Same God?

[CheesusPowerKid]

But would you say that one who believes and lives a life of sin deserves a place in Heaven over someone who never knew God but led a life a charity and love? I guess the believer would know of God’s forgiveness and grace, and if he never sought it then he wouldn’t be a true believer…but then what about the person who did good, and just never realized that it was God that influenced their lives and choices and therefore never knew to accept Him, would he be less worthy than the believer who knew God but chose to pick when he wanted His guidance or not?

I think what I want to say is that God knows more than what we can ever see or find on earth…He knows when the believer is turning his back, and he also knows the soul that has always searched for good but never knew where to look…or, even if God showed him the truth, he never knew that it was God who did it because he didn’t know God. God knows all of this…and I guess I want to believe that a truly good, forgiving, loving, compassionate, and especially all-knowing God would see all of these factors and take them into account. And if one of His children remained lost his whole life, never knowing the light of Christ but truly and honestly deserving it, would God want to give him every single last chance to know Christ? I personally just think that there’s so much that we don’t know that it is impossible for us to try to understand for ourselves who God condemns and who He embraces…and therefore I say just leave it up to Him. BELIEVE in Him wholey and fully, but realize that, in the end, we don’t have all the answers and He does. The Bible and the Church give us as much as we can physically comprehend…but there HAS to be so much more! things our brains could never grasp until we reach Heaven and are enlightened…and because of that, is it our place to ever verbally condemn someone? To say that, because they don’t have this or they don’t do that, because, as far as we can see, Christ has never been a part of their life, we won’t meet them in Heaven? I think that all of that should be left to God, and He probably gets a great kick out of it when we try to figure all these things out for ourselves when we should leave it up to Him.

Now, by no means am I saying that we should just keep our faiths to ourselves and think that everyone has a passage to Heaven whether we say something or not…definitely not. I think it’s our duty as Catholics and Christians to live our faiths as openly as possible, making it our purpose to serve Christ and bring others to His service. It’s our duty to spread the Truth and firmly believe in everything our faith teaches…but condemn others if they just won’t budge? keep pushing, keep trying, keep believing, yes…but understand that humans will never agree, even when it is clearly spelled out to us in His book and His teachings…understand that, somehow, God has His own plan, His own way…and maybe what we see is completely blinded.

I’m really not sure where I’m going with this…I think I’m kinding just thinking out loud…I don’t mean to sound indifferent at all…I don’t mean that…I firmly and truly believe that the Catholic Church is THE Church on earth, God’s church, and everyone must come to it…but I think there are so many different ways that we could never imagine with the our simplistic minds. God has infinite plans and ways and understanding, and I think that it is our job to realize that and remember how limited our knowlege is compared to His. And from that understand that He knows others in ways we could never imagine…and from that realize that this is an argument no one can ever win…we can debate for the rest of our lives, and still never have the answers God has…AH! sorry, I really have no idea where this has gone…like I said, I’m on a lot of medicine right now and my thinking is a little off…but yeah…if anyone is slightly catching on to what I’m saying, a better explaination than mine would be awesome if not, then I’ll try again at a later time when I’m not sick

In Him,
Britty

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

aridite:

OK, but why? What about your experience and/or the Qur’an indicates that theirs is a different “god” (different referent) and not just a misunderstanding (different sense) of the **same God **(same referent)?

I would say that the use of the word, “professing”, shows that LG is not saying that they worship the same God but that they profess to worship the same God.

Those two things are not necessairly the samething.

Let me clarify this as I thought about it at length last night and this morning. Let me know what you think of this.

Now, as the Catechism says, Muslims “profess” to hold the faith of Abraham. Now for us to say that they are correct and that they worship the same God as us then we must also believe them when they “profess” that the Qur’an was given to them by God as the God they worship is revealed to them though the Qur’an.

Now we know that the Qur’an is not from God for two reasons, 1) the God of the Qur’an is in no way the same God of the Bible and 2) according to the Catechism, paragraphs 66 and 67, there will be no further public revelation.

