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itsjustdave1988
Guest
Did the pagan Cornelius adore the one true God before becoming a Christian? (see Acts 10). Or do you suppose there is a difference between “adoration of the one true God” and “belief in the one true God”?
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RSiscoe
Guest
Dave brought up a good point. According to St. Thomas, Cornelius has what is called “implicit faith”. He did not have “explicit faith”, but rather “implicit faith”.
A person who explicitly believes in the Trinity and Incarnation, and who rejects no dogmas of the faith, is said to have explicit faith. Cornelius did not explicitly believe in the Trinity and Incarnation, but only because he had not yet heard of them. He did not possess the intellectual knowledge necessary to believe those doctrines.
However, it is said that he did have implicit faith which means that he was intellectually disposed so that when he did hear of the doctrines he would believe in them. Of course, only God would knows if anyone has implicit faith or not.
One way you can tell is a person had implicit faith is that when they hear the truth, they believe it. If a person is told the truth, yet does not believe, they neither have implicit, nor explicit faith.
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aridite
Guest
He adored and believed in the one true God. Even if he had explicitly denied that the characteristic “Triune” belonged to the one, true God, he would have been denying that characteristic of the very same one, true God he and the Jews believed in.
People who deny that God is a Trinity are wrong because they are talking about the same God which they wrongly deny is Triune. If they were talking about a different god, they would not be saying something false about our God. So with Muslims, so with Arians, so with Unitarians.
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Saint_Andrew
Guest
Hello
I know the last part is nonsense, but some people I feel get the impression that they do not worship the same God, hence that is why I said it. You will be surprised or not.
God Bless
Saint Andrew.
ByzCath:
I know the last part is nonsense, but some people I feel get the impression that they do not worship the same God, hence that is why I said it. You will be surprised or not.
God Bless
Saint Andrew.
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Saint_Andrew
Guest
Hello
Thankyou for that quote, I just say it for some people do not recognise that is only one creator despite the differences of our diverse world.
The islam religon are more stricted than ours to follow and seems to be growing quick.
God Bless
Saint Andrew.
aridite:
Thankyou for that quote, I just say it for some people do not recognise that is only one creator despite the differences of our diverse world.
The islam religon are more stricted than ours to follow and seems to be growing quick.
God Bless
Saint Andrew.
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itsjustdave1988
Guest
Yes, but he did so as a God-fearing pagan. He was a centurion from Italy who was neither Jew nor Christian. According to St. Peter, he had already heard of the things preached about Jesus. Yet he was, as-of-yet, still a God-fearing pagan. Did he adore the true God? Seems quite obvious he did.
Certainly if he were to deny the truth in any form, he would been committing sin. Yet, would it have been material sin or formal sin? Is there a difference in Catholic theology? Is it possible to adore the one true God, yet error in what St. Pius X calls “good faith?” What does St. Pius X mean by “good faith”, hmmm?
Nobody is disputing that they are objectively wrong. The question is whether one is necessarily failing to adore the one true God simply because they err in their notions about God.
Can you support your thesis with any magisterial texts which deny that Muslims adore the same God? Certainly they worship falsely, but the object of their worship is the true God, according to papal teaching.
I agree with Pope St. Gregory VII (pope from 1073 to 1085) to Muslim King Anazir of Maurentania: “… we believe in and confess the same God, although by different modes (licet diverso modo), that we praise and venerate each day the Creator of the ages and master of this world” [St. Gregory VII, Letter III, 21 to Anazir (Al-Nasir), King of Mauretania PL, 148. 451A.] I also agree with Vatican II’s solemn magisterial teaching of Nostra Aetate:The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth
I also agree with Pope St. Pius X, “there can be no holiness in dissension from the Pope.” (Pope St. Pius X, allocution of 18 November, 1912, AAS vol. 4 (1912), 693-695. Selection from p. 695)"
It is not the clever words they use, but the authority with which they speak that is compelling to me.
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aridite
Guest
I hope that it is clear that I believe that Muslims worship the same God that Jews and Christians worship. Others have asserted that the god of the Qur’an is different from the God of the Bible. I have argued that they are the same, despite the fact that Jews and Muslims deny that God is a Trinity and that Jesus is the Only Begotten Son of God.
itsjustdave1988:
itsjustdave1988:
itsjustdave1988:
itsjustdave1988:
itsjustdave1988:
Also, for the record, in re-reading earlier posts, I noticed that I never did call Muslims heretics. I said that by ByzCath’s reasoning, Arians should not be heretics but idolators (which they are not). So, neither should Muslims be considered to have a different false god (i.e., be idolators), but should be considered to worship the same God, but believe false things about Him. I retract my “I stand corrected” remark; I sit uncorrected, and justified.
