M
mikeledes
Guest
A theology that teaches salvation by faith alone is also “synergistic” because it involves human cooperation, a human response.
God Bless,
Michael
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God Bless,
Michael
B
Bishopite
Guest
Again, you’ve falsely paralleled having to do works of mercy [love] with the false idea that Catholicism teaches strict earning gets oneself to heaven, nothing can be further from the truth. Synergism IS VERY Scriptural…
**"The Language of Resistance
**For example, with regard to resisting God, we read: “You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you” (Acts 7:51).Mark 16:20 we read:
“We know that in everything God *works for good with *(sunergei eis agathon) those who love him, who are called according to his purpose” (Romans 8:28).
Here we have another declaration of God working with men. As Protestant theologian Dale Moody puts it:
“God works with those who love him toward the goal of the good. Murray insists that this is all ‘divine monergism,’ but the Greek verb is sunergei, from which the idea of a synergism between the will of God and the will of man comes. The . . . Calvinistic tradition will insert its ideas even if the very word of the text must be rejected!” (Commentary on Romans, 221)
“And they went forth and preached everywhere, while the Lord *worked with *(sunergountos) them and confirmed the message by the signs that attended it. Amen” (Mark 16:20).
*“Working together with *(sunergountes) him, then, we entreat you not to accept the grace of God in vain” (2 Corinthians 6:1)."
cin.org/users/james/fileh…s/cooperat.htm
K
kaycee
Guest
Works create debt and destroy Grace, unmerited favor.
Rom 11:5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. 7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened; 8 just as it is written,
K
kaycee
Guest
No one is not saying that we are Not workers in the field for God. God uses us to preach the Gospel to the lost. We have been given good works to do.
We are saying God saves us without us working for it. It is by Grace, unmerited favor. We certainly do good works, after God saves us by Grace Thru Faith.
F
Fidelis
Guest
And if you DON’T do those works that God has given you to do, what then? What is the consequence? Will you still be saved, or not?
If so, then why bother to do them if, ultimately, they don’t mean anything?
If not, then works (i.e. obedience) is a necessary part your salvation, which means you agree with the Catholic Church, thank you very much. :tiphat:
V
VociMike
Guest
So on one hand we’re told by Protestants that works are an inevitable outcome of being saved, and on the other we’re told they “create debt and destroy grace”.
So I must conclude that being saved inevitably creates debt and destroys grace. That just doesn’t…sound…right…
Or I could trust in Christ’s Church and her teachings. Yep, much less confusing.
J
JMJ_coder
Guest
Hello,
)
Catechism
1814 Faith is the theological virtue by which we believe in God and believe all that He has said and revealed to us, and that Holy Church proposes for our belief, because He is Truth itself. By faith “man freely commits his entire self to God.”(DV 5.) For this reason the believer seeks to know and do God’s will. “The righteous shall live by faith.” Living faith “work(s) through charity.”(⇒ Rom 1:17; ⇒ Gal 5:6.)
1815 The gift of faith remains in one who has not sinned against it.(Cf. Council of Trent (1547): DS 1545.) But “faith apart from works is dead”: (⇒ Jas 2:26.) when it is deprived of hope and love, faith does not fully unite the believer to Christ and does not make him a living member of His Body.
1816 The disciple of Christ must not only keep the faith and live on it, but also profess it, confidently bear witness to it, and spread it: “All however must be prepared to confess Christ before men and to follow Him along the way of the Cross, amidst the persecutions which the Church never lacks.”(LG 42; cf. DH 14.) Service of and witness to the faith are necessary for salvation: “So every one who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father Who is in Heaven; but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father Who is in Heaven.”(⇒ Mt 10:32-33.)
Knowing what Faith is, we can see why true, full, and complete Faith in Christ cannot exist outside of the Catholic Church for the fullness of revealed Truth does not exist outside the Catholic Church.
