Salvation

[Orthodox_Guy]

Hello,

I am having a debate with a Protestant an another forum and would like some help.

Here are the Protestant’s arguments:

While there are many similarities between Biblical Christianity and Roman Catholicism- foremost the belief in Christ’s deity, there are still profound differences between the two that cannot be reconciled.

The Bible teaches that a person is justified by understanding his sinful condition and believing that Christ died as a substitutional sacrifice for one’s sins (Rom 3:21-26). When this occurs (the moment one exercises faith in Christ), Christ’s righteousness is imputed upon (i.e. ascribed or attributed to) the individual, justifying him in the sight of God.

The Catholic teaching of salvation differs in that not only faith but also good works pertaining to the sacraments yield justification. In essence, good works are required for salvation, which is not only unbiblical but heretical. The Bible teaches that one’s salvation results in good works, not the other way around.

In Gal 5 we see that those who were trying to be justified by their good works were “severed from Christ… [and]… fallen away from grace” (4). In light of this clear fact, I can confidently say that the Roman Catholic Church is not a part of Christianity. It is a wholly different religion.

Do Catholics really believe in salvation by good works?

Also, could you please explain what this passage from the Catechism mean?

“1129 The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation. … The fruit of the sacramental life is that the Spirit of adoption makes the faithful partakers in the divine nature by uniting them in a living union with the only Son, the Saviour.”

Please help, thanks!

 

[scylla]

Catholics do not believe in Salvation by works, but that works are necessary to be obedient to Christ or our faith is nothing. This is what the Catechism means…

I would respond with, is exercising faith in Christ an action?

This proves that we actually do have to do something to be saved according to his beliefs system.

Catholics\Orthodox\and several other faith systems… all baptize babies which do no works for their salvation so only they truly believe in salvation entirely by God’s Grace.

Every other belief system actually contradicts their own insistance by faith without works by insisting that we have to make an act of faith to be saved.

God Bless
Scylla

 

[Orthodox_Guy]

Ah, thank you very much. That has me convinced.
Anyone else?

 

[ricko]

Good grief! Don’t these people read their bible? All of it? There are many instances where works are required. How about Revelation for starters. And the dead were judge according to their works? I’ll be back with more later.

Back to reading of their bible. They go through the bible and pick out verses that back up their personal belief, usually out of context and ignore all else. If you don’t read your bible then you are easy prey for them.

 

[MGEISING]

Good grief! Don’t these people read their bible? All of it? There are many instances where works are required. How about Revelation for starters. And the dead were judge according to their works? I’ll be back with more later.

Back to reading of their bible. They go through the bible and pick out verses that back up their personal belief, usually out of context and ignore all else. If you don’t read your bible then you are easy prey for them.

It is amazing to me - how “bible” based churches - really don’t know their bibles …

Feast your eyes on this explanation of Faith and Works!

catholicapologetics.org/ap020800.htm

And then spend some time with other explanations!!!

catholicapologetics.org/

God’s Peace;

MGeising

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

The Bible says that faith without works is dead. So lets reason here— Faith with works is alive? So, what is going to be saving faith? A living faith…pure and simple and straight from the Bible.

The problem is that protestants try to separate the two. For Catholics, they are inseparable. You don’t have true faith without works and you don’t have true works without faith. Which comes first? Neither. It is God’s grace we receive first. Without His grace we couldn’t even have faith. (Hence, the Catechism also says salvation is from God alone, and most Catholics will affirm that no amount of works merit salvation). Our faith begets works because a person who has true faith wants to be obedient to Christ and that requires action…walking the walk, not just talking the talk.

I think the whole catch-phrase “faith plus works” is a bit misleading. The slogan should be “faith working through love” or “living your faith”. I think it would help protestants realize that we Catholics do not think we can work our way into heaven. I want to say clearly though, I do not believe that protestants have an inactive faith. But that they (sometimes willfully) misunderstand our belief in obedient faith.

Some helpful scripture, seems to me there is more required than inactive faith:

Jn 14:15 If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
Jn 14:21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves Me
1 Jn 2:3 And by this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments
1 Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.
2 Jn 6 And this is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, that you should walk in it.
Rev 12:17 who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.
Rev 14:12 Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

I also love 1 Cor 13:13-- So faith, hope, love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love. Love is greater than faith…hmmm…who’d have thunk it?

I find it interesting that the friend says that your salvation produces good works, not the other way around. That would indicate this person believes they are already saved (OSAS) and that “works” are a result of that. Catholics will disagree, of course, stating that salvation is a process, not a one time event. As is evident from these scriptures that I swiped from Awalt’s signature.:
I’m saved (Eph 2:5–8), being saved (1Cor 1:8), and hope I’ll be saved (1Cor 3:12–15). I’m working out my salvation in fear (Phil 2:12), with hopeful confidence in Christ (Rom 5:2).

