Salvation??????

[joeforjesus]

Catechism of the Catholic Church-847
This affirmation(see 846) is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not kow Christ and his church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience–those too may achieve eternal salvation.

1. So there is a secret back door to enter eternal salvation?
2. Sincere heart. Isn’t the heart desperately wicked, and deceitful. Jer. 17:9. What did Christ say in Matt. 15:18-20. The heart is wicked, can’t trust it.
   No one can enter eternal salvation, but by Christ. John 14:6. And that’s by grace through faith, not of good works.
   I don’t quite understand the RCC. I am not trying to attack, but that 847 is totally false!!
   We are all under sin, of course you know that. So there can’t be this through no fault of your own thing. What about Romans, throw that book out. It’s the truth of the word of God plus nothing.
   Genesis to Revelation plus nothing. That’s where the confusion comes in, somebody always wants to add to what God has already said. And that’s on both sides of the fence. As I have previously stated, I’ve read through some of the Catechism, and it just doesn’t line up. If the RCC says there are other ways of salvation than it is going against the very words of Christ. He is the authority, and only Him. I will only bow my knee to Jesus today or in heaven, not to anyone else. He is the author and finisher of our faith. Heb. 12:2.
   I know in whom I have believed, He is the Christ, the Son of the living God. Who bore my sins on the cross, so I could know that my sins are forgiven, and know that I have been redeemed, and know when I take my last breath on earth I will be in the presence of Christ Jesus my Lord and Savior. Amen!!

 

[jimmy]

joeforjesus:

Catechism of the Catholic Church-847
This affirmation(see 846) is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not kow Christ and his church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience–those too may achieve eternal salvation.

1. So there is a secret back door to enter eternal salvation?
2. Sincere heart. Isn’t the heart desperately wicked, and deceitful. Jer. 17:9. What did Christ say in Matt. 15:18-20. The heart is wicked, can’t trust it.
   No one can enter eternal salvation, but by Christ. John 14:6. And that’s by grace through faith, not of good works.

As James says, “can’t you see that faith without works is dead?” He also says “Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?”

Christ says that we willl be judged according to our works in Matt. 25.

The truth is that it is through faith and works that we are saved.

I don’t quite understand the RCC. I am not trying to attack, but that 847 is totally false!!

Not necisarily. Christ died on the cross to save us all. There is no salvation other than through Him. We all recieve salvation from Christ. There is no back door way, but He gives all men a chance. He does not just give those a chance who have heard of Him and His Church. God does not predestine people for hell.

Granted, it is much harder outside the Church with all the relitivism and everything else, but there is a chance.

We are all under sin, of course you know that. So there can’t be this through no fault of your own thing. What about Romans, throw that book out. It’s the truth of the word of God plus nothing.
Genesis to Revelation plus nothing.

Do you have a complete bible? There are people passing out defective bibles. They removed Wisdom and Baruch and Ruth and Maccabees.

Show me the list of inspired books within those books you list. If you can not you must admit that there is an oral tradition because the bible was not assembled until the fifth century. Paul also says to “follow the traditions whether spoken or by epistle.”

I know in whom I have believed, He is the Christ, the Son of the living God. Who bore my sins on the cross, so I could know that my sins are forgiven, and know that I have been redeemed, and know when I take my last breath on earth I will be in the presence of Christ Jesus my Lord and Savior. Amen!!

Amen!!! Hope to see you there.

 

[flamingsword]

If a person has never been exposed to the truth of the Gospel, yet they live out their life in adherence to natural law they are unknowningly following Christ.

Natural law is reflected in many different cultures and religions because it comes, with reason, from nature. Since God created the natural world these laws come from God.

What it means to never be exposed to the Gospel and follow natural law without the graces provided by Christ through the Church are not easily doable, in my opinion.

 

[Hegesippus]

Anonymous Christians, they are Christians without realizing it

 

[reen12]

Dear joeforjesus,

quote: joeforjesus

1. Sincere heart. Isn’t the heart desperately wicked, and deceitful. Jer. 17:9. What did Christ say in Matt. 15:18-20. The heart is wicked, can’t trust it

.

Isn’t the heart desperately wicked…

Uh…no.

-Luther held that human nature [aka "the heart] is totally
depraved.

-Catholicism holds that humans are “wounded” in their
nature, and lack sanctifying grace until Baptism.

-Judaism holds that the soul [aka “heart”] is made in the
image and likeness of God, and is, in no way, wounded
or totally depraved- due to the sin of Adam.

Original sin is a wholly Christian concept.

