personal mystic revelation (like St. Theresa of Avil) it is not likely that I or any other living human being catholic or not will have indefeasible knowledge of Jesus Christ. In fact I would say the vast majority of Christian at best hope that they know Christ.

So pardon me if I find your thinking here more than a little perplexing.

On cannot even know the future.

One cannot know if one will turn away from Christ or not.

One cannot know this in other areas of life either…with absolute certainty…that ones kids will not commit a crime…that one will live to an old age…that one will not die on your way home from work in your car…that you will not one day loose your mind…

all sorts of unknowns in life…

God does not give us normally the certainty of absolute assurance …

but the hope that he gives us is no small hope…
*
It is the certainty of hope in Jesus Christ!*

 

[HereticalTheist]

I’m sorry if this post gave you that impression, hereticaltheist.

This is not what we have been saying at all. Especially if you mean outside of the visible Catholic church. I don’t want to give you the impression that I think that is true.

I see people on this board all the time saying “I am saved, I am being saved, I will be saved” or something along those lines. We say that instead of “I am saved” in the sense that we don’t believe there is one moment where you believe in Jesus and are therefore saved forever. We believe that it is possible to sever the relationship with Jesus via mortal sin, and repentance is there to repair the relationship.

That would certainly be an ideal, but its not required to be as holy as Jesus to be saved because that is not possible. And daily confession? Only a very few people do that… and it is certainly not necessary becuase people do not commit mortal sin daily. (if your sin is that habitual it’s most likely out of your control and therefore not mortal)

You do not need to detach yourself from worldly pleasures, unless the pleasure is sinful.

I thought that meant people who have not seen Jesus and yet believe in him, what does it mean to you?/QUOTE

All worldly pleasures are potentially near occasions of sin. The catholic must avoid even the near occasion of sin (let alone the sin). Therefore, if the Catholic values her souls, she should seek to avoid all worldly pleasure in so far as humanly possible. Is this not so?

 

[HereticalTheist]

On cannot even know the future.

One cannot know if one will turn away from Christ or not.

One cannot know this in other areas of life either…with absolute certainty…that ones kids will not commit a crime…that one will live to an old age…that one will not die on your way home from work in your car…that you will not one day loose your mind…

all sorts of unknowns in life…

God does not give us normally the certainty of absolute assurance …

but the hope that he gives us is no small hope…
*
It is the certainty of hope in Jesus Christ!*

Simply repeating what you said before is not helping me get clearer as to your meaning. What is this “certainty of hope”…explain it to me as you would to a small child…what do you take yourself to be saying when you utter these words? If you cannot explain it clearly, then it is just empty rhetoric…which is what I was driving at above.

 

[Bookcat]

From Pope Benedict XVI’s Encylical on Christian Hope:

1. It is not science that redeems man: man is redeemed by love. This applies even in terms of this present world. When someone has the experience of a great love in his life, this is a moment of “redemption” which gives a new meaning to his life. But soon he will also realize that the love bestowed upon him cannot by itself resolve the question of his life. It is a love that remains fragile. It can be destroyed by death. The human being needs unconditional love. He needs the certainty which makes him say: “neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Rom 8:38- 39). If this absolute love exists, with its absolute certainty, then—only then—is man “redeemed”, whatever should happen to him in his particular circumstances. This is what it means to say: Jesus Christ has “redeemed” us. Through him we have become certain of God, a God who is not a remote “first cause” of the world, because his only-begotten Son has become man and of him everyone can say: “I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me” (Gal 2:20).
2. In this sense it is true that anyone who does not know God, even though he may entertain all kinds of hopes, is ultimately without hope, without the great hope that sustains the whole of life (cf. Eph 2:12). Man’s great, true hope which holds firm in spite of all disappointments can only be God—God who has loved us and who continues to love us “to the end,” until all “is accomplished” (cf. Jn 13:1 and 19:30). Whoever is moved by love begins to perceive what “life” really is. He begins to perceive the meaning of the word of hope that we encountered in the Baptismal Rite: from faith I await “eternal life”—the true life which, whole and unthreatened, in all its fullness, is simply life. Jesus, who said that he had come so that we might have life and have it in its fullness, in abundance (cf. Jn 10:10), has also explained to us what “life” means: “this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent” (Jn 17:3). Life in its true sense is not something we have exclusively in or from ourselves: it is a relationship. And life in its totality is a relationship with him who is the source of life. If we are in relation with him who does not die, who is Life itself and Love itself, then we are in life. Then we “live”.