So if the Qur’an is not from God, then the God revealed within it can not be the same God that we worship.

Now I am not denying that there might be some truth found within Islam, just as there is some truth found within all religions, I just can not say that they worship the same God on the sole basis that they only worship one God.

 

[aridite]

ByzCath:

Now we know that the Qur’an is not from God for two reasons, 1) the God of the Qur’an is in no way the same God of the Bible

I don’t know this. This is just what is in dispute. Until we get clear on whether Islam worships the same or a different (non-existent) God, it does not make sense to draw further conclusions.

I will tell you why I think that the God of Islam is the same God as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, Who is the same God as Jesus. Correct me if what I say about the God of Islam contradicts what the Qur’an teaches. As I understand Muslim’s understanding of their God, He is the only one there is, He is Supreme in Being (there is nothing greater than Him), He created everything other than Himself out of nothing pre-existing, and He is uncreated.

True, Muslims do not understand that this One God is also Three Persons – that further revelation came through the God the Son when He became Man. But because the Muslim God is (or, is professed to be – I don’t think there is a logical difference) Unique, Supreme, Creator and Uncreated, He coincides with the essential attributes that Jews and Christians acknowledge to belong to God.

He also has other attributes that only Christians know about: is Triune, became Incarnate, redeems men through His blood, adopts men as His sons to share in the Divine Nature. There are also some attributes about which Christians, Jews and Muslims dispute: that God is Master not a Father; is vengeful, not merciful; spoke to Mohammed. But, because the God of Islam and the God of Jesus and the God of Abraham all share in the same essential attributes, especially of being unique and supreme, I am confident they are different names or discriptions (different senses) of the same God (same referent).

I would go so far as to say that someone who believed God was callous, cruel or indifferent, but the sole creator (though limited in power), is talking about the same God as I am, but that he/she is mistaken about His attributes. Heck, I will even grant that Mormon’s and I are talking about the same God, even though the Mormon Heavenly Father only coincides with the real God as being the Father (though not creator, I don’t think) of us all and Jesus’ Father, just for the sake of engaging in rational discourse with them.

BTW, simply because the Qur’an gets so much wrong about the One True God is enough to show that it is not inspired by that same God. It is not necessary to maintain that because it gets so much wrong about the One True God that it is talking about a different (non-existent) being. It gets enough right about the God it is talking about for us to identify Him with the God we worship. This is not a wholesale endorsement of the Qur’an, just an acknowledgement that it got something right, that it contains some small truth about God.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

aridite:

BTW, simply because the Qur’an gets so much wrong about the One True God is enough to show that it is not inspired by that same God. It is not necessary to maintain that because it gets so much wrong about the One True God that it is talking about a different (non-existent) being. It gets enough right about the God it is talking about for us to identify Him with the God we worship. This is not a wholesale endorsement of the Qur’an, just an acknowledgement that it got something right, that it contains some small truth about God.

This is where you have it wrong.

Public revelation is closed. This is what the Church teaches and has taught. This is expressed in paragraphs 66 and 67 of the Catechism.

There will be no more public revelation. So the Qur’an is not from God. To say otherwise is to separate yourself from Catholic Teachings.

 

[aridite]

ByzCath:

This is where you have it wrong.

Public revelation is closed. This is what the Church teaches and has taught. This is expressed in paragraphs 66 and 67 of the Catechism.

There will be no more public revelation. So the Qur’an is not from God. To say otherwise is to separate yourself from Catholic Teachings.

You are absolutely right. I agree totally. Public revelation is closed. I believe all that the Holy Catholic Church teaches, professes and holds to be true.

This is what I said. The Qur’an is NOT inspired by God. The reason I know this, in addition to the declaration of the Church telling me that public revelation is closed, is that the Qur’an gets a lot of things about God wrong. It does not follow, though, that the Qur’an is discribing a different God than the One Whom Jesus revealed. The Qur’an is describing the One True God, but does it badly, mixing in many, many errors.