 

[ricko]

“Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling” (Phil. 2:12).

You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." (James 2:24

“work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (Philippians 2:12)

Works do not justify you but works that grow out of faith are part of our justification.

Jesus tells one man who asks what must he do to be saved. Christ replies, “Keep the commandments”.

There are many, many more. Doing works just to be justified doesn’t work. In other words, if you obey the law and stop at a red light but you really want to run it that is obeying the law or doing good works for your own justification. Faith without works is dead.

 

[Orthodox_Guy]

Wow!
Excellent posts guys!

 

[Godfollower]

Let me ask your opponent this hypothetical example: suppose Bob is brought to a Protestant service and answers an altar call, confessing Jesus as Lord and accepting Him as his personal Lord and Savior. Then Bob leaves the service and heads off to work. Because he’s in a hurry, not only does he fail to help the homeless man on the corner, he actually bumps the man with his car (on purpose, yelling “get a job, you bum!”). He then dies.

Did his faith do anything during his (admittedly short) life on earth for his fellow man? “Faith without works is dead” (James 2:17, 20, 26) and has “no power to save” (James 2:14).

The Catholic response is that, no, Bob was not justified, because his faith was powerless to save; he was the seed poured out on the wayside (Luke 8:12). If you want to be saved, you have to be the seed poured out on good ground, which is “they who in a good and perfect heart, hearing the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit in patience.” (Luke 8:15).

In short, in Catholic theology faith that has no works does not save. This is actually not far from some of our Protestant brethren: those who say “I only need faith to be saved, but if I don’t do good works, then obviously I don’t have faith, because true faith necessarily brings forth good works” are really saying the same thing as the Catholic Church. We are saved by grace alone; if our response to that grace is faith that exhibits itself in works we will find salvation.

Note: we do not “earn” our salvation; Christ earned it for us when He redeemed us on the Cross. But our response to that redemption must be an efficacious one, not mere lip-service.

 

[Godfollower]

In Gal 5 we see that those who were trying to be justified by their good works were “severed from Christ… [and]… fallen away from grace” (4). In light of this clear fact, I can confidently say that the Roman Catholic Church is not a part of Christianity. It is a wholly different religion.

Your correspondent is also misreading this part of Scripture. Paul did not say “those who were trying to be justified by their good works were ‘severed from Christ,’” as your opponent implies. Rather, Paul said that those who tried to gain justification by obeying the Jewish Law were lost:

Stand fast, and be not held again under the yoke of bondage. Behold, I Paul tell you, that if you be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. And I testify again to every man circumcising himself, that he is a debtor to the whole law. You are made void of Christ, you who are justified in the law: you are fallen from grace. For we in spirit, by faith, wait for the hope of justice.

We as Catholics agree that those who try to gain salvation by satisfying the requirements of the old Law are engaged in a hopeless endeavor. But saying that works of the law have no power to save is not the same thing as saying that a Christian can just say “Yo, Jesus, I believe in you” and go back to lying, cheating, and stealing. Remember, as the Bible points out, even the demons believe in Jesus. The Bible is replete with explicit statements that we will be judged on our works (see generally, e.g., the Book of Revelation). Again, though: not that we earn salvation; it’s just that, if we accept Christ’s plan of salvation for us, we have to get off our duffs and do His work.

 

[newbie1234]

Your correspondent is also misreading this part of Scripture. Paul did not say “those who were trying to be justified by their good works were ‘severed from Christ,’” as your opponent implies. Rather, Paul said that those who tried to gain justification by obeying the Jewish Law were lost:

We as Catholics agree that those who try to gain salvation by satisfying the requirements of the old Law are engaged in a hopeless endeavor. But saying that works of the law have no power to save is not the same thing as saying that a Christian can just say “Yo, Jesus, I believe in you” and go back to lying, cheating, and stealing. Remember, as the Bible points out, even the demons believe in Jesus. The Bible is replete with explicit statements that we will be judged on our works (see generally, e.g., the Book of Revelation). Again, though: not that we earn salvation; it’s just that, if we accept Christ’s plan of salvation for us, we have to get off our duffs and do His work.

Read ephesians 2:8-9

 

[newbie1234]

Good grief! Don’t these people read their bible? All of it? There are many instances where works are required. How about Revelation for starters. And the dead were judge according to their works? I’ll be back with more later.

Back to reading of their bible. They go through the bible and pick out verses that back up their personal belief, usually out of context and ignore all else. If you don’t read your bible then you are easy prey for them.

Take a look at ephesians2:8-9

 

[Godfollower]

Read ephesians 2:8-9

Okay; now you read Matthew 25:31-46, which describes the last judgment:

And when the Son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty. And all nations shall be gathered together before him, and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in:

Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.

Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.

And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.

