Salvation

[LiveforChrist]

Hey All!

I’m just a bit confused on what exactly the Catholic Church teaches on Salvation. Could someone please summarize it for me? I know that Jesus died for all sins and that it is by his dying that we get into heaven, but how do we explain to our protestant friends about mortal sin, and how we can lose our salvation if we die in the state of mortal sin?

Bible references would be helpful.

Thanks and God bless!
LiveForChrist

 

[sdegutis]

I think explaining these things in a meaningful way depends largely on the specific objections to it that a person has. Otherwise, it’s too broad a topic and someone could go on and on in volumes about it saying only things that the objector really has no objection with, never even hitting the real objection at its heart. It’s that broad of a topic.

 

[sdegutis]

For example, if the specific objection is that there aren’t varying levels of sin, then I would find it appropriate to quote the several things Jesus says which indicate the exact opposite. If the objection is that you can’t ever lose your salvation, I would quote certain parts of the New Testament that either explain otherwise or at least imply it. If they have a problem with “works and faith” I would point to the Book of James as well as several parables of Jesus that make more sense in this interpretation than in any other, such as the wedding banquet, or the ten virgins.

But even still, you’d be hard-pressed to convince someone that your interpretation of those verses is more correct than theirs, because people often seem to want their interpretation to be right, regardless if it really is. And they’ll search out proofs in Scripture that their interpretation is right, using their interpretation, ignoring the obviousness of this fallacy.

 

[Chuck_Finley]

LiveforChrist:

how do we explain to our protestant friends about mortal sin, and how we can lose our salvation if we die in the state of mortal sin?

We already understand what you believe. We just don’t agree with it.

Bible references would be helpful.

Bible references are always helpful, as we believe that the Bible is to be our standard in matters of doctrine.

Another thing you might want to consider is that, when Catholics talk to us and we present Bible verses, it’s extremely common for Catholics to just dismiss them by saying, “well, that’s just your interpretation”. If you’re going to go that route and say that we’ve been misinterpreting these verses for 2,000 years, then please at least be respectful enough to explain how you believe we’ve misinterpreted them and what you believe the correct interpretation is.

To just say “Well, that’s just your interpretation” is no different than a five year old saying “nuh-uh!” and will only hurt your argument.

 

[sdegutis]

If you’re going to go that route and say that we’ve been misinterpreting these verses for 2,000 years, then please at least be respectful enough to explain how you believe we’ve misinterpreted them and what you believe the correct interpretation is.

More correctly, an individual non-Catholic has been misinterpreting those verses for usually less than a century. And they may have gotten their interpretation either from their own reading of Scripture, or from someone else’s ideas, who themselves have the exact same situation of how they came to interpret the Bible verses.

This can be traced all the way back to such Protestants as Luther, Calvin, et al. Before them, the entire Catholic Church interpreted the Bible the same way for a millenium and a half. These original re-interpreters usually seemed to have taken the first approach, of simply interpreting Scripture themselves.

So, anyone who takes either of these two approaches needs a serious reason to consider that private interpretation is logical, because common sense and history both demonstrate that private interpretation is not the way God intended Scripture to be interpreted. Reading the earliest Church Fathers and even reading the New Testament carefully (and especially in the original languages) will quickly show that all doctrines were always handed down. First, by the Father to Jesus, secondly from Jesus to the Apostles, thirdly from the Holy Spirit to the Apostles, and finally from the Apostles to their successors, etc. until this very day.

Plus, how would the first Christians have been able to interpret Scripture in any way when it wasn’t even written down yet for the first several decades of Christianity’s existence? Christianity didn’t come from Scripture, Scripture came from the Catholic Church.

 

[MariaG]

I always cringe when I hear people say that.

Consider saying scripture came to us by the Holy Spirit through the Catholic Church. No less accurate but my fundamentalist roots feel as if the inspiration of God is being left out with the previous statement. And I have a harder time reading anymore.

God Bless

 

[Chuck_Finley]

I always cringe when I hear people say that.

Consider saying scripture came to us by the Holy Spirit through the Catholic Church. No less accurate but my fundamentalist roots feel as if the inspiration of God is being left out with the previous statement. And I have a harder time reading anymore.

God Bless

Not to mention the fact that 2/3 of the scriptures were already written and well known by the time Christianity even began, and all of the scriptures were already written and well known and widely circulated by the time the Catholic Church was founded.

More correctly, an individual non-Catholic has been misinterpreting those verses for usually less than a century

Thank you for illustrating exactly what I was talking about.

 

[sdegutis]

Not to mention the fact that 2/3 of the scriptures were already written and well known by the time Christianity even began, and all of the scriptures were already written and well known and widely circulated by the time the Catholic Church was founded.