But because the Qur’an is not inspired by God, it does not mean it was inspired by something else, a false god. (There is no God but God. If someone is praying to different “god,” he is praying to nothing – his name “God” refers to what does not exist.) I do not think the Qur’an was inspired, at all. Mohammed made it up – either maliciously, or from delusions. It simply does not follow that because the Qur’an is not inspired, and that it says mostly false things about God, that it is therefore talking about a different god. (In fact, for it to say false things about the One True God, it has to be refering to the One True God.) Despite all that is wrong in it, it is right, and LG16 is right, in identifying the God which Muslims worship with the God of the Bible.

It is interesting you focused on what I introduced with “BTW”.

What about the main point of my post? How do you know that the God of the Qur’an is not the same God of the Bible? Simply because the Qur’an is not inspired? I think I have explained how something which was not inspired may still describe the One True God. Even Aristotle, a pagan, was able to understand some things about God (though, for sure, not that He is a Trinity of Persons). The Metaphysics of Aristotle is not any more inspired than the Qur’an – they are both not inspired, at all.

Why am I not justified in identifying the God of the Qur’an with the God of the Bible on the basis that they share the same essential attributes?

 

[barsapp]

I have little time today to think about this interesting thread. But I want to comment on some statements made here.

Regarding the Lumen Gentium, it is not so clear that each and every statement incorporated there must be considered “dogmatic”. The same on the letter of Pope St. Gregory VII. Those phrases must be considered in their own historical context.

Now I want to quote aridite: “I’m confident that I do not think exactly the same way you do about God, but you will grant that we are talking about the same God. Why not with muslims?”

I think that is not a comparable situation. We (you and I) share the same communion, belong to the same Church, profess the same faith, and worship the same true God. None of this can apply to Muslims.

We know that God revealed Himself in the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, Our Lord Jesus Christ. This was absolutely necessary for mankind to know the true nature of the only true God. One could say: “We overlap in confessing the “one merciful God””. So, they conclude, “we believe in the same God”. But the question here is that the word “God” has a different content. If you say the word “God” without any specific reference on its content, you are saying nothing. This is the reason why it is possible to justify anything you want wording “God”.

The muslims believe in a false god in the sense that their god is not real, not genuine, arising from mistaken ideas and contrary to truth. On false gods you have many sayings in the Bible, that I do not want to quote by heart, because I’m not home right now.

Finally a little reference to another quote. CheesusPowerKid states: “what about the person who did good?” Here arises the question: If going to heaven is only a question of “being good”, why did Christ send their apostles to teach the gospel and baptize people?

Also, “maybe what we see is completely blinded”. After Christ, we are still so blind?

Also, “remember how limited our knowledge is compared to His”. This is why the Second Person of the Holy Trinity incarnated, to let us know, love, worship, the only true God in the proper way. It is necessary to be good, it is also important and probably more important, to know the truth.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

aridite:

You are absolutely right. I agree totally. Public revelation is closed. I believe all that the Holy Catholic Church teaches, professes and holds to be true.

This is what I said. The Qur’an is NOT inspired by God.

Ok, sorry for the misunderstanding on that point.

The reason I know this, in addition to the declaration of the Church telling me that public revelation is closed, is that the Qur’an gets a lot of things about God wrong. It does not follow, though, that the Qur’an is discribing a different God than the One Whom Jesus revealed. The Qur’an is describing the One True God, but does it badly, mixing in many, many errors.

This is where you lose me.

Let me give you an example of why I think your statement is wrong.

I am 6 feet tall, 175 pounds, blond hair, blue eyes. Now if someone writes a description of me and it says that I am 5 foot 8 inches tall, 123 pounds, blond hair, and one blue eye and one green eye. Even though that person swears that their written description is about me, they even “profess” it, that does not make it so.

This is why I do not believe the God of Islam as revealed in the Qur’an is the same God we worship. Now some of the attributes of the God in the Qur’an may match, just as parts of the desciption above might match, but that does not mean they are the same.

