Same Sex Adoption Better than Abortion...right?

[ToeInTheWater]

So I have noticed two trends in CAF posts regarding SSA and Abortion…

Most replies to the topic regarding Cardinal Schonborn’s comments regarding stable same-sex unions have expressed trepidation; the only ones who haven’t, other than one exception, aren’t even Catholic, or who openly dissent regarding Church teachings regarding homosexual acts. “There’s nothing good about homosexual relationships” seems to be the consensus (again, besides posts from people who I know don’t agree with the Church teaching anyway).

Yet, as I pointed out in that same topic, it’s also a consensus that fornication is a lesser evil than abortion, and therefore, completely removing the stigma against unwed parenting is a price most are willing to pay to prevent abortions. Often, any attempt to suggest being an unwed single parent is a bad idea, such as “I don’t feel comfortable attending a baby shower for an unwed mother” is met by a chorus of “But at least she didn’t have an abortion!” or even “It’s judgemental Pharisees like you who drive these young women into the abortion clinics!”

Now, I know that being a single parent is not itself a sin, even if the sex act that led to parenthood was. But I’ve noticed the “at least she didn’t have an abortion” mantra persists here, even when people are posting about single mothers who didn’t repent of their fornicating lifestyle, but keep having kids out of wedlock – that they should be commended for “choosing life”. Even a post about a single mother who was found unfit to care for her children by CPS and is pregnant yet again – “at least she didn’t have an abortion”.

So…here’s the question, What if a woman pregnant out of wedlock stated that she was going to either (1) have her child adopted by a couple in a same-sex relationship or (2) have an abortion?

It’s strange, that so many posters have stated that even growing up in a series of foster homes is preferable to being brought up by a same-sex couple. But no one has dared say, so far, that a child is better off DEAD than being brought up in such a situation.

Of course, this is a hypothetical. Other options are the child being brought up by a heterosexual couple, or the woman raising the child herself. But what if she said. “I know I can’t raise this child myself. Adam and Steve are the only two people I could trust to raise the child. None of my heterosexual friends can do it, and I don’t want to give the child away to a stranger. I’d rather have an abortion than take the chance my child will be abused by foster or adoptive parents.”

So, which really is the Ultimate Sin for a Catholic? Engaging in homosexual acts, or having an abortion?

ETA: Please do NOT bring up the bogey man of “Adam and Steve are more likely to sexually abuse the kid than a heterosexual couple, anyway!” Let’s say the child is a girl, and the two men have very strong SSA, and wouldn’t be tempted sexually at all by the child. (It’s sad that I even have to make that comment, but I know many on CAF gleefully believe the “most gays are child molesters too” stereotype.)

 

[JimG]

Yes, fornication is a lesser evil than abortion—but—fornication causes more abortion because non-marital sex leads to abortion as a remedy for failed birth control. More fornication always means more abortion.

Contraception leads to fornication. Fornication leads to abortion. Shall a mother say to her child, ‘be glad I sent you to be raised by two women or two men, because I could have had you killed.’?

It is not a good practice to support evil actions just because they are lesser evils. Bad actions lead to more evil. Good actions lead to more good.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

Yes, fornication is a lesser evil than abortion—but—fornication causes more abortion because non-marital sex leads to abortion as a remedy for failed birth control. More fornication always means more abortion.

Contraception leads to fornication. Fornication leads to abortion. Shall a mother say to her child, ‘be glad I sent you to be raised by two women or two men, because I could have had you killed.’?

It is not a good practice to support evil actions just because they are lesser evils. Bad actions lead to more evil. Good actions lead to more good.

Thank you for pointing out that fornication is a graver sin than gay sex because it frequently leads to abortions, but I don’t think that was the question.

 

[JimG]

Thank you for pointing out that fornication is a graver sin than gay sex because it frequently leads to abortions, but I don’t think that was the question.

I used to have arguments with a roommate wherein I would try to devise scenarios in which he would have to decide who to kill. He refused to accept the scenarios or to answer. His only answer was, “You’re trying to make me kill someone and I won’t do it.”

I think he was right. I feel the same way about scenarios asking us to decide which evil to choose. One doesn’t choose evil. It is as if the government agent came knocking on the door and took the husband into custody. He told the wife. “We will either send him to the gulag for life where he will eventually die from malnutrition and overwork. Or we’ll just shoot him now. You decide.”

The answer is no, I won’t choose something that is wrong.

 

[ahs]

So…here’s the question, What if a woman pregnant out of wedlock stated that she was going to either (1) have her child adopted by a couple in a same-sex relationship or (2) have an abortion?

It’s strange, that so many posters have stated that even growing up in a series of foster homes is preferable to being brought up by a same-sex couple. But no one has dared say, so far, that a child is better off DEAD than being brought up in such a situation.

