Salvation

[AnubistheJackal]

If, as Catholics claim, salvation is achieved by faith in Jesus Christ and good works, and concurrently believe there is only “one” heaven (as opposed to Moronic, excuse me, Mormon belief) how is it any way relevant which particular Christian sect one belongs to?

Or, if you disagree with the above, do you contend that a Protestant who does indeed have a faith and practices good works is condemned to hell?

 

[VociMike]

Interestingly, the bible equates faith with obedience. As Catholics we believe that all are called to submit to the Church (the Catholic Church) founded by Christ, and which receives divine authority and guidance. At the same time, we believe that through the Church alone flow certain unique and promised sources of God’s grace, along with the fullness of God’s revelation to us regarding faith and morals. So in the Catholic Church there’s fullness of obedience on the one hand, and fullness of grace and revelation on the other hand.

As soon as one distances himself from the visible Church, he may be entering into disobedience (something only God can judge) and he certainly is outside those sources of grace and revelation only found in the Church. Salvation and sanctification does not become impossible, but it does become more problematic, and it becomes easier to wander off the path, so to speak, and harder to get back to the path.

Does it matter? Does it matter if you take your injured child to a doctor or just keep her home and hope she gets better?

 

[kaycee]

Interestingly, the bible equates faith with obedience. As Catholics we believe that all are called to submit to the Church (the Catholic Church) founded by Christ, and which receives divine authority and guidance. At the same time, we believe that through the Church alone flow certain unique and promised sources of God’s grace, along with the fullness of God’s revelation to us regarding faith and morals. So in the Catholic Church there’s fullness of obedience on the one hand, and fullness of grace and revelation on the other hand.

As soon as one distances himself from the visible Church, he may be entering into disobedience (something only God can judge) and he certainly is outside those sources of grace and revelation only found in the Church. Salvation and sanctification does not become impossible, but it does become more problematic, and it becomes easier to wander off the path, so to speak, and harder to get back to the path.

Does it matter? Does it matter if you take your injured child to a doctor or just keep her home and hope she gets better?

Faith is Not obedience. Saving Faith will produce fruit and obedience, but it is a result of Saving Faith.

 

[VociMike]

Faith is Not obedience. Saving Faith will produce fruit and obedience, but it is a result of Saving Faith.

John 3:36: He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him.

Your comment is a perfect example of how those who are outside of the Catholic Church have separated themselves from the full revelation which God has given us.

 

[AnubistheJackal]

I don’t understand.

Imagine a person who was perhaps raised Catholic and left the church for whatever reason.

This person is faithful to their spouse, active in charity and has a mountain of faith in Jesus Christ.

Based upon your readings of the Bible and the teachings of the Catholic church, is this person likely to go to hell?

 

[VociMike]

I don’t understand.

Imagine a person who was perhaps raised Catholic and left the church for whatever reason.

This person is faithful to their spouse, active in charity and has a mountain of faith in Jesus Christ.

Based upon your readings of the Bible and the teachings of the Catholic church, is this person likely to go to hell?

Very unlikely, based on your description. But they have lived their life more separated from the mind and the grace of God then if they had been Catholic.

 

[Nita]

Faith is Not obedience. Saving Faith will produce fruit and obedience, but it is a result of Saving Faith.

Obedience is a **part of **faith (Romans 1:5 …“the obedience of faith…”).
Without obedience there is no faith - only the “belief” that Jesus is God and died to save man (equivalent to what Satan “believes” James 2:19 “Even the demons believe and shudder.”). Without obedience one can call it “belief”, but it is not “faith”.

Nita

 

[1ke]

I don’t understand.

Imagine a person who was perhaps raised Catholic and left the church for whatever reason.

The reason matters.

A person who knows the Church was founded by Christ and contains the fullness of truth and yet leaves it for “whatever reason” will have to account for that at judgment.

If the person leaves because they are in ignorance, then their culpability may be lessened.

This person is faithful to their spouse, active in charity and has a mountain of faith in Jesus Christ.

Based upon your readings of the Bible and the teachings of the Catholic church, is this person likely to go to hell?

No one can know this but God.

Objectively, if they have rejected the Church **purposely ** knwoing it to be true then yes they are in peril. Outside the Church there is no salvation. If they are *ignorant *of the Church’s true nature and reject it out of that ignorance, then they are still grafted on to the church in an imperfect way and God acknowledges that fact.

 

[Fidelis]

Faith is Not obedience. Saving Faith will produce fruit and obedience, but it is a result of Saving Faith.