 

[Saint_Andrew]

Hello

Okay but at the end of the day the different religions still lead to the Creator in different ways, if there was more than one God the world will be destroyed think about that?

God Bless
Saint Andrew.

itsjustdave1988:

Hmmmm… no. It is the understanding that truth cannot contradict truth which causes the disagreements. Catholicism and Islam and Mormonism contradict one another. There may be “rays of truth” in each. But, they cannot all be true.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Saint Andrew:

Hello

Okay but at the end of the day the different religions still lead to the Creator in different ways, if there was more than one God the world will be destroyed think about that?

God Bless
Saint Andrew.

No.

There is only one God and there is only one path to God.

While other religions may reflect a very small part of the Truth, they are not a path to the Creator.

Your last part, about the world being destroyed, is nonsense as there is only one God, but not every religion worships that one God.

 

[aridite]

ByzCath:

Let me give you an example of why I think your statement is wrong.

I am 6 feet tall, 175 pounds, blond hair, blue eyes. Now if someone writes a description of me and it says that I am 5 foot 8 inches tall, 123 pounds, blond hair, and one blue eye and one green eye. Even though that person swears that their written description is about me, they even “profess” it, that does not make it so.

This is why I do not believe the God of Islam as revealed in the Qur’an is the same God we worship. Now some of the attributes of the God in the Qur’an may match, just as parts of the desciption above might match, but that does not mean they are the same.

OK – I think we are starting to get somewhere. What attributes of the God of the Qur’an make it untrue to identify Him with the God of the Bible? If the Qur’an says that its God is unique, supreme, uncreated and creator (and I think it does), isn’t that enough for us (LG 16 and myself) to recognize that it really is the God of the Bible?

Wouldn’t it be like saying you’re 6 ft. tall, 180 lbs., light brown hair, blue eyes? I’m pretty close. But because we are agreed that we are referring to the same man, we are able to disagree about whether you weigh 175 or 180 lbs and what color hair you have. So with Islam: unless they are describing the same God, but describing Him as a non-Trinity, when if fact He is a Trinity, we are not really disagreeing with Islam about the truth of their description of God. They are even able to be wrong only because they and we are talking about the same God. And this is what allows us to engage in fruitful discussions about the true attributes of God. If they are talking about a different god, they are wrong in a different and more profound sense that makes discussion almost impossible.

The general question is how close do two descriptions of God have to be in order for them to be referring to the same God, but disagreeing about what attributes He has? If all the attributes were the same in the two descriptions, there would be no disagreement. (I don’t think this ever happens with real people; there is always some differences. How much is acceptible?) If any difference in attribute meant a difference in referrent, then we each have a different God.

I propose that any being that is acknowledged to the unique, supreme, uncreated and the creator should be identified as the God of the Bible. (I would also be willing to identify God with a person’s description that was considerably less than this.) The God of the Qur’an fits this description. Therefore, the God of the Qur’an is the same God as the God of the Bible.

 

[aridite]

Saint Andrew:

if there was more than one God the world will be destroyed think about that?

God Bless
Saint Andrew.

If there was more than one God, one of them would not be God. If there were more than one God, one would have to have some attribute or perfection that the other did not have, in order for it to be distinguished from the other. If it has attributes that are distinct from its nature, then it is composed and so created. If it is created, it is not God. If it has a perfection the other does not have, the other does not have all perfections and so is not supreme, and so that other is not God. There cannot be more than one God because there cannot be more than one Supreme Being.

This is a very abbreviated demonstration of God’s Unicity, Perfection and Supremecy given by an 11th c. Muslim philosopher, Ibn Sina (Avicenna). I think it is a good proof of God’s unicity, but since Ibn Sina viewed God as unique, it is also a good proof that Ibn Sina was referring to the same God Christians believe in. Thomas Aquinas also thught this was a good proof for God’s unicity since he uses it thoughout his writings. St. Thomas also thought Muslims were referring to the same God.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

aridite:

OK – I think we are starting to get somewhere. What attributes of the God of the Qur’an make it untrue to identify Him with the God of the Bible? If the Qur’an says that its God is unique, supreme, uncreated and creator (and I think it does), isn’t that enough for us (LG 16 and myself) to recognize that it really is the God of the Bible?