 

[HereticalTheist]

From Pope Benedict XVI’s Encylical on Christian Hope:

1. It is not science that redeems man: man is redeemed by love. This applies even in terms of this present world. When someone has the experience of a great love in his life, this is a moment of “redemption” which gives a new meaning to his life. But soon he will also realize that the love bestowed upon him cannot by itself resolve the question of his life. It is a love that remains fragile. It can be destroyed by death. The human being needs unconditional love. He needs the certainty which makes him say: “neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Rom 8:38- 39). If this absolute love exists, with its absolute certainty, then—only then—is man “redeemed”, whatever should happen to him in his particular circumstances. This is what it means to say: Jesus Christ has “redeemed” us. Through him we have become certain of God, a God who is not a remote “first cause” of the world, because his only-begotten Son has become man and of him everyone can say: “I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me” (Gal 2:20).
2. In this sense it is true that anyone who does not know God, even though he may entertain all kinds of hopes, is ultimately without hope, without the great hope that sustains the whole of life (cf. Eph 2:12). Man’s great, true hope which holds firm in spite of all disappointments can only be God—God who has loved us and who continues to love us “to the end,” until all “is accomplished” (cf. Jn 13:1 and 19:30). Whoever is moved by love begins to perceive what “life” really is. He begins to perceive the meaning of the word of hope that we encountered in the Baptismal Rite: from faith I await “eternal life”—the true life which, whole and unthreatened, in all its fullness, is simply life. Jesus, who said that he had come so that we might have life and have it in its fullness, in abundance (cf. Jn 10:10), has also explained to us what “life” means: “this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent” (Jn 17:3). Life in its true sense is not something we have exclusively in or from ourselves: it is a relationship. And life in its totality is a relationship with him who is the source of life. If we are in relation with him who does not die, who is Life itself and Love itself, then we are in life. Then we “live”.

Did I not ask you to please explain your “certainty of hope” as you would explain it to a small child?

Do you typically explain things to small children by cutting and pasting into your conversations lengthy and subtle quotes from Papal Encyclicals? If so, you either have some very smart, or very confused, children around you!.

Unfortunately these passages do nothing to assuage the epistemic problem I pointed out above. For how can we know that we are in any wise in “relation” to Jesus Christ in the first place? The best we can do is to hope that are, and have faith that we are, and believe that we are despite the fact that we may, for all anyone knows in this world, not be, after all Jesus may not even exist and this could all be in our own deluded heads. Thus I ask again what do you, Bookcat, personally mean when you speak of “certainty of hope”. Or is this just empty rhetoric on your part?

 

[the_hazel_nut]

All worldly pleasures are potentially near occasions of sin. The catholic must avoid even the near occasion of sin (let alone the sin). Therefore, if the Catholic values her souls, she should seek to avoid all worldly pleasure in so far as humanly possible. Is this not so?

Any situation in the world is something where the possibility of sinning is present, whether its pleasurable or not. Going to school isn’t a worldly pleasure for me but it is a situation where it is possible for me to cheat on a test.

Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but I think a near occasion of sin is something that is a situation where it could easily lead you, personally, into grave sin. You should avoid it if possible.

For an example, if someone is an alcoholic, having one beer is not a sin but it is a near occasion of sin becuase it could very easily lead them into getting drunk which is grave sin (it may not be a mortal sin however becuase of their addiction). Having a few drinks is not a near occasion of sin for everyone, becuase not everyone is very temped to get drunk.

 

[HereticalTheist]

Any situation in the world is something where the possibility of sinning is present, whether its pleasurable or not. Going to school isn’t a worldly pleasure for me but it is a situation where it is possible for me to cheat on a test.

Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but I think a near occasion of sin is something that is a situation where it could easily lead you, personally, into grave sin. You should avoid it if possible.

For an example, if someone is an alcoholic, having one beer is not a sin but it is a near occasion of sin becuase it could very easily lead them into getting drunk which is grave sin (it may not be a mortal sin however becuase of their addiction). Having a few drinks is not a near occasion of sin for everyone, becuase not everyone is very temped to get drunk.

However, to be on the safe side, alcoholism or no, isn’t it better to be a teetotaler as thus avoid even the chance of liking that first drink too much and later down the road avoiding a sun that could lead you to Hell? I know some people will call that a slippery slop argument, but for the sake of your soul shouldn’t you rather seek to avoid all pleasure as much as possible (except of course the spiritual pleasures of worship, prayer, self-denial, suffering etc). Why risk your immortal soul to enjoy a beer in the first place?