God saves who He wills, as He wills - for He is both Justice and Mercy. Those who know of Christ have their reward.
Those who don’t, through no fault of their own, are left
to the mercy of God.

Consider the parable of the workers in the vineyard.
Not a perfect analogy, but apt.

Best,
reen12

 

[Fidelis]

What about Romans, throw that book out. It’s the truth of the word of God plus nothing.

Before you throw out Romans, you had best read chapters 1:13 through 2:16
usccb.org/nab/bible/romans/romans1.htm
Paul makes it very clear that those who have never heard the Gospel will be held accountable for the light that is given by God to all men. He specifically points out they will be punished for the evil they will do. But if this is true, it must also mean mean that God will *reward * them for faith and obedience in response to that same knowledge he puts in their heart. If not, God created them for the sole purpose of destroying them and consigning them to hell. On the contrary, Paul says explicitly:

They [the Gentiles who have never heard the Gospel]show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even defend them on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge people’s hidden works through Christ Jesus. (Romans 2:15-16)

I would also say that God can save anyone he wants to. In other words, He Himself is not limited by the means he Himself has provided. In fact, the Scriptures clearly teach that people were saved in an anticipatory way before the way means of salvation was wrought by Jesus’ redeeming death on the Cross. For example, in Hebrews Chapter 11
usccb.org/nab/bible/hebrews/hebrews11.htm
Paul cites numerous examples of OT saints who barely knew who God was, let alone never heard the Gospel. “Yet all these, though approved because of their faith, did not receive what had been promised. God had foreseen something better for us, so that without us they should not be made perfect.” In other words, they were saved through their faith and obedience to God (even though they seemed to have no good reason to) in anticipation of what would become the normal means to be saved.

Bottom line: God can and has saved whomever he wills and is not bound by his “normative” means of providence, let alone our rigid and limiting theological constructs.

 

[Contarini]

joeforjesus:

Catechism of the Catholic Church-847
This affirmation(see 846) is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not kow Christ and his church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience–those too may achieve eternal salvation.

1. So there is a secret back door to enter eternal salvation?

There is one door. The mercy of God in Christ.

joeforjesus:

1. Sincere heart. Isn’t the heart desperately wicked, and deceitful. Jer. 17:9. What did Christ say in Matt. 15:18-20. The heart is wicked, can’t trust it.

Exactly. Which is why the CCC says that such “sincere” people are “moved by grace.” Only by grace can we seek God with a sincere heart.

joeforjesus:

No one can enter eternal salvation, but by Christ. John 14:6. And that’s by grace through faith, not of good works.

Exactly. Neither does salvation come through right knowledge. We aren’t saved according to how much information we have received.

joeforjesus:

We are all under sin, of course you know that. So there can’t be this through no fault of your own thing.

You’re misunderstanding what the Catechism says. It doesn’t say that there are people who are without fault. It says that the people in question are not at fault with regard to their lack of knowledge of the Gospel. In other words, they haven’t deliberately closed their minds to the Gospel. Of course they are still sinners like the rest of us, and the only way their sins can be forgiven is through Christ. What the CCC suggests is that people who have not heard of Christ can still be forgiven by Him.

Myself, I think that it isn’t worded as well as it could be, and it has given rise to overly liberal interpretations. I think it’s better to speak of someone such as the Catechism speaks of (who has been guided by the grace of God to repent of their sins and seek God insofar as they know Him) placing their faith in Christ when they encounter Him at the moment of death.

I would also agree with you that we should not turn pious speculation into doctrine, and that the RCC has a tendency to do this. There are various ways in which it is possible that God may have mercy on those who have never heard the Gospel. What we must hold is that

1. salvation comes only through Christ
2. God desires the salvation of all.

How those two things work together–that’s a matter of speculation.

Edwin

 

[Church_Militant]

Joe,

It helps a great deal if you consider anything that you read, from the Bible or anywhere else, with in it’s context.

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

337 LG 16; cf. DS 3866-3872.

338 AG 7; cf. ⇒ Heb 11:6; ⇒ 1 Cor 9:16.

Must be the Holy Spirit who brings this up because I was reading the Tao Te Ching just this morning, (since I happen to have a very good copy) and as I read it I was noticing just how many places Lao Tzu speaks of not knowing the Tao (The way)… it struck me that perhaps this is what the CCC is talking about. The Tao reads something like a cross between Proverbs and Ecclesiates or any of the other wisdom books of the OT. It was written some 600 years before Christ and therefore Lao, through no fault of his own never had the chance to come into contact with either Judaism or Christianity as we know them. They say that he wrote all this down at the behest of a simple gate guard as he was getting ready to ride off into the desert to die because he was sick at heart at the ways of men. This is not unlike at least one of the prophets in the OT (See 1st Kings 19). So… what can we say of all this? Was my friend Lao Tzu sent to hell through no fault of his own? This is essentiallly what the CCC is talking about, & Romans 1:19-20 reinforces this very idea. (“Because that which is known of God is manifest in them. For God hath manifested it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him, from the creation of the world, are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made; his eternal power also, and divinity: so that they are inexcusable.”)