These are interesting questions. I was trying to get clear, though, on what the nature of the error is. Are Muslims and Arians saying something false about the one, true God when they deny He is a Trinity of Persons, or are they falsely asserting the existence of a different (non-triune) god (and then falsely “professing” that their “god” (which doesn’t exist) is the same as the one, true God (Who does exist))? I believe both Muslims and Arians are making false statements about the one, true God. The Fathers of the Church thought Arians were making false statements about the one, true God. I think they would have said the same of Muslims.
Right, but again, what is their mistake? Are they in error about the nature of the real (and only) God, or are they idolatrously positing the existence of a false (and non-existent) god? I am arguing for the former. Others have asserted the latter – I would still be interested in hearing an argument for their position.
My thesis is that Muslims adore the same God; I do not deny this, but affirm it. ByzCath had denied that Muslims adore the same God.
I (and others) cited Lumen Gentium 16 (cited in the CCC), but these are good, too. Thank you for bringing them to our attention
Right. Once we get clear on what the clever words mean. I thought LG16 was pretty straight-forward. Others saw worlds and gods I hadn’t imagined (because they are not there).
Also, for the record, in re-reading earlier posts, I noticed that I never did call Muslims heretics. I said that by ByzCath’s reasoning, Arians should not be heretics but idolators (which they are not). So, neither should Muslims be considered to have a different false god (i.e., be idolators), but should be considered to worship the same God, but believe false things about Him. I retract my “I stand corrected” remark; I sit uncorrected, and justified.
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barsapp
Guest
well, i say that catholic and muslims do not beleive in the same God.
the following is what JPII says on his book Crossing the threshold of hope:
“I remember an event from my youth. In the convent of the Church of Saint Mark in Florence, we were looking at the frescoes by Fra Angelico. At a certain point a man joined us who, after sharing his admiration for the work of this great religious artist, immediately added: “But nothing can compare to our magnificent Muslim monotheism.” Whoever knows the Old and New Testaments, and then reads the Koran, clearly sees the process by which it completely reduces Divine Revelation. It is impossible not to note the movement away from what God said about Himself, first in the Old Testament through the Prophets, and then finally in the New Testament through His Son. In Islam all the richness of God’s self-revelation, which constitutes the heritage of the Old and New Testaments, has definitely been set aside. Some of the most beautiful names in the human language are given to the God of the Koran, but He is ultimately a God outside of the world, a God who is only Majesty, never Emmanuel, God-with-us. Islam is not a religion of redemption. There is no room for the Cross and the Resurrection. Jesus is mentioned, but only as a prophet who prepares for the last prophet, Muhammad. There is also mention of Mary, His Virgin Mother, but the tragedy of redemption is completely absent. For this reason not only the theology but also the anthropology of Islam is very distant from Christianity.”
jesus himself proclaimed that he is the only way to the true God.
there is agreement among muslims that we worship three gods.
it is difficult to endorse this thesis when the other side also support the contrary. furthermore your thesis is also against historical evidence.
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aridite
Guest
A couple of points:
First, in admitting that Muslims worship the same God, no one is saying Islam is equal to Catholicism. It has been repeatedly admitted that Muslims are wrong about the one true God which they and we worship, while the Catholic understanding of God contains the fulness of His self-revelation.
Second, in asserting that Muslims worship the same God, it is not asserted that Muslims believe this, either. They may think we worship three gods, but this just further indicates the mistaken opinions under which they, nevertheless, are worshiping the same God.
Third, Crossing the Threshhold of Hope is not magisterial, but Lumen Gentium and Nostra Aetate are. But even so, the JPII supports the point I have been trying to make.
barsapp:
barsapp:
Note: In saying that Muslims do not have the full revelation of God, I am not saying that the Qur’an is directly a revelation from God or an agent of God. I think JPII is saying, and I agree, that the Qur’an is a simplification of the OT/NT. Any truth it contains about the one true God (and it does contain some limited truth) it derived from the fulness of truth in the Bible. Why and how Mohammed simplified the worship of God is another story.
barsapp:
barsapp:
First, in admitting that Muslims worship the same God, no one is saying Islam is equal to Catholicism. It has been repeatedly admitted that Muslims are wrong about the one true God which they and we worship, while the Catholic understanding of God contains the fulness of His self-revelation.