The first question that needs to be answered is 'what is faith?". Faith is not merely saying “I believe in Jesus” - that has no meaning. Believe what? Nor is faith believing in the mere existence of God. Satan believes in the existence of God, and look where he’s at (you gotta love Father Corapi
)Catechism
1814 Faith is the theological virtue by which we believe in God and believe all that He has said and revealed to us, and that Holy Church proposes for our belief, because He is Truth itself. By faith “man freely commits his entire self to God.”(DV 5.) For this reason the believer seeks to know and do God’s will. “The righteous shall live by faith.” Living faith “work(s) through charity.”(⇒ Rom 1:17; ⇒ Gal 5:6.)
1815 The gift of faith remains in one who has not sinned against it.(Cf. Council of Trent (1547): DS 1545.) But “faith apart from works is dead”: (⇒ Jas 2:26.) when it is deprived of hope and love, faith does not fully unite the believer to Christ and does not make him a living member of His Body.
1816 The disciple of Christ must not only keep the faith and live on it, but also profess it, confidently bear witness to it, and spread it: “All however must be prepared to confess Christ before men and to follow Him along the way of the Cross, amidst the persecutions which the Church never lacks.”(LG 42; cf. DH 14.) Service of and witness to the faith are necessary for salvation: “So every one who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father Who is in Heaven; but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father Who is in Heaven.”(⇒ Mt 10:32-33.)
Knowing what Faith is, we can see why true, full, and complete Faith in Christ cannot exist outside of the Catholic Church for the fullness of revealed Truth does not exist outside the Catholic Church.
J
John_Hiner
Guest
Laudatur Iesus Christus.
Let me offer a parable: There are two men. One is called by the Lover and given a note to be delivered to the Beloved. The first man takes the note and delivers it.
The second man is called to the Lover as well, but he refuses to take the note. Rather, he buys pen and paper and writes a note of his own. He tries to make it as close as he can to what he thinks the Lover’s note said; he even tries to imitate the Lover’s signature as nearly as he can. He then takes his version of the note and delivers it to the Beloved.
Is the note delivered by the second man a note from the Lover?
Is there anything the second man can do on his own to make his note into a note from the Lover to the Beloved?
This is the difference between the Apostolic succession and the lack of it.
Spiritus Sapientiae nobiscum.
John Hiner
Let me offer a parable: There are two men. One is called by the Lover and given a note to be delivered to the Beloved. The first man takes the note and delivers it.
The second man is called to the Lover as well, but he refuses to take the note. Rather, he buys pen and paper and writes a note of his own. He tries to make it as close as he can to what he thinks the Lover’s note said; he even tries to imitate the Lover’s signature as nearly as he can. He then takes his version of the note and delivers it to the Beloved.
Is the note delivered by the second man a note from the Lover?
Is there anything the second man can do on his own to make his note into a note from the Lover to the Beloved?
This is the difference between the Apostolic succession and the lack of it.
Spiritus Sapientiae nobiscum.
John Hiner
P
Philthy
Guest
this is redundant in Catholic theology, good works are inseparable from faith in Jesus Christ. You cannot claim to have faith in Christ and fail to love one another through good works. It is known as faith working through love.
jackal:
Please be advised: this is a violation of posting protocol: disparaging comments to persons of any faith are off limits.
jackal:
It is relevant because the full Truth regarding faith in Jesus Christ (along with Grace) will aid in helping you to follow God’s will and persevere the trials of the world. For example: Scripture tells us that “Anyone who says he loves God yet hates his neighbor” is a liar and is not truly one of the faithful (cf 1John). Some might regard your comment about Mormons as hateful and therefore might judge you as “hating your neighbor”. If they were correct about you this would certainly jeopardize your salvation - that is the full Truth, as opposed to someone who thinks that disparaging others who are following God’s Will to the best of their ability is perfectly fine as long as you “have faith in Jesus”. We need the Truth, the whole Truth and nothing but the Truth.
jackal:
Catholics dont judge anyone as condemned to hell. That is God’s business.
