Same God?

[Rachel_Malloy]

This is what the Catechism of the Catholic Church says about this:

**841 **The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

The Vatican Website- Catechism of the Catholic Church
Please see entry 841.

 

[jdrake]

Dear Rachael & all others

Thank you Rachael for your reference to the Cathecism of the Church. It’s well worth reviewing in context, which I did.

When I discussed this thread w/ my friend Sayad, he was quite concerned that any Christian might think he is worshiping a different God. I assured him that this was not the teaching of the Catholic Church. I am reminded to bring him my Cathecism and show it to him.

God Bless & again

Joseph

 

[hdbarton]

jdrake:

Dear Rachael & all others

Thank you Rachael for your reference to the Cathecism of the Church. It’s well worth reviewing in context, which I did.

When I discussed this thread w/ my friend Sayad, he was quite concerned that any Christian might think he is worshiping a different God. I assured him that this was not the teaching of the Catholic Church. I am reminded to bring him my Cathecism and show it to him.

God Bless & again Names Barton: Well, I think we could look at it a different way: Yes, as you say, "worship “the one true God.” But the Holy Father has done nothing more than restate the teaching of the Second Vatican Council, which said, “The Church also views with esteem the Muslims, who worship the one and only God, living and subsistent, merciful and omnipotent, the Creator of heaven and earth” (Declaration on the Relation of the Church to Non-Christian Religions Vat.2).
And they do try to worship that God and so they get an “E” for effort! However, you are forgetting that they also worship, to the very death, the God who says He is not a Father to anybody and those who say He is are going to the lowest Hell, and Jesus did not die on the cross, or redeem mankind and baptized persons are not children of God, and make no friends of christian, and it is ok to off someone who tries to quit the moslem church. Allah is not Jesus Christ - therefore it is not God. You must see it this way, the way all christians see it and the moselems see it a completely different way. Remember, there is a part of every religion that is true, but that does make every religions’ God true. :bible1:

Joseph

 

[jdrake]

Dear Barton,

I believe what your saying is all the church did is restate what was said before and those of us who ignored it then can keep ignoring it. The point of what the church is saying is to develop good relations with muslims. You are saying that the churches teaching that Allah is the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob can be ignored.

(Sorry if I seem a little hard on you here, but I’m defending what the church is teaching here as thefoundation of a sucessful approach to Islam)

You have also mistated some things about Islam. I’m not trying to gloss over real differences here. But the Koran refers to people of the book, which includes Christians and Jews. It says all people of the book are believers. Hence any reference in the Koran to non-believers going to Hell is irrelevant.

Some scholars on the Koran say that read careful it does not deny the cruxiiction. But that isn’t an important issue, as you are confusing that particulars of our understanding of God with the broad outline of who he is.

The Koran does persent some problematical passages on relations between muslims and non-muslims. On the other hand it instructs Muslims to treat Christian monks with respect.

I know of no passage that explictly forbids friendships between Christians and Muslims. I do know a Muslim who might cite such passages as could be interpeted in that manner . People told me I should be having long religious discussions w/ him because he was a fanatic. But he never cited to me because we were friends. And one of the last times I talked to him he was waiting for the Passion to come out so he could buy a copy. He thought it was a good movie. My other Muslim friends would probably deny that the Koran says any such thing.

To say that Allah isn’t our God because he isn’t Christ misses the entire point of what the Church is teaching here. If Christ is God then Allah is Christ if he is God and it’s quite possible for it to be so and a Muslim not to know it. ( hope I’m not offending any Muslims by saying this-- I’m not accusing you of ignorance but stating my belief that my faith in the Trinity is inspired by a fuller revlation, you have revealed to you what is revealed to you.)

Also it’s not really true that this is a restatement of Vatican II. It goes much deeper and much early than that. Aquinas wrote a work called Summa Contra Gentes. It was based on the work on Muslim theologians who had applied Aristotle and to an extent Plato to the Koran and Muslim tradition. He then applied Christian Scripture and Tradition to respond. Rathering that a total rejection he posits arguements as dialouge.

I suggest the following story A man was set upon by robbers and left on the road seriously hurt. Two Christians passed him by without helping him. A Muslim foound him a took him to an inn. He gave the Inn keeper some money to take care of the stranger and said when I return I will pay whatever else he owes. Which of the three do you suppose was (name removed by moderator)ired by the Holy Spirit?