Second, in asserting that Muslims worship the same God, it is not asserted that Muslims believe this, either. They may think we worship three gods, but this just further indicates the mistaken opinions under which they, nevertheless, are worshiping the same God.
Third, Crossing the Threshhold of Hope is not magisterial, but Lumen Gentium and Nostra Aetate are. But even so, the JPII supports the point I have been trying to make.
JPII is saying that Islam has diminished the self-revelation of God from the OT/NT, but not denied it altogether. There has to be something in common in the descriptions of God in the Qur’an and the Bible for one to be the diminishment or lessening of the other. Unless the Qur’an is talking about they same God, it is not making false statements (or failing to make fully, richly true statements) about the God of the Bible. If the Qur’an was positing a different god, it would be falsely asserting that this other god existed. It would not be falsely denying that God of the Bible is Triune. JPII seems to be saying that Islam has a limited understanding of the God of the Bible. In order for it to do so, it has to be talking about the same God.
JPII and I agree with this statement, but the way to God (in terms of knowing His truth, not achieving salvation) is not all or nothing – but more or less. While Muslims may worship the same God, they do not worship that God as well as Catholics do. This is precisely because Catholics have the full revelation of God through Jesus, and so we explicitly have the complete, and the only saving, access to God through Jesus. Muslims do not have the full revelation of God found in both the OT and NT, so their worship is likewise not as full. But Muslims still worship the same God, but do it in a less full way.
Note: In saying that Muslims do not have the full revelation of God, I am not saying that the Qur’an is directly a revelation from God or an agent of God. I think JPII is saying, and I agree, that the Qur’an is a simplification of the OT/NT. Any truth it contains about the one true God (and it does contain some limited truth) it derived from the fulness of truth in the Bible. Why and how Mohammed simplified the worship of God is another story.
It may be difficult, but the thesis that the Muslims and Christians worship the same God is true. I think logic and the constant magisterium of the Church demand it. It is unfortunate, and part of their error, that Muslims do not acknowledge this, too.
I don’t see how any historical evidence could trump logic and the magisterium, but I would be interested to know what you mean. It has been suggested before that Mohammed transformed the understanding of a local tribal deity into the monotheistic god of the Qur’an. This might be true from a sociological, cultural-historical perspective. But I am analyzing the “god” that Muslims worship as the result of this transformation. If, as I and the constant teaching of the Church believe, the God of the Qur’an is the same God as the God of the Bible, then (1) Mohammed simply gave a new name and understanding, albiet a diminished one, to the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David and Jesus; and (2) the name for the deity which did not and does not exist, is the name he gave to the one true God which does exist.
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dmm2000
Guest
One thought, in C.S. Lewis’ The Last Battle (Fiction), he describes a Colarmon(sp ?) in heaven. His basis was that the individual was honestly searching for Truth, although he was on the wrong side in Narnia.
When a person searches for the Truth, he is searching for the One True God. Those who believed in the One True God, but were not faithful were considered apostate, although they believed in the One True God.
I found this helpful in understanding our coming to the Truth in varying degrees. We know that Catholism has the fullness of the Truth, and we know God works with everyone where they are at. So if Abraham is the true father in faith, and if there is any Truth in Islam, then when that Truth is worshipped is not God worshipped?
When a person searches for the Truth, he is searching for the One True God. Those who believed in the One True God, but were not faithful were considered apostate, although they believed in the One True God.
I found this helpful in understanding our coming to the Truth in varying degrees. We know that Catholism has the fullness of the Truth, and we know God works with everyone where they are at. So if Abraham is the true father in faith, and if there is any Truth in Islam, then when that Truth is worshipped is not God worshipped?
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aridite
Guest
Yes, I think so. Thank you for your insight.
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Racer_X
Guest
God is real.
He is not just a character in a book. Is the God of the Bible the same as the God of the Koran? No. But the God of the Bible and the God of the Koran are literary figures. And what are these literary representations trying to represent? Is it not the one Creator of all?
Is the Christian idea of God the same as the Muslim idea of God? No. But neither are God. God is not an idea in humans’ heads. He is a fact. The Fact. We may have different conceptions in our faulty heads about that Fact, but it does not change the Fact. Nor does the observation that there are differences between our individual ideas of this Fact change the fundamental aspect of all such ideas … that they are ideas of this Fact and not some other fact.
Consider a fact such as the value of pi.