 

[the_hazel_nut]

However, to be on the safe side, alcoholism or no, isn’t it better to be a teetotaler as thus avoid even the chance of liking that first drink too much and later down the road avoiding a sun that could lead you to Hell? I know some people will call that a slippery slop argument, but for the sake of your soul shouldn’t you rather seek to avoid all pleasure as much as possible (except of course the spiritual pleasures of worship, prayer, self-denial, suffering etc). Why risk your immortal soul to enjoy a beer in the first place?

You can if you want to, but the church does not require this of you. Denying yourself every earthly pleasure for the rest of your life does not fall under avoiding near occasion of sin, as far as I understand it.

If you put yourself in a near occasion of sin, it is not a sin… but it is something you should avoid anyway. Avoiding near occasion of sin is not some sort of requirement for salvation.

 

[HereticalTheist]

You can if you want to, but the church does not require this of you. Denying yourself every earthly pleasure for the rest of your life does not fall under avoiding near occasion of sin, as far as I understand it.

If you put yourself in a near occasion of sin, it is not a sin… but it is something you should avoid anyway. Avoiding near occasion of sin is not some sort of requirement for salvation.

In order to be saved a Catholic must avoid sin at all cost (with the help of Christ). In order to avoid sin, a Catholic must avoid any near occasions of sin (why risk it). In order to avoid any near occasions of sin, a Catholic must take care not to engage in worldly pleasures for their own sake (since such pleasure clearly lead one to sin). Thus it seems straightforwardly the case that the best and most practical course of action, if one is Catholic and desire salvation, is to cultivate an attitude of utter detachment from all worldy pleasure. Why risk your salvation for a second ( possibly gluttonous) helping of potatoes?

 

[Bookcat]

If you put yourself in a near occasion of sin, it is not a sin… but it is something you should avoid anyway. Avoiding near occasion of sin is not some sort of requirement for salvation.

Actually it can be sin…but that is when it is a *near occasion of sin * in the sense of mortal sins…one is obliged to ordinary occasions of sin…they are well…all over the earth…

but having a beer for a normal person is NOT a near occasion of sin.

 

[HereticalTheist]

Actually it can be sin…but that is when it is a *near occasion of sin * in the sense of mortal sins…one is obliged to ordinary occasions of sin…they are well…all over the earth…

but having a beer for a normal person is NOT a near occasion of sin.

This is nitpicky…but there is really no such things as “a normal person”. To be sure, statistically it is unlikely that I (now 35 and never even an occasionally heavy drinker (I’ve been buzzed maybe 4 times in my life, and I have had less than one full bottle of beer to drink in nearly the last year) would be tempted to drunkness or alcoholism by a single bear. But I am not a statistic, I am a person, and I don’t know my own dispositions. So why risk having even the one beer? Isn’t utter abstinence from physical pleasure the safer, better, and more noble route? If I fear for my eternal soul (and who doesn’t) shouldn’t I shun all subjective physical pleasures, counting them as nothing!

 

[Bookcat]

As Paul puts it…if we hold fast…if we continue in Christ…

Now I would remind you, brethren, in what terms I preached to you the gospel, which you received, in which you stand, by which you are saved, if you hold it fast…(1 Corinthians 15:1-2)

And you, who once were estranged and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and irreproachable before him, provided that you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel which you heard …(Colossians 1:21-23)

but if not…

If one remains in mortal sin etc…one will not inherit the Kingdom of God…

Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor sexual perverts, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

and

If any one does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his own family, he has disowned the faith and is worse than an unbeliever. 1 tim 5;8

as 2 Peter puts it…

For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first…(2 Peter 2:20-22)

so one can fall away…

But my hope is in Jesus Christ. He is my anchor… my hope. I know that I am weak and could fall away…but if by his grace I cling to him or return to him should I fall…that He is my salvation and I have life in him. Thus he is my Hope. Being in him I havelifeand he comes looking for me as the Good shepherd should I fall in a pit…

 

[HereticalTheist]

As Paul puts it…if we hold fast…if we continue in Christ…

Now I would remind you, brethren, in what terms I preached to you the gospel, which you received, in which you stand, by which you are saved, if you hold it fast…(1 Corinthians 15:1-2)