I’m not at all talking about the Old Testament. In context I thought that was clear, my apologies for being ambiguous.

The New Testament wasn’t written when the Catholic Church was founded. The Catholic Church was founded on Pentecost. For several decades, as the Church preached the good news to the world, there was no New Testament. So how could Christians at this point use the New Testament as their basis for their understanding of doctrine and truth? They didn’t, because the New Testament is a subset of the larger Sacred Tradition, which just means a handing down of what the Apostles received from God and handed on to their successors.

 

[veilofveronica]

Hi there,

Basically, we are saved by Christ through our Baptism. We don’t “lose” our salvation per se. What happens, in my understanding, when we commit a mortal sin and do not seek forgiveness, is that we remove ourselves, willingly and totally, from God’s friendship and love. I would explain it as this, that yes, we are saved, but that if we choose, we can still reject this salvation through our own choice.

 

[Ambrose]

LiveforChrist:

how do we explain to our protestant friends about mortal sin, and how we can lose our salvation if we die in the state of mortal sin?

We already understand what you believe. We just don’t agree with it.

Bible references are always helpful, as we believe that the Bible is to be our standard in matters of doctrine.

Another thing you might want to consider is that, when Catholics talk to us and we present Bible verses, it’s extremely common for Catholics to just dismiss them by saying, “well, that’s just your interpretation”. If you’re going to go that route and say that we’ve been misinterpreting these verses for 2,000 years, then please at least be respectful enough to explain how you believe we’ve misinterpreted them and what you believe the correct interpretation is.

To just say “Well, that’s just your interpretation” is no different than a five year old saying “nuh-uh!” and will only hurt your argument.

I don’t think it’s necessarily always a matter of misinterpretation, it many times is a matter of emphasis. For example, there are Christian sects 100% sure they are in the fullness of truth that handle poisonous snakes & think you have to as well if you have faith.

The main thing that Luther emphasized was salvation through faith ALONE. By adding that word into the Bible, it changed the entire meaning of the passage. The Catholic Church has always said you’re saved by faith, but Luthers emphasis here over all other passages in scripture was a big bone of contention.

And no you haven’t been misinterpreting scripture for 2000 years, it’s more like 500 years. As far as the Catholic position, as you know we base our faith on Tradition, the teaching Magisterium of the Church & Sacred Scripture.

A couple of passages that we might look at to balance out our position as far as salvation goes(balance out might be a poor choice of words but it shows we don’t just take one passage & emphasize it over all the others) are the following:

-James 2:24
-Matt 7:21-27
-1 Cor 13:2
-1 Cor 13:13
-James 2:19
-1 Tim 4:1
-Matt 19:17

This is not an exhaustive list, just a few passages, again combined with Tradition & the teaching Magisterium give a quick overview.

Hope that helps.

 

[jschutzm]

Hey All!

I’m just a bit confused on what exactly the Catholic Church teaches on Salvation. Could someone please summarize it for me? I know that Jesus died for all sins and that it is by his dying that we get into heaven, but how do we explain to our protestant friends about mortal sin, and how we can lose our salvation if we die in the state of mortal sin?

Bible references would be helpful.

Thanks and God bless!
LiveForChrist

Here’s how I would explain the Catholic teaching on Salvation, that, put it into my own words, verses merely quoting scripture OR the Catechism.
I find when talking to my Wife (who is Baptist) about my faith… she could care less about what the “Church” teaches… she wants to know what I PERSONALLY believe.
While this makes sense since we are married… I’ve ran into similar attitudes from other Protestants. Less care about how the Catholic Faith explains it and more about how you as a Catholic person believe.

I’d say it this way:

Catholics don’t distinguish faith and actions. To a Catholic…everything is part of our ‘response’ to God’s mercy and grace. All actions are an expression of our faith in God and all faith is an action. Because our souls and bodies are linked; Catholics don’t see a true distinction between what we believe and how we act. Because our actions show our true beliefs and our beliefs should be expressed through our actions.

The Catholic view of salvation can be summed up as Faith, Love, Charity. Or as Galatians 5:6 puts it, “…faith working through love.”
The end of Galatians 5:6 contains all three elements of our response to God’s Grace (unmerited gift) We have faith working through our love.

Any 3 of those is and of themselves is insufficient.
Faith without expressing love or Charity (works) is a dead faith as it says in the book of James.
Love demands expression. You can’t truly love someone and never express that in the form of charity or good works. Therefore love yearns to be acted upon.
Works done without faith or love are meaningless… that is, they are done for the wrong reason and usually selfish. Works alone can not save…they must be done with faith and love.
But likewise, Love without works and faith is impossible. At least ‘true love’ - real love, not lust and narcisim.
Faith which is kept private and never acted on is not sincere nor fruitful. Like love… faith seems to demand to be expressed in some way.