Just because 3.14159265 is a better estimation of pi, do we say that 3.14 is not an estimation of pi? Just so the full Catholic faith as compared to the Old Testament Jewish faith.
Just because 3.14159265 is a better estimation of pi, do we say that 3.1323448 is not an estimation of pi? Just so the full Catholic faith as a compared to Islam.
Ah, but 3.1323448 is wrong in many of digits, though right in some.
Just so with Islam.
3.1323448 may be an incorrect estimation of pi, but it is an estimation of pi. It is correct in its largest digits and progressively further from the truth in its lesser ones.
Just so with Islam. Its conception of God may be partly right, partly wrong. It is incorrect idea of God. But it is an incorrect idea of God.
Like 3.14159265, our Catholic faith is correct insofar as it goes. But it is still just an estimate.
3.14159265 is lacking an infinite number of digits of pi.
And our Catholic understanding of God is infinitely lacking in its understanding of God.
He is not just a character in a book. Is the God of the Bible the same as the God of the Koran? No. But the God of the Bible and the God of the Koran are literary figures. And what are these literary representations trying to represent? Is it not the one Creator of all?
Is the Christian idea of God the same as the Muslim idea of God? No. But neither are God. God is not an idea in humans’ heads. He is a fact. The Fact. We may have different conceptions in our faulty heads about that Fact, but it does not change the Fact. Nor does the observation that there are differences between our individual ideas of this Fact change the fundamental aspect of all such ideas … that they are ideas of this Fact and not some other fact.
Consider a fact such as the value of pi.
Just because 3.14159265 is a better estimation of pi, do we say that 3.14 is not an estimation of pi? Just so the full Catholic faith as compared to the Old Testament Jewish faith.
Just because 3.14159265 is a better estimation of pi, do we say that 3.1323448 is not an estimation of pi? Just so the full Catholic faith as a compared to Islam.
Ah, but 3.1323448 is wrong in many of digits, though right in some.
Just so with Islam.
3.1323448 may be an incorrect estimation of pi, but it is an estimation of pi. It is correct in its largest digits and progressively further from the truth in its lesser ones.
Just so with Islam. Its conception of God may be partly right, partly wrong. It is incorrect idea of God. But it is an incorrect idea of God.
Like 3.14159265, our Catholic faith is correct insofar as it goes. But it is still just an estimate.
3.14159265 is lacking an infinite number of digits of pi.
And our Catholic understanding of God is infinitely lacking in its understanding of God.
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Fizendell
Guest
Racer X:
While I can say that I have the understanding that Muslims worship the God of Abraham (it is Ishmael they believe Abraham put on the altar for sacrifice, not Isaac) I have seen a new direction of that understanding in this thread. It is very interesting when you realize that it seems to be the purpose of society to get us to see our similarities instead of our differences. And eventually, no one can see differences - we assume we’re all the same. Anyway - that’s another topic I think.
What I really enjoyed about Racer X’s analogy is that it pointed out the one thing we too often forget: God is infinite. Omni- everything! We cannot contain Him in our understanding - and that is so incredibly important!
After reading most of this thread, which is quite interesting given my meager understanding of other world religions, I just wanted to say what a great concept the above is.
While I can say that I have the understanding that Muslims worship the God of Abraham (it is Ishmael they believe Abraham put on the altar for sacrifice, not Isaac) I have seen a new direction of that understanding in this thread. It is very interesting when you realize that it seems to be the purpose of society to get us to see our similarities instead of our differences. And eventually, no one can see differences - we assume we’re all the same. Anyway - that’s another topic I think.
What I really enjoyed about Racer X’s analogy is that it pointed out the one thing we too often forget: God is infinite. Omni- everything! We cannot contain Him in our understanding - and that is so incredibly important!
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barsapp
Guest
Thank you aridite for your interesting post.
****The following belongs to ****the Bull ”Cantate Domino”, February 4, 1441 (****Council of Florence): “(****The sacrosanct Roman Church)… professes one and the same God as the author of the Old and New Testament, that is, of the Law and the Prophets and the Gospel, since the saints of both Testaments have spoken with the inspiration in the same Holy Spirit…”.
So, if we want to maintain that the Muslims believe in the same God of us, it must be demonstrated that they (the Muslims) full recognize, at least, the God of the Old Testament, “Muslims worship the God of Abraham”.