Do we know in our finite capacity exactly how God will deal with Lao Tzu? No one can honestly say…and the Catholic Church chooses not to presume to, but instead trusts that the just and merciful God that we know and love, and who has expressed His love for us in Jesus Christ will deal with LaoTzu and all like him with the same mercy that He has shown to us.
Pax vobiscum,

 

[reen12]

Dear Church Militant,

You were reading whaaaat???

quote: Church Militant

Must be the Holy Spirit who brings this up because I was reading the Tao Te Ching just this morning, (since I happen to have a very good copy) and as I read it I was noticing just how many places Lao Tzu speaks of not knowing the Tao (The way)…

I’ve spent 30 years reading Buddist thought, with many
a side trip into the Tao Te Ching…I’ve found it an excellent
way to engage those who recommend Buddhism. heh, heh.

It reminds me of St. Paul saying: I become all things to
all men…

You probably know more about Eastern thought than
I do.:tiphat:

Kindest regards, Church Militant,

Maureen

 

[Church_Militant]

Hey Maureen,

I like my copy of the Tao. I hope Lao Tzu is in heaven. He sounds like a guy with a serious conscience and who is searching for God under the influence of the Holy Spirit.
Beyond this, I don’t think anyone can presume to say.

I’m glad I’m who I am.
Pax tecum,

 

[reen12]

quote: Church Militant

I like my copy of the Tao. I hope Lao Tzu is in heaven. He sounds like a guy with a serious conscience and who is searching for God under the influence of the Holy Spirit.
Beyond this, I don’t think anyone can presume to say.

I’m glad I’m who I am

Couldn’t agree more,

Best,
reen

 

[joeforjesus]

reen12:

Dear joeforjesus,

quote: joeforjesus

.

Uh…no.

-Luther held that human nature [aka "the heart] is totally
depraved.

-Catholicism holds that humans are “wounded” in their
nature, and lack sanctifying grace until Baptism.

-Judaism holds that the soul [aka “heart”] is made in the
image and likeness of God, and is, in no way, wounded
or totally depraved- due to the sin of Adam.

Original sin is a wholly Christian concept.

God saves who He wills, as He wills - for He is both Justice and Mercy. Those who know of Christ have their reward.
Those who don’t, through no fault of their own, are left
to the mercy of God.

Consider the parable of the workers in the vineyard.
Not a perfect analogy, but apt.

Best,
reen12

ROMANS CHAPTER 3–WE ARE ALL UNDER SIN. FROM BIRTH. SEE ALSO PSALM 53–ONCE AGAIN ALL ARE UNDER SIN. NO ONE CAN ESCAPE.
ONLY THROUGH CHRIST CAN WE OBTAIN SALVATION, NO OTHER. WE ARE SAVED BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH, NOT OF (GOOD WORKS). SEE EPHESIANS.
AFTER WE ARE SAVED OR BORN AGAIN AS CHRIST SAID, THEN WE SHOULD BE DOING GOOD WORKS, NOT TO OBTAIN SALVATION, BUT THE EVIDENCE OF SALVATION, EVIDENCE THAT GOD’S HOLY SPIRIT LIVES IN YOU.
MANY GOOD AND NOBLE PEOPLE HAVE SAID MANY GOOD AND NOBLE THINGS FROM ALL DEOMINATIONS, BUT WHEN THE RUBBER MEETS THE ROAD, THE ONLY THING THAT MATTERS IS WHAT DOES THE LORD YOUR GOD SAY.

THUS SAYS THE LORD: CURSED IS THE MAN WHO TRUSTS IN MAN AND MAKES FLESH HIS STRENGTH, WHOSE HEART DEPARTS FROM THE LORD. Jeremiah 17:5

I HAVE SHOWN YOU VERSES FROM GOD’S WORD THAT SHOW THE CONDITION OF THE HEART, YOU HAVE SHOWN ME WHAT MAN HAS SAID. IT’S NOT MAN’S OPINION, BUT WHAT GOD SAYS THROUGH HIS WORD, WHICH IS THE HEART IS DESPERATELY WICKED, THAT’S WHY WE NEED A SAVIOR.