Finally I suggest this approach to Muslims. Say to them Sallam Alli Kumm (my Arabic in roam alpahbet spelling is probably terrible) It means Peace be with you. If they are a faithful Muslim, even a member of Al Quida, they will respond Alli Kum Sallam, which means roughly and Peace be with you. Sound familar?

God Bless You

Joseph

 

[hdbarton]

jdrake:

Dear Barton,

I The point of what the church is saying is to develop good relations with muslims. You are saying that the churches teaching that Allah is the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob can be ignored.

(Sorry if I seem a little hard on you here, but I’m defending what the church is teaching here as thefoundation of a sucessful approach to Islam)

You have also mistated some things about Islam. I’m not trying to gloss over real differences here. But the Koran refers to people of the book, which includes Christians and Jews. It says all people of the book are believers. Hence any reference in the Koran to non-believers going to Hell is irrelevant.

Some scholars on the Koran say that read careful it does not deny the cruxiiction. But that isn’t an important issue, as you are confusing that particulars of our understanding of God with the broad outline of who he is.

The Koran does persent some problematical passages on relations between muslims and non-muslims. On the other hand it instructs Muslims to treat Christian monks with respect.

I know of no passage that explictly forbids friendships between Christians and Muslims. I do know a Muslim who might cite such passages as could be interpeted in that manner . People told me I should be having long religious discussions w/ him because he was a fanatic. But he never cited to me because we were friends. And one of the last times I talked to him he was waiting for the Passion to come out so he could buy a copy. He thought it was a good movie. My other Muslim friends would probably deny that the Koran says any such thing.

To say that Allah isn’t our God because he isn’t Christ misses the entire point of what the Church is teaching here. If Christ is God then Allah is Christ if he is God and it’s quite possible for it to be so and a Muslim not to know it. ( hope I’m not offending any Muslims by saying this-- I’m not accusing you of ignorance but stating my belief that my faith in the Trinity is inspired by a fuller revlation, you have revealed to you what is revealed to you.)

Also it’s not really true that this is a restatement of Vatican II. It goes much deeper and much early than that. Aquinas wrote a work called Summa Contra Gentes. It was based on the work on Muslim theologians who had applied Aristotle and to an extent Plato to the Koran and Muslim tradition. He then applied Christian Scripture and Tradition to respond. Rathering that a total rejection he posits arguements as dialouge.

I suggest the following story A man was set upon by robbers and left on the road seriously hurt. Two Christians passed him by without helping him. A Muslim foound him a took him to an inn. He gave the Inn keeper some money to take care of the stranger and said when I return I will pay whatever else he owes. Which of the three do you suppose was (name removed by moderator)ired by the Holy Spirit?

Finally I suggest this approach to Muslims. Say to them Sallam Alli Kumm (my Arabic in roam alpahbet spelling is probably terrible) It means Peace be with you. If they are a faithful Muslim, even a member of Al Quida, they will respond Alli Kum Sallam, which means roughly and Peace be with you. Sound familar?

God Bless You Dear jdrake, I like muslems and I know you are right - the Popes in question, guilded by the holy spirit, want us to cool our speech and befriend muslims and see the many wonderful thing these humans have accomplished. I just don’t want anyone to think that allah is Jesus in any sense what so ever. I know my God - that’s not Him! I know there are many wonderful Quotes in the Koran, but there are just as many frightening and threatening ones. I look in a few versions, but no matter what I quote, someone will say, “It doesn’t say that in the arabic!” What can I say? It says it in English, thats all I know. I know you know pretty much what it says in English - a lot! So no use my quoting more - I don’t see how it could be more damning, but, I don’t speak arabic and I never will - what can I say? You said, " I suggest the following story - A man was set upon by robbers and
left on the road seriously hurt. Two Christians passed him by
without helping him. A Muslim foound him a took him to an inn.
He gave the Inn keeper some money to take care of the stranger
and said when I return I will pay whatever else he owes. Which
of the three do you suppose was (name removed by moderator)ired by the Holy Spirit?""" "
See, that’s the difference. The only way a muslim can be good is to be directed by a super power from above, and some are consigned to be lost; but the reason the Christian acted badly is because he made a very bad use of his free-will. Free Will was used - see the difference? I agree with all you say, I’m just saying, we have a different God than they. Nice letter you wrote, thanks, Barton :bible1:

Joseph

 

[SolaChristo]

Muslims and Christians worship a different God(god).
Muslims will not allow Christians to worship in the whole of Saudi Arabia, if we worship the same God how can this be?