P
Philthy
Guest
Why is it that Protestants are so comfortable saying that “The saved will certainly do good works” but they can never comfortably say, “If you do not do good works you are certainly not saved”? They seem to be one and the same…
And please, I beg any of you who respond to not simply say,
“Because we are saved by grace through faith alone”
B
Bishopite
Guest
Of course God give us the grace to have the faith and do the works, however those works are part of the gift of grace God gives us with His grace this is OLD theological news. Catholicism has taught this way back at the council of Orange 529 against pelagianism…
**CANON 18. “**That grace is not preceded by merit. Recompense is due to good works if they are performed; but grace, to which we have no claim, precedes them, to enable them to be done.”
Works given to us by God through faith ARE a grace.
God doesn’t just use us, we cooperate in salvation otherwise we are reduced to autamatons; even the average fundamentalist would affirm this. You can’t be saved if you don’t do what Christ say to do like obeying His commandments.
In Mark 8:24 Jesus commands us to “take up your cross and follow Me.” If you don’t take up your cross, then you aren’t following Jesus, if you aren’t following Jesus then you aren’t saved.
Monergism says that God does everything for our salvation and we do nothing and this completely false. Synergism as I’ve shown from scripture is precisely the biblical model, that God gives us the grace to have the faith and we do works in cooperation with His grace and that WE do the works and if we don’t then we don’t have true faith as James says in 2:21-25, but one of intellectual acceptance only like the demons.
“Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?”
Our works complete our faith. Even Dale Moody affirms this and Charles Ryrie a fundamentalist Baptist theologian in his Ryrie study bible says this in his footnotes about James 2:24 and faith and works…
"“Unproductive faith cannot save, because it is not geniune faith. Faith and works are like a two-coupon ticket to heaven. The coupon of works is not good for passage, and the coupon of faith in not valid if detached from works.” (Charles Ryrie NAS study bible page 1860)
Notice that Ryrie is admitting that faith and works ARE required for salvation; without works ones faith is non-geniune faith—with works it is complete.
Ryries two-coupon ticket to heaven means if one only has works without faith without then that person is a coupon short of going to heaven, if a person has faith without works then that person is a coupon short of going to heaven.
V
VociMike
Guest
I have taken a similar line of thought by asking “works don’t save” people directly: Can you (not the thief on the cross, not a deathbed convert, but you) be saved without good works?
The way they squirm around that simple question is something to behold!
F
Fidelis
Guest
The silence is deafening…
J
John_Hiner
Guest
Laudatur Iesus Christus.
It seems that this discussion may under-estimate the Sacramental nature of the problem. It is not “good works” that save, but Jesus’ works. Grace is the life of the Trinity (when used in this sense it is often called “sanctifying grace”). Our love for God does not save us. It is our sharing in God’s love for God that saves. The Sacraments make this possible.
Without the Sacraments of the New Law we are in the same position as the Israelites of the Old Law; at best we can try by our own will and efforts to imitate the forms of God’s life. This is the position in which most Protestant traditions place their adherents. It is almost ironic that theories which claim to eschew any reliance on man’s own efforts are in fact left in the position where the source of hope for salvation is entirely dependent on man’s willingness to “give himself to Jesus.”
By declining the Sacraments these theories divorce human efforts to “follow” Christ from His work and commandments.
The question is whether this truncated encounter with the Life of God is enough. It is true that God the Father made each person as a gift for Christ. Therefore the voluntary “delivery” of oneself (or one’s children) to Christ is a work of the Father in which one co-operates. The question is, to what extent does this “delivery” have effect, if one fails –not necessarily refusing, but objectively failing – to take up Christ’s work, the Seven Sacraments; if one substitutes one’s own “good works” for Christ’s sacrifice, rather than merging the two as Christ prescribed in the Holy Mass and in His Church.
It is possible that some individuals will be saved by this truncated experience of grace. As a systematic approach to salvation, however, it is more likely to leave one outside of the Life of the Trinity than inside. The diabolical part is the similarity in appearance between a person on the outside of grace imitating the forms of “good works” to those one in a state of grace performing the same acts and works. Sadly, the one is the means of salvation; the other is merely well intended human effort – which is insufficient to save.
Spiritus Sapientiae nobiscum.