Of course, this is a hypothetical. Other options are the child being brought up by a heterosexual couple, or the woman raising the child herself. But what if she said. “I know I can’t raise this child myself. Adam and Steve are the only two people I could trust to raise the child. None of my heterosexual friends can do it, and I don’t want to give the child away to a stranger. I’d rather have an abortion than take the chance my child will be abused by foster or adoptive parents.”

So, which really is the Ultimate Sin for a Catholic? Engaging in homosexual acts, or having an abortion?

While the mother’s argument is flawed (there’s no logical reason to believe “Adam and Steve are the only two people…” and, since she’s willing to abort the child, her “trust” of anyone is irrelevant because she can’t even trust herself with the child’s life), abortion is clearly the greater evil. For the Catholic, abortion is a greater sin, so much so that it incurs automatic excommunication, while homosexual acts do not.

 

[Joe_5859]

I used to have arguments with a roommate wherein I would try to devise scenarios in which he would have to decide who to kill. He refused to accept the scenarios or to answer. His only answer was, “You’re trying to make me kill someone and I won’t do it.”

I think he was right. I feel the same way about scenarios asking us to decide which evil to choose. One doesn’t choose evil. It is as if the government agent came knocking on the door and took the husband into custody. He told the wife. “We will either send him to the gulag for life where he will eventually die from malnutrition and overwork. Or we’ll just shoot him now. You decide.”

The answer is no, I won’t choose something that is wrong.

That’s why these hypothetical moral dilemmas seldom shed much light, though they often produce much heat.

 

[Dorothy]

Many male and female couples who could not have a child for many years opt to go to a foreign country to adopt one…which is very costly.

A baby born to a single mother who does not want to raise the baby would do a very kind act to give it up to a male and female couple who would like to adopt. There are even scenarios where the mother willing to give up the baby can interview about three such couples and then choose which couple she wants her baby to be with.

 

[estesbob]

So I

So, which really is the Ultimate Sin for a Catholic? Engaging in homosexual acts, or having an abortion?

)

Both are mortal sins and both put ones immortal soul in danger. , So both are “ultimate” sins

 

[on_the_hill]

I think what you’re looking for is support for your conclusion, and I’ll be surprised if you find it here. My guess is that most of the answers will state that the pregnant woman always has more than those two options. Whether or not it is true that she does, I cannot say.

Personally, I’d rather be alive than dead, having done my best to avoid the latter for the past 48 years.

 

[on_the_hill]

Both are mortal sins and both put ones immortal soul in danger. , So both are “ultimate” sins

But the Church levied the penalty of excommunication for abortion, which it has not done for various forms of sexual sin. It seems the Church regards abortion as the worse sin.

 

[estesbob]

But the Church levied the penalty of excommunication for abortion, which it has not done for various forms of sexual sin. It seems the Church regards abortion as the worse sin.

Actually it wasn’t automatic excommunication for having an abortion unless one was aware that such a penalty existed for having an abortion. Regardless whether one is worse than the other is totally irrelevant when either one of them can end up with you going to hell

 

[Corki]

Thank you for pointing out that fornication is a graver sin than gay sex because it frequently leads to abortions, but I don’t think that was the question.

Fornication is NOT a graver sin than “gay” sex. Fornication can lead to an abortion but it can also lead to a new life or even to an eventual marriage. “Gay” sex can never result in either of those good results. It always has a bad end.

As to the OP, the woman in question would be the actor in the abortion but only the cooperator in the adoption. Cooperating with evil is almost always sinful but not as grave as being the principle operator in a mortal sin.

 

[on_the_hill]

Interesting. Having an abortion and participating in gay sex are equally bad and worse than fornication. What about adultery? Are they worse than adultery? What about masturbation?

Is a 15 year old who commits the sin of masturbation going to go to hell just the same as two cohabitating 30 year old gay men and a 25 year old woman who gets an abortion because she doesn’t want to give up her career plans?

 

[Evania]

I used to have arguments with a roommate wherein I would try to devise scenarios in which he would have to decide who to kill. He refused to accept the scenarios or to answer. His only answer was, “You’re trying to make me kill someone and I won’t do it.”

I think he was right. I feel the same way about scenarios asking us to decide which evil to choose. One doesn’t choose evil. It is as if the government agent came knocking on the door and took the husband into custody. He told the wife. “We will either send him to the gulag for life where he will eventually die from malnutrition and overwork. Or we’ll just shoot him now. You decide.”

The answer is no, I won’t choose something that is wrong.

Excellent answer!

 

[estesbob]

Interesting. Having an abortion and participating in gay sex are equally bad and worse than fornication. What about adultery? Are they worse than adultery? What about masturbation?

Is a 15 year old who commits the sin of masturbation going to go to hell just the same as two cohabitating 30 year old gay men and a 25 year old woman who gets an abortion because she doesn’t want to give up her career plans?