Wouldn’t it be like saying you’re 6 ft. tall, 180 lbs., light brown hair, blue eyes? I’m pretty close. But because we are agreed that we are referring to the same man, we are able to disagree about whether you weigh 175 or 180 lbs and what color hair you have. So with Islam: unless they are describing the same God, but describing Him as a non-Trinity, when if fact He is a Trinity, we are not really disagreeing with Islam about the truth of their description of God. They are even able to be wrong only because they and we are talking about the same God. And this is what allows us to engage in fruitful discussions about the true attributes of God. If they are talking about a different god, they are wrong in a different and more profound sense that makes discussion almost impossible.

The general question is how close do two descriptions of God have to be in order for them to be referring to the same God, but disagreeing about what attributes He has? If all the attributes were the same in the two descriptions, there would be no disagreement. (I don’t think this ever happens with real people; there is always some differences. How much is acceptible?) If any difference in attribute meant a difference in referrent, then we each have a different God.

I propose that any being that is acknowledged to the unique, supreme, uncreated and the creator should be identified as the God of the Bible. (I would also be willing to identify God with a person’s description that was considerably less than this.) The God of the Qur’an fits this description. Therefore, the God of the Qur’an is the same God as the God of the Bible.

They say that God is not Triune. They say that Jesus is not God. They say that God contradicts himself. They say that God tells them to kill the infidel and to only honor other Muslims. That is just a few things off the top of my head. Given time to study this and write it all out I could come up with more but I do not really have the time nor do I think it would be productive to do so as you seem just as set with your view as I am with mine which is fine as I believe this is just one of the many points where faithful Catholics may disagree.

I would also add that while knowing someones weight, as in my example, could be off a bit in describing them. If you described me as having brown hair and people were looking for me based on that description, I would not be found.

I think I have made my point here, so once again, I think it is time for me to move on.

So you believe that Zoroastrianism and Hinduism worship the same the same God as we do becuase the practitioners of these two religions say that they are monotheistic. I found these two with a quick search of the internet, I am sure there are many more religions that claim to be monotheistic.

 

[aridite]

ByzCath:

They say that God is not Triune. They say that Jesus is not God. They say that God contradicts himself.

If Islam is referring to a different “god” than the God-of-the-Bible, and they say this other “god” is not Triune, they are not wrong about the God-of-the-Bible"'s attributes. They are only wrong about God’s nature if they are referring to the God-of-the-Bible (which you maintain they are not). They would then be wrong in believing something exists which does not.

On this account, anyone who denies God is a Trinity, then, even though he calls himself a Christian, is not really a heretic, but an idolater. Arians were not heretics, but idoloters. I think the Early Church Fathers would have disagreed.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

aridite:

If Islam is referring to a different “god” than the God-of-the-Bible, and they say this other “god” is not Triune, they are not wrong about the God-of-the-Bible"'s attributes. They are only wrong about God’s nature if they are referring to the God-of-the-Bible (which you maintain they are not). They would then be wrong in believing something exists which does not.

On this account, anyone who denies God is a Trinity, then, even though he calls himself a Christian, is not really a heretic, but an idolater. Arians were not heretics, but idoloters. I think the Early Church Fathers would have disagreed.

Sorry but I have no clue as to what you are saying here but then again, I am done with this topic for now so it doesn’t really matter.

 

[aridite]

aridite:

On this account, anyone who denies God is a Trinity, then, even though he calls himself a Christian, is not really a heretic, but an idolater. Arians were not heretics, but idoloters. I think the Early Church Fathers would have disagreed.