But, and again follows the already quote from JPII’s book: “It is impossible not to note the movement away from what God said about Himself, first in the Old Testament through the Prophets… In Islam all the richness of God’s self-revelation, which constitutes the heritage of the Old and New Testaments, has definitely been set aside. …the God of the Koran…is ultimately a God outside of the world,… never Emmanuel, God-with-us. Islam is not a religion of redemption.**”
*So, Muslims not only do not worship the same God “*in a less full way”, but they entirely worship a complete different “thing”, though you can identify it as “the same God of the OT”. Furthermore, becoming into existence after the Resurrection of the Christ, considered Muhammad a false prophet and an antichrist, taking into account the need of the Crusades to stop the annihilation of the Church, and many other historical and present facts, to say “we believe in the same God” appears to seem more a declaration of friendship (in other words: a surrender to the political correction stream) than a rigorous application of theology.
And a final point regarding LM 16 “…the Mohamedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God…” It is not said here that we believe in the same God. It is only stated that the Muslims adore what they say is the one God, but from this you can not conclude that it is the same God. They profess “to hold the faith of Abraham”, but they do not.
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aridite
Guest
When JPII says that the God of Koran is a God outside of the world, he is saying that the Koran is making false statements about the one true God. The Koran denies that God (the same God) became Incarnate. This denial by the Koran is false. I don’t think JPII is saying that the Koran is positing a different god (which doesn’t exist) which does not become man. If JPII meant this, the Koran would not be a diminishment and falsification of the OT. It would not be a “movement away from what God said about Himself” but totally new assertions about a totally different being. The Koran’s mistake would be to posit something which isn’t there (idolatry), not to misunderstand God’s true nature. JPII, it seems clear to me, is saying the Koran misunderstands God’s true nature.
barsapp said:
If the god of the Qur’an is a different (non-existent) “thing”, then I cannot identify it as “the same God of the OT” without abandoning logical consistency. I still don’t think you’ve shown they are different. Besides failing to include God’s Trinitarian nature (and the Incarnation), how is the God of Islam different from the God of the Bible?
Tell me if I understand the implication of your position correctly: On your different god theory, you believe that Islam does not make false statements about the one true God, since they are talking about something else (which isn’t there). So, you believe that the Koran does not misrepresent the nature of God. Is that right?
However the statement “we believe in the same God” appears to seem to you, it does not entail any particular endorsement or approval of Islam beyond the assertion that Islam says true things about our God. (That He exists, is One, is Merciful.) I admit that they say false things about our God, too. Your comments about “friendship,” “surrender” and “political correction” are non sequiturs
Would it be a betrayal of my Catholic faith to declare friendship with Muslims? Not with all, of course; not murderous ones. But then, I should not declare friendship with murderous crusading Christians, either (if there be any such). It is not a betrayal of the faith to be friends with Muslims any more than to be friends with athiests. Indeed, I believe true Catholics should declare a love for all Muslims (even murderous ones); it would be a betrayal of the Gospel not to.
LG16 says Muslims “along with us adore the one merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind.” On the only plausible reading of it that I can understand, it says that there is one action of adoring (the Muslim’s) to which the Church declares we are joined, and the object of that adoration is the one God who will judge. If the Fathers of the Council meant to dissociate our God from the Muslim’s false god, they could not have said that the one object of adoration would be the one future judge. I just don’t think this allows any wiggle room.
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itsjustdave1988
Guest
aridite,
Sorry, I got your thesis mixed up with others. http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon11.gif
Sorry, I got your thesis mixed up with others. http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon11.gif
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aridite
Guest
S’alright!
M
Milliardo
Guest
Pope John Paul II here is noting that for Muslims, God did not come down here in the form of Jesus. Islam’s view of redemption is different from the Christian concept of redemption through Jesus Christ. Again, this does not show us that Islam teaches a different god, but shows us that they have a different concept of who God is. Reading the Quran would better help one understand this. So, our disagreement stems more on the nature of God (Triune for most Christians as opposed to a Unitarian view for Muslims) rather than who actually God is.
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itsjustdave1988
Guest
“What therefore you [pagans of Athens] worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you.” (St. Paul to the Pagans, *Book of Acts, *17:23)
Did Paul view the “unknown god” worshipped by the men of Athens as a different God than Christianity?
Did Paul view the “unknown god” worshipped by the men of Athens as a different God than Christianity?
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barsapp
Guest
I suppose I finally agree with you. Muslims falsely (incorrectly) believe in the true God. A false god could not even exist. As the Mystical Body of Christ, the Catholic Church holds the whole Truth. Thank you for your patience.
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