And you, who once were estranged and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and irreproachable before him, provided that you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel which you heard …(Colossians 1:21-23)

but if not…

If one remains in mortal sin etc…one will not inherit the Kingdom of God…

Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor sexual perverts, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

and

If any one does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his own family, he has disowned the faith and is worse than an unbeliever. 1 tim 5;8

as 2 Peter puts it…

For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first…(2 Peter 2:20-22)

so one can fall away…

But my hope is in Jesus Christ. He is my anchor… my hope. I know that I am weak and could fall away…but if by his grace I cling to him or return to him should I fall…that He is my salvation and I have life in him. Thus he is my Hope. Being in him I havelifeand he comes looking for me as the Good shepherd should I fall in a pit…

So then all this talk of “certainty of hope” is really just empty rhetoric right? You have no certainty whatsoever about your salvation (or the future), nor anything approaching certainty! What you do have is hope. That’s good, people need hope. Of course the thing about hope is that it is frequently, if not constantly, misplaced.

 

[the_hazel_nut]

This is nitpicky…but there is really no such things as “a normal person”. To be sure, statistically it is unlikely that I (now 35 and never even an occasionally heavy drinker (I’ve been buzzed maybe 4 times in my life, and I have had less than one full bottle of beer to drink in nearly the last year) would be tempted to drunkness or alcoholism by a single bear. But I am not a statistic, I am a person, and I don’t know my own dispositions. So why risk having even the one beer? Isn’t utter abstinence from physical pleasure the safer, better, and more noble route? If I fear for my eternal soul (and who doesn’t) shouldn’t I shun all subjective physical pleasures, counting them as nothing!

We have to discern whether something is a near occasion of sin or not.

Jesus doesn’t require us to be perfect and never engage in earthly pleasure. The church does not even imply that we avoid all earthly pleasure (for example:sex within marriage is a blessing from God… it’s not something to be avoided…)

Sorry, but I don’t see how this is the message of Catholicism, at all. Avoiding near occasion of sin does not mean avoiding all earthly pleasure as I have already state… therefore that is not what the church is telling us to do.

 

[HereticalTheist]

We have to discern whether something is a near occasion of sin or not.

Jesus doesn’t require us to be perfect and never engage in earthly pleasure. The church does not even imply that we avoid all earthly pleasure (for example:sex within marriage is a blessing from God… it’s not something to be avoided…)

Sorry, but I don’t see how this is the message of Catholicism, at all. Avoiding near occasion of sin does not mean avoiding all earthly pleasure as I have already state… therefore that is not what the church is telling us to do.

Actually sexual pleasure for the sake of sexual pleasure in marriage is something that many Catholics (especially Ron Conte) on these boards, have said should be avoided. Catholic spouse are to be chaste in the marital relations, and they should only see to pleasure the other and never themselves and the should never engage in foreplay or eroticism in any fashion except that they proceed from there to intervaginal ejaculation.

Furthermore, correct me if I am wrong but didn’t Jesus say “Be ye perfect…”?
How is that not a requirement of perfection? And then there is the implicit demand for perfection. After all, the Catholic can lead a perfectly chaste, devout, secluded, life and then have occasion to sin mortally and die seconds later, resulting in their eternal damnation.

As I see it, the pressure to be morally perfect at all times in Catholicism is far far far greater than in any protestant denomination.

 

[Bookcat]

Jesus Christ is our hope and our salvation.

As Paul put it if one is in Christ he is a new creation…and there is no condemnation for him…

But of course one must remain living in Him (and of course he is in us…he has given us his Holy Spirit who is the down payment as it were of our future life (Ep 1:14)…we are given in the Spirit too that we may abound in hope (Rm 15:13).)

Yes one can walk away…we have free will. Yes Jesus desires to give us life again if we do…yes one can repent…but yes one cannot trust in oneself…one can fall…but rather one puts ones hope in Jesus Christ and he his heart is very merciful …he came for the sinner…and if one of his flock strays …he his mercy is there

…but he will not force him …

Our Hope is Jesus Christ…it is a the certainty of hope…for we know in whom is our hope and he is more certain than anything created…

No need to respond…cause we know you will just say it is rhetoric again.

But it is not …it is rather Hope and Faith…

and experience in Knowing Christ Jesus my Lord and his love.

 

[HereticalTheist]

Jesus Christ is our hope and our salvation.

As Paul put it if one is in Christ he is a new creation…and there is no condemnation for him…

But of course one must remain living in Him (and of course he is in us…he has given us his Holy Spirit who is the down payment as it were of our future life (Ep 1:14)…we are given in the Spirit too that we may abound in hope (Rm 15:13).)