So the Catholic concept of Salvation is Faith, Love, Charity.

Catholics believe that our EVERY being should be devoted to following Christ. Our actions, our desires, our beliefs – ALL should be towards God.
We shouldn’t hold back and only give God our mind or our faith, or our body… but all 3.

Catholics believe that we ‘choose’ to follow Christ and have faith in him each and everyday in what we say or do, or even what we fail to do. We say this at every Mass when we ask God for forgiveness and for others to pray for us. “…in my thoughts and in my words, in what I do and what I fail to do”

EVERYTHING to a Catholic is part of that response to God… always seeking forgiveness always growing closer to God, always trying to say “YES” to him.

---

And less anyone say that Catholics believe in “works alone” - explain to them that EVERYTHING to a Catholic is part of our response to God… our acceptance of his forgiveness and mercy. One of the things I love MOST about the Catholic faith is that we don’t create arbitrary distinctions between Faith vs. Works or Love vs. Faith, etc.
EVERYTHING is part of our “Yes” or “No” to God.

Going to church to be with God and to keep his commandment = part of our YES to God.

Cursing out the Store Clerk when we’re in a hurry and there is a mistake = part of our rejection of God’s teachings

To a Catholic… we are constantly move closer or choosing to draw away from God. We just don’t distinguish what is faith and what is action. They are ALL faith or ALL actions to some degree.

 

[Chuck_Finley]

Ambrose:

And no you haven’t been misinterpreting scripture for 2000 years, it’s more like 500 years.

Thank you for illustrating the childishness I was talking about.

 

[sdegutis]

Thank you for illustrating the childishness I was talking about.

I fail to see how that was childish. Just because someone presents a view as fact, which you disagree with, does not constitute immaturity in any sense of the word of which I am aware.

 

[Ambrose]

Thank you for illustrating the childishness I was talking about.

If you have problems with the veracity of my comment, please state what it is. I try to be open to new information and points of view. Or we can further discuss the topic.

Or maybe being ‘childish’ as you say isn’t just my domain.

 

[catholic1seeks]

Justification in Catholic Teaching by Jimmy Akin

The above article is somewhat lengthy but provides a good overview!

Look around Catholic.com as well.

 

[thistle]

Not to mention the fact that 2/3 of the scriptures were already written and well known by the time Christianity even began, and all of the scriptures were already written and well known and widely circulated by the time the Catholic Church was founded.

Thank you for illustrating exactly what I was talking about.

The New Testament was written by Catholics. The Apostles and other disciples were the first Catholics.

 

[Teresa_of_Iowa]

I’d say it this way:

To a Catholic…everything is part of our ‘response’ to God’s mercy and grace. All actions are an expression of our faith in God and all faith is an action. Because our souls and bodies are linked; Catholics don’t see a true distinction between what we believe and how we act. Because our actions show our true beliefs and our beliefs should be expressed through our actions.

Amen and Amen…beautifully put…and so should we all be.

A Baptist protestant as well…though I don’t like the labels and prefer - a follower of Christ.

Teresa of Iowa

 

[Hamlet123]

Here’s how I would explain the Catholic teaching on Salvation, that, put it into my own words, verses merely quoting scripture OR the Catechism.
I find when talking to my Wife (who is Baptist) about my faith… she could care less about what the “Church” teaches… she wants to know what I PERSONALLY believe.
While this makes sense since we are married… I’ve ran into similar attitudes from other Protestants. Less care about how the Catholic Faith explains it and more about how you as a Catholic person believe.

I’d say it this way:

Catholics don’t distinguish faith and actions. To a Catholic…everything is part of our ‘response’ to God’s mercy and grace. All actions are an expression of our faith in God and all faith is an action. Because our souls and bodies are linked; Catholics don’t see a true distinction between what we believe and how we act. Because our actions show our true beliefs and our beliefs should be expressed through our actions.

The Catholic view of salvation can be summed up as Faith, Love, Charity. Or as Galatians 5:6 puts it, “…faith working through love.”
The end of Galatians 5:6 contains all three elements of our response to God’s Grace (unmerited gift) We have faith working through our love.

Any 3 of those is and of themselves is insufficient.
Faith without expressing love or Charity (works) is a dead faith as it says in the book of James.
Love demands expression. You can’t truly love someone and never express that in the form of charity or good works. Therefore love yearns to be acted upon.
Works done without faith or love are meaningless… that is, they are done for the wrong reason and usually selfish. Works alone can not save…they must be done with faith and love.
But likewise, Love without works and faith is impossible. At least ‘true love’ - real love, not lust and narcisim.
Faith which is kept private and never acted on is not sincere nor fruitful. Like love… faith seems to demand to be expressed in some way.