For the sake of anyone who is interested, I will try to explain this, if it is not clear. ByzCath seems to say that because the Qur’an denies that God is a Trinity, it is talking about another “god” than the God of the Bible. That is, the God of the Qur’an is not the God of the Bible, so this position asserts, because the Qur’an denies God is Triune. Because they have another “God” than the One True God, they would be idolators. By this reasoning, anyone who denied that God is a Trinity would be an idolator. Arians, even though they claimed to be Christian, denied that God was a Trinity. Therefore, by this reasoning, Arians would be idolators, not heretics.

But the Early Church Fathers considered them heretics. They believed (rightly, I think) that Arians were referring to the same God as Catholics, even though they denied that this God was a Trinity. Arians worshipped the same God as Catholics, but were in error about most of God’s attributes. So with Muslims: although they do not think God is a Trinity, they nevertheless worship the same God, because both Catholics and Muslims agree that God is unique, supreme, uncreated and creator.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Islam professes to worship the God of Abraham, as does Judaism. Catholicism professes to worship the God of Abraham. Seems clear with regard to the object of worship.

Do Muslims and Jews in fact worship the God of Abraham? Some do, some don’t. Likewise, some Catholics merely profess to worship the God of Abraham, but in fact some do and some don’t.

In the final analysis, Islam and Judaism, while having a “ray of truth” are* in fact *erroneous about the nature of God and His will for them.

Catholicism is the one true religion.

 

[RSiscoe]

The following is a previous exchange from another thread, dealing with the same topic. I think the last part in bold really explains it.
St Felicity:

*God transcends our ability to define Him. If by “same God” you mean “same definition”–the answer to the question is no, Muslims do not believe in the same God. *
If you are asking the question in a historical sense, the answer is yes–Muslims believe in the God of Abraham.

*Clear as mud? *

RSiscoe:

Clear as mud? There is actually a better way to understand it so that it does become more clear.

People often say that God is too great for us to define; or that “we cannot put God in a box”. In other words, God is so infinite that none of us can completely comprehend Him. That is true, but it is the wrong way to look at it, for if one views God in that light, it is easy to begin to beleive that there is no true religion, only different “understandings” of God.

The truth is much more clear than that: The truth is that the infinite God (whom we cannot completely comprehend) has revealed many things to us, and requires that we believe those things. The Catholic Faith is the complete revelation of God. Therefore, the Catholic faith is the true faith since it teaches all that God has revealed. It is true that there may be more about God than He has revealed, but the Catholic faith contains 100% of the truth He has revealed. That is why it is the true faith: not because it claims to know every detail about God, but because it teaches everything that God has revealed to us about Himself.

All other religions are false. Not only because they do not believe what God has revealed, but also because they explicitly reject many things He has revealed.

If some religious group, such as the Jews, claim to beleive in the true God, they are wrong. Why? Because they reject what God has revealed about Himself, such as that He is a Trinity. They may think they believe in the true God, but their denial of the Trinity shows they do not. Jesus Himself told the Jews of His day that they do not even believe the Old Testament

, because if they believed Moses they would believe in Him, since Moses wrote about Him. So even the Jews, who had the revelation of God during the Old Testament, do not beleive in the true God. The only Jews who beleive in the true God are the ones who have become Catholics.

Just as there is only one true God, so too is there only one true religion of God. Those who reject that religion (Catholicism) have rejected the true God and therefore do not believe in Him. Thus they do not believe in the true God; and since they do not believe in Him they do not worship Him. It is that simple.

RSiscoe:

It is true that there is only one God, but the Muslims don’t know Him. They belong to a false religion and do not know the true God. They have invented a false God based on their errors.

We believe in the true God when our intellectual belief corresponds to the reality. It does not matter if the false God is visible, or invisible. The errors lies firstly in the intellect. The outward profession proceeds from the intellect (that which is believed). The one who worships the golden calf first falls into the error of believing it is God, then he bows down to it. The one who invents a false invisible God (Muslims, for example) does the same: first he invents a God based on an erroneous belief then he bows down and worships what he falsely believes is God, even though he can’t see it.

The one who invents an (invisible) false God based on heretical beliefs, is just as guilty as the one who worships the (visible) golden calf.