Yes one can walk away…we have free will. Yes Jesus desires to give us life again if we do…yes one can repent…but yes one cannot trust in oneself…one can fall…but rather one puts ones hope in Jesus Christ and he his heart is very merciful …he came for the sinner…and if one of his flock strays …he his mercy is there

…but he will not force him …

Our Hope is Jesus Christ…it is a the certainty of hope…for we know in whom is our hope and is more certain than anything created…

No need to respond…cause we know you will just say it is rhetoric again.

But it is not …it is rather Hope and Faith…

and experience in Knowing Christ Jesus my Lord and his love.

I went to confession this afternoon, and was sincere, and so I hope I was absolved and i hope I am now in a state of grace and I hope I am truly a new creation. But speaking in all honesty, as a catholic, I don’t know that I am any of these things. And even if I am, as far as i can see there is no assure I will be upon waking in the morning. Ever heard of Phineas Gage? it is possible for you to wake up hating everyone you know including God tomorrow morning (highly unlikely, but possible). Should I live in fear that my brain chemistry may not hold out to the end? Will God damn humans because of neuro-transmitter deficiencies?

 

[Bookcat]

yes one can have moral certainty that one is a new creation …and renewed in this newness in confession for example…that I was absolved.

Yes I can be confident of my present state of salvation…and even knowing my love for Christ and commitment to following him and his grace I can have an assurance of my future salvation too…but I cannot have an absolute and infallible assurance …for example I may betray my Lord and die away from him…I have to watch so I do not fall (1 Cor. 10:12)

But yes in baptism I was a new creation…and this is renewed at least in part in my confession …and I can be renewed from day to day…

but yes I can have faith and hope that this is so. Paul tells me it is so…as does the Church still

I can be morally certain that my wife is not poisoning my food…

but there is always a possibility that she could be slipping a little something in there…

one does not bother oneself with such questions…

(now that I think about it …that did taste a bit funny …humm…well any way back to what i was saying)

one should seek only the kind of certainty that is possible or fitted to a particular thing…
and which is thus reasonable too…

God emphasizes Faith…walking in Faith…and Hope…

a hopeful confidence in Jesus Christ.

 

[the_hazel_nut]

Actually sexual pleasure for the sake of sexual pleasure in marriage is something that many Catholics (especially Ron Conte) on these boards, have said should be avoided. Catholic spouse are to be chaste in the marital relations, and they should only see to pleasure the other and never themselves and the should never engage in foreplay or eroticism in any fashion except that they proceed from there to intervaginal ejaculation.

I’m not an expert on this. But sexual pleasure in the context of marriage is not to be avoided as far as I can tell. (Though yes its true, the act must be completed with ejaculation inside the vagina)

Furthermore, correct me if I am wrong but didn’t Jesus say “Be ye perfect…”?
How is that not a requirement of perfection?

I hadn’t thought about that quote. You are right, we are called to perfection apparently… But we are still notrequired to be perfect, otherwise we would all go to hell. Right?

And then there is the implicit demand for perfection. After all, the Catholic can lead a perfectly chaste, devout, secluded, life and then have occasion to sin mortally and die seconds later, resulting in their eternal damnation.

Or, someone could live a life of sin, and one day (sincerely) repent, die the next day and not be damned…

As I see it, the pressure to be morally perfect at all times in Catholicism is far far far greater than in any protestant denomination.

Yep… because of our differing views on salvation…

This is how I think about it… I’ve actually said this before lol, I’m not just making it up for this thread. I think it fits. To follow what God wants us to do is hard… in fact its impossible… thats why there is the sacrifice of Jesus Christ and of course forgiveness whenever we ask!

 

[HereticalTheist]

I’m not an expert on this. But sexual pleasure in the context of marriage is not to be avoided as far as I can tell. (Though yes its true, the act must be completed with ejaculation inside the vagina)

I hadn’t thought about that quote. You are right, we are called to perfection apparently… But we are still notrequired to be perfect, otherwise we would all go to hell. Right?

Or, someone could live a life of sin, and one day (sincerely) repent, die the next day and not be damned…

Yep… because of our differing views on salvation…

This is how I think about it… I’ve actually said this before lol, I’m not just making it up for this thread. I think it fits. To follow what God wants us to do is hard… in fact its impossible… thats why there is the sacrifice of Jesus Christ and of course forgiveness whenever we ask!

And apparently one should hope to live long enough to make sure they’ve confessed before dying. I tell you the truth. If I could, honestly, I would literally live inside (or beside) a confessional. And I would take communion twice per day, and spend every waking minute in adoration.

It’s to bad my school debts are too steep to allows me to get into a monastic community!