JOE

 

[joeforjesus]

Church Militant:

Joe,

It helps a great deal if you consider anything that you read, from the Bible or anywhere else, with in it’s context.

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

337 LG 16; cf. DS 3866-3872.

338 AG 7; cf. ⇒ Heb 11:6; ⇒ 1 Cor 9:16.

Must be the Holy Spirit who brings this up because I was reading the Tao Te Ching just this morning, (since I happen to have a very good copy) and as I read it I was noticing just how many places Lao Tzu speaks of not knowing the Tao (The way)… it struck me that perhaps this is what the CCC is talking about. The Tao reads something like a cross between Proverbs and Ecclesiates or any of the other wisdom books of the OT. It was written some 600 years before Christ and therefore Lao, through no fault of his own never had the chance to come into contact with either Judaism or Christianity as we know them. They say that he wrote all this down at the behest of a simple gate guard as he was getting ready to ride off into the desert to die because he was sick at heart at the ways of men. This is not unlike at least one of the prophets in the OT (See 1st Kings 19). So… what can we say of all this? Was my friend Lao Tzu sent to hell through no fault of his own? This is essentiallly what the CCC is talking about, & Romans 1:19-20 reinforces this very idea. (“Because that which is known of God is manifest in them. For God hath manifested it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him, from the creation of the world, are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made; his eternal power also, and divinity: so that they are inexcusable.”)

Do we know in our finite capacity exactly how God will deal with Lao Tzu? No one can honestly say…and the Catholic Church chooses not to presume to, but instead trusts that the just and merciful God that we know and love, and who has expressed His love for us in Jesus Christ will deal with LaoTzu and all like him with the same mercy that He has shown to us.
Pax vobiscum,

YOUR PROBLEM IS EXCEPTING WHAT GOD’S WORD SAYS, ALL ARE UNDER SIN, ALL (MUST) COME THROUGH CHRIST TO BE SAVED. NO EXCEPTIONS. SCRIPTURE IS VERY CLEAR ON THAT, YOU SHOWED IN THE ROMANS VERSES.

JOE

 

[Isidore_AK]

joeforjesus:

YOUR PROBLEM IS EXCEPTING WHAT GOD’S WORD SAYS, ALL ARE UNDER SIN, ALL (MUST) COME THROUGH CHRIST TO BE SAVED. NO EXCEPTIONS. SCRIPTURE IS VERY CLEAR ON THAT, YOU SHOWED IN THE ROMANS VERSES.

JOE

Just a thought Joe:

YOU DON"T HAVE TO SHOUT TO BE HEARD.

It is much easier to read your posts when you use proper capitalization, grammer, and punctuation…

 

[Fidelis]

joeforjesus:

I HAVE SHOWN YOU VERSES FROM GOD’S WORD THAT SHOW THE CONDITION OF THE HEART, YOU HAVE SHOWN ME WHAT MAN HAS SAID.

YOUR PROBLEM IS EXCEPTING WHAT GOD’S WORD SAYS, ALL ARE UNDER SIN, ALL (MUST) COME THROUGH CHRIST TO BE SAVED. NO EXCEPTIONS. SCRIPTURE IS VERY CLEAR ON THAT, YOU SHOWED IN THE ROMANS VERSES.

A) Don’t holler. The anger of man worketh not the righteousness of God.

B) You have not dealt with Romans 1:13—2:16 and Hebrews 11 as was pointed out above. Ignoring parts of the Bible that don’t jive with your pet theologies won’t make them go away (unless you want to follow Martin Luther who did away with entire books of the Bible and wanted to cut out James and Hebrews as well).You can’t take verses out of isolation from the whole of Scripture. A proof text out of context is a pretext.

 

[banjo]

joeforjesus:

ROMANS CHAPTER 3–WE ARE ALL UNDER SIN. FROM BIRTH. SEE ALSO PSALM 53–ONCE AGAIN ALL ARE UNDER SIN. NO ONE CAN ESCAPE.
JOE

Hi Joe,

Perhaps you can answer a question for me regarding Psalm 53.
Verse four reads, “All alike have gone astray; they have become perverse; there is not one who does good, not even one.” And in verse five; “Will all these evildoers never learn, they who eat up my people just as they eat bread?”

The psalm seems to identify two opposed groups; one being the evildoers and the other being my people. If there is not even one who does good, how can that be?

 

[Michael_Francis]

Due to the failing charity level of the OP this thread is now closed.