John Hiner
It seems that this discussion may under-estimate the Sacramental nature of the problem. It is not “good works” that save, but Jesus’ works. Grace is the life of the Trinity (when used in this sense it is often called “sanctifying grace”). Our love for God does not save us. It is our sharing in God’s love for God that saves. The Sacraments make this possible.
Without the Sacraments of the New Law we are in the same position as the Israelites of the Old Law; at best we can try by our own will and efforts to imitate the forms of God’s life. This is the position in which most Protestant traditions place their adherents. It is almost ironic that theories which claim to eschew any reliance on man’s own efforts are in fact left in the position where the source of hope for salvation is entirely dependent on man’s willingness to “give himself to Jesus.”
By declining the Sacraments these theories divorce human efforts to “follow” Christ from His work and commandments.
The question is whether this truncated encounter with the Life of God is enough. It is true that God the Father made each person as a gift for Christ. Therefore the voluntary “delivery” of oneself (or one’s children) to Christ is a work of the Father in which one co-operates. The question is, to what extent does this “delivery” have effect, if one fails –not necessarily refusing, but objectively failing – to take up Christ’s work, the Seven Sacraments; if one substitutes one’s own “good works” for Christ’s sacrifice, rather than merging the two as Christ prescribed in the Holy Mass and in His Church.
It is possible that some individuals will be saved by this truncated experience of grace. As a systematic approach to salvation, however, it is more likely to leave one outside of the Life of the Trinity than inside. The diabolical part is the similarity in appearance between a person on the outside of grace imitating the forms of “good works” to those one in a state of grace performing the same acts and works. Sadly, the one is the means of salvation; the other is merely well intended human effort – which is insufficient to save.
Spiritus Sapientiae nobiscum.
John Hiner
D
DJim
Guest
Hi, Kaycee–
Try it this way:
GRACE first, then our response to it–a movement of the intellect and will–we call it “faith”.
But wait–when we move our intellect and will, isn’t that a work? Something we do?
Thus faith is merely the first required “work” that is a response to grace. Continued works that respond to grace would result in obedience.
Does that sound plausible to you?
DJim
Try it this way:
GRACE first, then our response to it–a movement of the intellect and will–we call it “faith”.
But wait–when we move our intellect and will, isn’t that a work? Something we do?
Thus faith is merely the first required “work” that is a response to grace. Continued works that respond to grace would result in obedience.
Does that sound plausible to you?
DJim
P
pharmacistUH
Guest
I know this is off topic, but how do you guys know so much about the Catholic faith to defend it so quickly and accurately? I want to be prepared for the future if someone should ask me about the Catholic faith.
F
Fidelis
Guest
A lot of us have been at this for a long time. You can learn a lot by being faced with challenges to the Faith.
A good place to start is by reading the tracts and articles on the main page of this website and by listening to some of the Catholic Answers Live shows in the archives. Hanging around these forums and reading how others handle objections helps too.