So the Catholic concept of Salvation is Faith, Love, Charity.

Catholics believe that our EVERY being should be devoted to following Christ. Our actions, our desires, our beliefs – ALL should be towards God.
We shouldn’t hold back and only give God our mind or our faith, or our body… but all 3.

Catholics believe that we ‘choose’ to follow Christ and have faith in him each and everyday in what we say or do, or even what we fail to do. We say this at every Mass when we ask God for forgiveness and for others to pray for us. “…in my thoughts and in my words, in what I do and what I fail to do”

EVERYTHING to a Catholic is part of that response to God… always seeking forgiveness always growing closer to God, always trying to say “YES” to him.

---

And less anyone say that Catholics believe in “works alone” - explain to them that EVERYTHING to a Catholic is part of our response to God… our acceptance of his forgiveness and mercy. One of the things I love MOST about the Catholic faith is that we don’t create arbitrary distinctions between Faith vs. Works or Love vs. Faith, etc.
EVERYTHING is part of our “Yes” or “No” to God.

Going to church to be with God and to keep his commandment = part of our YES to God.

Cursing out the Store Clerk when we’re in a hurry and there is a mistake = part of our rejection of God’s teachings

To a Catholic… we are constantly move closer or choosing to draw away from God. We just don’t distinguish what is faith and what is action. They are ALL faith or ALL actions to some degree.

I was going to cut a part of your response out and laud you for an excellent understanding and clear concise explanation of Catholic Faith; however, all of your response was (so) good I left it all in.

I do have one problem with your response. My problem is your noting “Catholics believe”. I came back to the church about four years ago after long hard study. Upon my return, I discovered Catholics believe everything under the sun. It is like there is no Catechism and if there is one “I’ll pick what I like and cut what I don’t”. Now not all Catholics are that way, I wouldn’t even say most but enough to confuse non-Catholics and to agravate those who have paid a big price to come to the one Church of Christ.

God bless you and you should thank Him for giving you this talent. Use it; I hope to read you more on CA, Jsschutzm

 

[peace2u2]

Hey All!

I’m just a bit confused on what exactly the Catholic Church teaches on Salvation. Could someone please summarize it for me? I know that Jesus died for all sins and that it is by his dying that we get into heaven, but how do we explain to our protestant friends about mortal sin, and how we can lose our salvation if we die in the state of mortal sin?

Bible references would be helpful.

Thanks and God bless!
LiveForChrist

I am saved by my Baptism. Praise God!

Ephesians 2:5-8
even when we were dead in our transgressions, brought us to life with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
raised us up with him, and seated us with him in the heavens in Christ Jesus,
that in the ages to come he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God;

I am also working out my salvation . . .

Philippians 2:12
So then, my beloved, obedient as you have always been, not only when I am present but all the more now when I am absent, work out your salvation with fear and trembling.

And I have hope that I will be saved. Amen!

Romans 5:2
through whom we have gained access (by faith) to this grace in which we stand, and we boast in hope of the glory of God.

Peace2U2

 

[Almagore]

If you have problems with the veracity of my comment, please state what it is. I try to be open to new information and points of view. Or we can further discuss the topic.

Or maybe being ‘childish’ as you say isn’t just my domain.

I can’t find the quote but someone calling anyone or what anyone says to be childish has no place here. I apologize for whoever said that.

I would like to correct some things and add some things if I may. Someone said something about that there was no Bible for hundreds of years after the start of the Church. While it is true that there was no Canonized Bible until the 300’s there were writings of Jesus teachings from the beginning. Certainly St. Paul’s letters were written during the first Century and though they weren’t “scripture” until later, they were highly respected and read at weekly meetings during the times of the Apostles. Certainly, St. Paul’s letters said the same thing when they were originally written ,say, in 60 AD as they did when the Cannon was formed in the 300’s.

Someone said that the Scriptures were not meant for private interpretation as they were handed down as well as written. We all should be aware that it is possible for an individual to interpret a scripture in some way that the writer never intended; after all, we all vary in knowledge and intelligence. I am a Catholic and believe it is good to have an authoritative interpretation of scripture were the meaning is not easily seen.

Unfortunately, the fact that we are all human, even though the Holy Spirit is in us, can cause problems with an interpretation by the brightest and the most intelligent when emotions are intense, even if it is from the church.

Regarding explaining Catholic Doctrin to our Christian Brothers, I have never had much success with this but I wish anyone well who feels called to do that. I was a Protestant for 27 years before I became a Catholic and I can quote 20 scriptures to show that Catholic doctrine is from the Bible when many of the doctrines of protestants are not but they just dismiss everything I say.

God bless all who write or read this blog and Please God lead all of us to the fullness of the truth. Amen