 

[Darrel]

SolaChristo:

Muslims and Christians worship a different God(god).
Muslims will not allow Christians to worship in the whole of Saudi Arabia, if we worship the same God how can this be?

They do worship the same God. They just figure that God requires Christianity to be illegal and in need of removal from planet Earth. In all reality Christians would feel the same way about Islam if Christ had not taught us to love and serve one another. But in the end they profess belief in the same God as us. I like the fact that Middle Eastern Christians say Jesus is Allah. I totally agree.

-D

 

[jdrake]

Dear Barton,

The only way that any of us can be good is to be inspired by the Holy Spirit. & God never violates anyones free will. And the only way any of us sin is to make poor use of his free will. But since you acknowledge that you want to have better communication with MuslimsI suggest you pray on this-- review the Cathcism and pray on it.

What we have that muslims don’t have is the fullest understanding of God. Here is how I explain the Trinity to a Muslim. I acknowledge the unity of God, which puzzles them. I then admit that we approach that unity in a different way. I tell them for God to exist, he must be a trinity, or we are deleuded as to his existence. In fact the fundamental unity of God is based on his Tinitarian nature.

There are 2 other possible explanations of the existence of creation than it’s creation by one God. One is that it exists without God. The other is that it was created by many Gods, each jealous of the other. I can then give one of many explanations that there must be divine inspiration of the universe – such as the need for a first cause. We can then discount that many Gods created the universe because of the fundemental laws governerning the universe.

I then ask, if a single God made the universe we must know why he did. A muslim will agree to the old Baltimore Catecism explanation, that he made me to know love and serve him. When he has agreed to that I then say that in fact God is love,. Some muslims will object that they beleive God is not an emotional being. (That is one possible reading of the Koran and in fact the most common one.) Tell them that in fact I am speaking of love as a relationship.

The explanation of the Trinity I use is that The Father’s Word is sent out, and they Love each other. The Love that exists between them is the Holy Spirit. God must be love or he would not have made us and creation, because it was made to know love and serve him and in return be loved by him. For God to be love he must see himself, as in the Father loving the Son, the Son loving the Father and so on. The fundamental unity of God that Islam insists on is ensured only by God being pure love. Each person in the Trinity is of the same being as the other and in complete deference to each other because of that fundamental unity based on pure love. If God were not love he would remain the only thing in the universe. He would make nothing and no one. But he cannot be love unless he is Trinitarian.

Dear Solo Christo,

You are absolutely right to be concerned about the persecution of Christianity in Saudi Arabia and to varying extents in many other Muslim countries. This is largely a consequence of Muslim theories of law that came into existence long after the Koran was written. I am not saying that Islamic practiing and teaching are correct. But this situation has nothing to do with the Islamic conception of a monotheistic God. In fact the persecution of others lies in direct contradiction to one of the prinicpal names of God --The Merciiful,

Here is what I suggest be are response to this Muslim practice. Emulate St Francis. St Francis went on a personal cruscade to the Holy Land. In fact he was the only true crusader because he had nothing but the cross itself as his weapon. He convinced a Muslim leader to allow Christian pilgrams to travelback through his holdings. He did this because he approach the man with love and respect and was accorded respect as a Holy Man. Reputedly that leader secrectly converted at the end of his life. It’s because we can offer Muslims a perfect understanding of their God that they are receptive to this.

By the way, in case any of you are rosary makers, I know that the Shrine of Our Lade at Ephesus in Turkey always needs Rosaries for the Muslims. A rosary making group I work with sent some there about a year ago. The Muslims just love Mary, who they call Miriam.

God Bless you All

Joseph

 

[SolaChristo]

Muslims and Christians do not worship the same God(god)

Muslims believe Christians are idolitors. They deny the divinity of Jesus and of the Holy Spirit. They claim to worship the God of Abraham and that Moses was a prophet. Yet they do not worship allah as Abraham worshipped his God or as Moses worshipped his God.
Is allah the true God aor a false god?
If Mohammed was a true prophet and in leading people to Islam then allah would have to be the true God. Mohammed was a false prophet leading the Muslims to worship a false god.
Why do we know this to be so —the bible and the quran conterdict each other. Either both are false aor one is false. We know the bible to be true therefore the quran must be false.
Muslim will say the bible has been corrupted and that Mohammed was sent to set Gods people back on the correct course.
It amazes me that so many Christians buy into the false assumption that Muslims and Christians worship the same God(god).