As you go along, you’ll discover a lot of good resources in the form of books, tapes/CD’s, apologetics magazines and websites. Here are a few recommendations:
**BOOKS
·Holy Bible (NAB, RSVCE, Jerusalem Bible)
·Catechism of the Catholic Church
·Catholicism and Fundamentalism—Karl Keating
·Beginning Apologetics Series—Fr. Frank Chacon & Jim Burnham
·Nuts & Bolts—Tim Staples
·Handbook of Christian Apologetics—Peter Kreeft & Ronald Tacelli
·Theology for Beginners—Frank Sheed
·Surprised by Truth 1, 2 & 3—ed. Patrick Madrid
·Rome Sweet Home—Scott & Kimberly Hahn
·Reasons to Believe—Scott Hahn
·Crossing The Tiber—Steve Ray
·Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic—David Currie
·Any Friend of God’s Is A Friend of Mine—Patrick Madrid
·Why Is That In Tradition? —Patrick Madrid
·Where Is That In the Bible? —Patrick Madrid
·Answer Me This!—Patrick Madrid
·By What Authority? —Mark Shea
·This Is My Body…This Is My Blood—Mark Shea
MAGAZINES
·Lay Witness
·This Rock
AUDIOTAPES & CD’s
·St. Joseph’s Communications—P.O. Box 720, W. Covina, CA 91793 (626) 331-3549; www.saintjoe.com
·Basilica Press—P.O. 675205 Rancho Santa Fe, CA 92067
(888) 396-2339; www.basilica.com
·Catholic Answers—P.O. Box 17490 San Diego, CA 92177
(888) 291-8000; www.catholic.com
INTERNET
·Catholics United for the Faith—www.cuf.org
·Catholic Answers—www.catholic.com
·Scripture Catholic—www.scripturecatholic.com
·The Bible Christian Society (free apologetics talks)—www.biblechristiansociety.com
·Envoy Magazine (articles from back issues)—www.envoymagazine.com
EVANGELIZATION
·Search and Rescue—Patrick Madrid
·How Not to Share Your Faith—Jim Burnham
·12 Painless Ways To Evangelize—Catholic Answers**
It won’t happen overnight, but you don’t need to know everything at once. Just take the topics as they come and you’ll slowly bit surely become an apologist!
K
kaycee
Guest
In relation to salvation! The RCC states one must cooperate for infused grace to attain heaven, this creates a debt/payment situation which is antithetical to Grace (unmerited favor).
Grace is not a form of payment for good works. Paul states that wages paid for works nullifies Grace. Grace is unmerited favor, works create a merit system, “merited grace”, any oxymoron.
Less confusing??
One must remain in the Church, yes, no, maybe? Apparently all correct answers to some degree.
One must believe all RC dogma, for salvation including doctrines totally unheard of by 1st century Christians such as the assumption, purgatory, prayer to Mary, Papal infallibility, etc…
One must remain in a “state of Grace” infused righteousness.
One can recieve communion, attend mass and confession “religiously” and still die out of a state of grace.
One must do works to cooporate with in salvation, nullifying Grace.
One Must attend any Holy Day of Obligation declared by the Pope/magisterium on penalty of Mortal sin.
One must believe that Tradition, Magisterium and Scripture form the Word of God and are equal, However Tradition and Magisterium are “more equal” and can dictate what Scripture really means.
I am sure I have missed some.
Other than that and all the private interpretations of Canon Law, and Traditionalists, Conservatives, Sedevacantists, Opus Dei, Liberals, and all the stripes in between its pretty simple, I agree.
N
Norway
Guest
What you’ve just said isn’t accurate (unless I’m misunderstanding you).
Salvation in the Catholic Church is pretty simple really. the Catechism says that one must only follow their conscience, and always seek to educate their conscience. It’s that simple.
Extreme example:
If one honestly feels their conscience is telling them that Catholic teaching is wrong, and if they’ve done everything they can to examine that belief and educate their conscience, then they are still saved even though they don’t believe any of the catholic teachings (provided they still follow their conscience).
Now this is an extreme case. If one were to honestly educate and listen to their conscience, then they would not be so diametrically opposed to the RCC’s teachings. God would use their “asking seeking and knocking” to lead them into deeper truth. However, it is a possible scenario if someone were to die very young or some other situation that is out of the ordinary.
Salvation in the Catholic Church is pretty simple really. the Catechism says that one must only follow their conscience, and always seek to educate their conscience. It’s that simple.
Extreme example:
If one honestly feels their conscience is telling them that Catholic teaching is wrong, and if they’ve done everything they can to examine that belief and educate their conscience, then they are still saved even though they don’t believe any of the catholic teachings (provided they still follow their conscience).
Now this is an extreme case. If one were to honestly educate and listen to their conscience, then they would not be so diametrically opposed to the RCC’s teachings. God would use their “asking seeking and knocking” to lead them into deeper truth. However, it is a possible scenario if someone were to die very young or some other situation that is out of the ordinary.
K
kaycee
Guest
So, Faith in Jesus is a good idea but not mandatory?
It seems the answers are different depending on what kind of Catholic you talk to.
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