The Scriptures make no explicit distinction between faith and “saving” faith. The term is an an artificial construct of Protestant apologists to deny the uncomfortable (for them) plain sense of James 2.

Furthermore, it is absurd to assert that faith **automatically **results in obedience, i.e., the performance of good works. To do so would deny any semblance of free will and personal accountability for our actions or inaction. The New Testament, especially the epistles of St. Paul are filled with exhortations and even commands to Christians --presumably saved and faith-filled – to do some actions and avoid others. If works automatically flowed from “saving faith” most of the NT would be superfluous.

 

[Bishopite]

If, as Catholics claim, salvation is achieved by faith in Jesus Christ and good works, and concurrently believe there is only “one” heaven (as opposed to Moronic, excuse me, Mormon belief) how is it any way relevant which particular Christian sect one belongs to?

So you accept that there are Christian sects outside of Catholicism?
I would ask you which Christian sect rightly divides the word of God? (2 Tim 2:15)

Or, if you disagree with the above, do you contend that a Protestant who does indeed have a faith and practices good works is condemned to hell?/QUOTE]

 

[Bishopite]

Faith is Not obedience. Saving Faith will produce fruit and obedience, but it is a result of Saving Faith.

Faith is obedience indeed. Paul uses the “obedience of faith” in the begining Rom 1:15 and end Rom 16:26 of the book of Romans. Faith is a verb not merely an adjective, faith according to Paul is obedience.

 

[kaycee]

John 3:36: He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him.

Your comment is a perfect example of how those who are outside of the Catholic Church have separated themselves from the full revelation which God has given us.

The RCC has not infallibly interpreted this verse. Your private interpretation is wrong. Jesus says "He who believes in the Son has eternal life"The flip side is those who do not Obey the Gospel, (belief in the Son). Obey can also be translated believe in this verse. It does not matter however,

Joh 1:12 - But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name

A parralell to John 3:36
Joh 3:18 - "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”

Joh 8:24 “Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”

Joh 11:26 and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"

Ga 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, **so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. **

1Ti 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

1Jo 3:23 This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.

1Jo 5:10 The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son.

1Jo 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Thats just the tip of the ice berg of verses that mention believing first. Obedience is a Result!

 

[kaycee]

The Scriptures make no explicit distinction between faith and “saving” faith. The term is an an artificial construct of Protestant apologists to deny the uncomfortable (for them) plain sense of James 2.

So is your faith the same as the demons who shudder?

 

[mikeledes]

Faith is Not obedience. Saving Faith will produce fruit and obedience, but it is a result of Saving Faith.

Acts 5:32

**32"And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him." **

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Fidelis]

So is your faith the same as the demons who shudder?

Nope, because unlike them, my faith is not limited to intellectual assent of God’s existence and attributes. My faith is the basis for my obedience to God.

 

[1ke]

So is your faith the same as the demons who shudder?

James 2:19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

The bible does **not **say that the demons have faith.

The bible says the demons believe God exists.

Of course they do, they knew God and rebeled against him. Demons are not ignorant of God’s existence. They lack faith in him, and refuse to serve him.

Personally, I *believe *demons exist but I do not have *faith *in demons.

 

[kaycee]

Acts 5:32

32"And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him."

God Bless,
Michael

Yes, those who obey the Gospel. God gives the Holy Spirit to those who obey the Gospel!

Acts 10:42 "And He ordered us to preach to the people, and solemnly to testify that this is the One who has been appointed by God as Judge of the living and the dead. 43 “Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.” 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. 45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, 47 “Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?”

 

[VociMike]

For the OP, you’re getting a first-hand look in this thread at how many Protestants are adamant about rejecting any need for obedience in order to be saved. They are equally adamant about rejecting the graces which God offers through the Catholic Church, and the revelation which God offers through the Catholic Church.

They can be saved in spite of all this, but they’re doing it with three hands tied behind their backs.

 

[kaycee]

For the OP, you’re getting a first-hand look in this thread at how many Protestants are adamant about rejecting any need for obedience in order to be saved. They are equally adamant about rejecting the graces which God offers through the Catholic Church, and the revelation which God offers through the Catholic Church.

They can be saved in spite of all this, but they’re doing it with three hands tied behind their backs.

And it is certainly just as obvious that RC salvation is synergistic requiring works to “attain” salvation.

 

[VociMike]

And it is certainly just as obvious that RC salvation is synergistic requiring works to “attain” salvation.

Yes, salvation requires active cooperation with God, whatever that may look like in each individual situation. That’s not a problem, it’s a gift and a blessing.