According to Jesus, one goes to Heaven or Hell because of how one acted in this life. To repeat my earlier post: we are saved by grace alone; if our response to God’s grace is faith that exhibits itself in works we will see God’s face. If all we say is “Lord, lord” and don’t do anything to help our neighbor, we’re no better than the demons (who also believe in Jesus, according to the Bible). Mere belief is not enough; we must act on that belief.

That’s what the passage you cited from Ephesians means. We are saved by grace, not by works, that no man may glory. But Jesus didn’t sacrifice Himself and say “Okay, everyone into Heaven now!” He required us to love our neighbors. If you just go to an altar call and say He’s your Lord and Savior, but then sit on your duff while your neighbor starves to death, you will answer for it.

Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.

(Matthew 7:21). We have to do the will of God to enter into Heaven. What is that will? Love God, and love your neighbor as yourself. (Matthew 22:36-40).

As I said before, good works do not “earn” our way into Heaven, because that is only possible by God’s grace. It’s a free gift. But refusal to do the good works required constitutes refusing that gift, and consequently refusing Heaven.

 

[MGEISING]

Read ephesians 2:8-9

That is only one verse in the whole bible. Are you really really willing to trust in your Salvation … on one or even several verses in Scripture?

Are you willing to trust your salvation on preachers that have no idea of the historical essence of the early church? Do you really believe by asking Christ into your heart at a one-time altar call will give you passage to Heavan … Have you truly read all of Scripture … I think not …

Newbie … read and pray as you read this thread … and ask that God will be with you … and that HIS will, will be done.

God’s Grace,

Mgeising

 

[newbie1234]

That is only one verse in the whole bible. Are you really really willing to trust in your Salvation … on one or even several verses in Scripture?

Are you willing to trust your salvation on preachers that have no idea of the historical essence of the early church? Do you really believe by asking Christ into your heart at a one-time altar call will give you passage to Heavan … Have you truly read all of Scripture … I think not …

Newbie … read and pray as you read this thread … and ask that God will be with you … and that HIS will, will be done.

God’s Grace,

Mgeising

How bout Romans3:28.
I know you already know all the verses that I am going to refer you to.
Our justification is by faith alone.
But our sanctification is a maturing process.
We grow toward santification by our works.
Two different things.

 

[MGEISING]

How bout Romans3:28.
I know you already know all the verses that I am going to refer you to.
Our justification is by faith alone.
But our sanctification is a maturing process.
We grow toward santification by our works.
Two different things.

I would be very interested Newbie to think what your ‘interpretation’ of WORKS is - in this verse?

Very interested indeed!

 

[heisenburg]

Actually ephesians 2:8 is a great verse for CATHOLIC understanding of salvation

(sum up)
"For it is by grace, through faith, apart from works that you are saved.

this does NOT say you are saved by faith alone, it says you are saved by GRACE Alone

take out the prepositional phrases, and you are left with the core sentance

For it is by grace you are saved.

100% accurate.

You have to have faith (true), but ultimatly, it is saying that the initial justification is by Gods GRACE alone and no works affect the GRACE. not FAITH alone.

its what you do with that grace thats important

in Christ

 

[heisenburg]

Romans 3:28

“Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law” NKJV

Yet another good verse, but its interesting to point out exactly what LAW is he talking about…

There are two ways of salvation

1. is the Jewish way (which few could do ) this entailed adherance to lots and lots of laws like you must nto eat ceartain meats, your preists must wear ceartain cloths, etc.
2. Faith and obedience to Christ.

Paul in Romans is constantly comparing what it means to be saved as a Jew and what it means to be saved as a Christian.

So, this statement is 100% correct for the catholic (and protestant) perspective

it says this…

Therefore, we conclude a man is jsutified by his faith and adherance to christ, and Not by adherence to the old jewish law.

The same comparison is true for romans 4:5

A Man is jsutified by his faith and obedience to in christ and not in works of the old law.

(Keep in mind, Paul even went so far as to say if you are edhering to the old law, you are subject to the old law AND CHRIST SACRIFICE AMOUNTS TO NOTHING."

in otherwords, these versus do not say saved by FAITH alone

In Christ

 

[ForwardProgress]

I personally find that the Sola Fidelis side that certain non-Catholics use always comes from Paul’s epistles…which from above you can see really come from Paul trying to tell people that belief in Christ is necessary for salvation, not just following the old convenant; you have to be reborn in the new. That is what I find Paul talks about over and over and over again.

Take a look…whenever you see the scripture ‘backing’ for faith alone it always comes from Paul.

When we look at our actual Lord and Savior, you know, Jesus Christ, he always stresses producing fruit, helping others, showing Love…parable after parable is about what God gives you and how you use it and showing love…the sower, the talents, the virgins, the vineyard, etc…

When you read Paul, keep in mind his audiences…Jesus spoke his parables and lessons most of the time to the general populace.