It matters not whether the Muslems “think” they are worshiping the true God, because their beliefs do not correspond to reality.

 

[aridite]

Heresy is a different sin from idolatry. Heretics wilfully assert and believe false things about God, but they nevertheless believe in the same God. Idolators wilfully assert and believe that something that in not God is God. Idolators do not believe in the same God that Christians do. Muslims, however, believe that the God of the Qur’an is the God of Abraham, and is unique, supreme, uncreated and creator. I believe that this is enought to show that the God of the Qur’an is the God of the Bible, and so Muslims are not idolators. They deny that God is a Trinity, so they say false things about God. This would make them heretics.

Won’t someone please tell me why they believe that Muslims believe in a false god. The fact that they deny the Trinity of God does not seem to be enough. Arians and other heretics deny the Trinity. But they, and Muslims, are saying false things about the true, Christian God. Muslims, Arians and Catholics are nevertheless talking about (and worshiping) the same God.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

aridite:

For the sake of anyone who is interested, I will try to explain this, if it is not clear. ByzCath seems to say that because the Qur’an denies that God is a Trinity, it is talking about another “god” than the God of the Bible. That is, the God of the Qur’an is not the God of the Bible, so this position asserts, because the Qur’an denies God is Triune. Because they have another “God” than the One True God, they would be idolators. By this reasoning, anyone who denied that God is a Trinity would be an idolator. Arians, even though they claimed to be Christian, denied that God was a Trinity. Therefore, by this reasoning, Arians would be idolators, not heretics.

But the Early Church Fathers considered them heretics. They believed (rightly, I think) that Arians were referring to the same God as Catholics, even though they denied that this God was a Trinity. Arians worshipped the same God as Catholics, but were in error about most of God’s attributes. So with Muslims: although they do not think God is a Trinity, they nevertheless worship the same God, because both Catholics and Muslims agree that God is unique, supreme, uncreated and creator.

This is what I thougth you were trying to say but you make two errors.

1. The fact that Islam denies the Trinity is not the only thing that leads me to believe that the God they worship is a different God than we worship.
2. Muslims can not be hereitics. Only those who profess to be Catholics can be guilty of heresy.

From the Catechism

2089 Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. “Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.”

As you can see, Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial, as Muslims are not baptized they can not be guilty of Heresy.

As Arians were a sect of baptized christians, they were guilty of heresy when they denied the Trinity.

Just becuase Muslims believe something to be true does not make it so. I do not doubt that they believe they follow the faith of Abraham, but they do not and I see you ignored my comment about other religions that claim to be monotheistic.

 

[aridite]

ByzCath:

This is what I thougth you were trying to say but you make two errors.

1. The fact that Islam denies the Trinity is not the only thing that leads me to believe that the God they worship is a different God than we worship.

Pray, tell, what else makes the God of the Qur’an different than the God of the Bible?

ByzCath:

1. Muslims can not be hereitics. Only those who profess to be Catholics can be guilty of heresy.

I stand corrected. Muslims are not heretics. But I will stand by my main point that denial of God’s Trinity is not enough to show that “the God of the Qur’an” refers to a different (non-existent) being than “the God of the Bible.” Arians denied the Trinity, but they were still referring to, and worshiping, the same God whom Catholics worship.

ByzCath:

I see you ignored my comment about other religions that claim to be monotheistic.

I thought you had left the discussion before editing Hindus and Zoroastrians in. I didn’t think most Hindus had only one God, but if they do, then, sure, they are talking differently about the same God I worship. Basically, I would rather assume anyone who admits to there being One Supreme Being to be referring to God, even if they give that Supreme Being very different attributes than He really has. If I think they are worshiping a different God, then I first have to show that their false god doesn’t exist, but then that there is only One True God, the Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. I would rather try to show that the God Zoroastrians worship became Incarnate in Jesus.

This is what St. Paul did in Athens when he preached the “unknown god” to which an altar was dedicated was really the God of the Bible (Acts 17:22-31)