THE GRAVITY OF SIN: MORTAL AND VENIAL SIN

1854 Sins are rightly evaluated according to their gravity. The distinction between mortal and venial sin, already evident in Scripture,129 became part of the tradition of the Church. It is corroborated by human experience.
[1855](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/1855.htm’) Mortal sin destroys charity in the heart of man by a grave violation of God’s law; it turns man away from God, who is his ultimate end and his beatitude, by preferring an inferior good to him.
Venial sin allows charity to subsist, even though it offends and wounds it.
[1856](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/1856.htm’) Mortal sin, by attacking the vital principle within us - that is, charity - necessitates a new initiative of God’s mercy and a conversion of heart which is normally accomplished within the setting of the sacrament of reconciliation:
When the will sets itself upon something that is of its nature incompatible with the charity that orients man toward his ultimate end, then the sin is mortal by its very object . . . whether it contradicts the love of God, such as blasphemy or perjury, or the love of neighbor, such as homicide or adultery. . . . But when the sinner’s will is set upon something that of its nature involves a disorder, but is not opposed to the love of God and neighbor, such as thoughtless chatter or immoderate laughter and the like, such sins are venial.130 1857 For a *sin *to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent."131

 

[Evania]

But the Church levied the penalty of excommunication for abortion, which it has not done for various forms of sexual sin. It seems the Church regards abortion as the worse sin.

Regardless, if you commit either one and don’t repent before you die, they are both still mortal sins which will send your soul to hell.

Is a 15 year old who commits the sin of masturbation going to go to hell just the same as two cohabitating 30 year old gay men and a 25 year old woman who gets an abortion because she doesn’t want to give up her career plans?

Did the 15 year old in this scenario know that it was wrong, and if he did, did he then repent of his wrongdoing?
Same question applies to the other scenarios:,cohabitating gay men and the business woman.

 

[St_Francis]

So I have noticed two trends in CAF posts regarding SSA and Abortion…

Most replies to the topic regarding Cardinal Schonborn’s comments regarding stable same-sex unions have expressed trepidation; the only ones who haven’t, other than one exception, aren’t even Catholic, or who openly dissent regarding Church teachings regarding homosexual acts. “There’s nothing good about homosexual relationships” seems to be the consensus (again, besides posts from people who I know don’t agree with the Church teaching anyway).

The problem with Cardinal Schonbon’s comments is that they rely on what happens in the future, no? And so he tries to justify committing an evil in the present on a possible good we do not know, and overlooking the evil we definitely do know. The SS couple is *definitely *in objective sin and consequently unable to be good parents, and we do not know how the relationships will turn out.

Yet, as I pointed out in that same topic, it’s also a consensus that fornication is a lesser evil than abortion, and therefore, completely removing the stigma against unwed parenting is a price most are willing to pay to prevent abortions. Often, any attempt to suggest being an unwed single parent is a bad idea, such as “I don’t feel comfortable attending a baby shower for an unwed mother” is met by a chorus of “But at least she didn’t have an abortion!” or even “It’s judgemental Pharisees like you who drive these young women into the abortion clinics!”

Now, I know that being a single parent is not itself a sin, even if the sex act that led to parenthood was. But I’ve noticed the “at least she didn’t have an abortion” mantra persists here, even when people are posting about single mothers who didn’t repent of their fornicating lifestyle, but keep having kids out of wedlock – that they should be commended for “choosing life”. Even a post about a single mother who was found unfit to care for her children by CPS and is pregnant yet again – “at least she didn’t have an abortion”.

So…here’s the question, What if a woman pregnant out of wedlock stated that she was going to either (1) have her child adopted by a couple in a same-sex relationship or (2) have an abortion?

It’s strange, that so many posters have stated that even growing up in a series of foster homes is preferable to being brought up by a same-sex couple. But no one has dared say, so far, that a child is better off DEAD than being brought up in such a situation.

Of course, this is a hypothetical. Other options are the child being brought up by a heterosexual couple, or the woman raising the child herself. But what if she said. “I know I can’t raise this child myself. Adam and Steve are the only two people I could trust to raise the child. None of my heterosexual friends can do it, and I don’t want to give the child away to a stranger. I’d rather have an abortion than take the chance my child will be abused by foster or adoptive parents.”

So, which really is the Ultimate Sin for a Catholic? Engaging in homosexual acts, or having an abortion?

ETA: Please do NOT bring up the bogey man of “Adam and Steve are more likely to sexually abuse the kid than a heterosexual couple, anyway!” Let’s say the child is a girl, and the two men have very strong SSA, and wouldn’t be tempted sexually at all by the child. (It’s sad that I even have to make that comment, but I know many on CAF gleefully believe the “most gays are child molesters too” stereotype.)

 

[808Catholic]

OP,
Interesting you should ask for opinions on CAF and yet cast stones at those sharing their opinions! Please do not cast your stone towards me as I post my opinion.

SSM couples are not the only people who adopt children. There are heterosexual couples who are seeking adoptions as well. What fascinates me is the compulsion for ALL humans to want to nurture a young child regardless of sexual preference. I believe this is something God has put into all of us yet we wounded humans choose to tell God “it has to be on my terms” not His. If a man-and-man couple feels the compulsion to adopt a child, why can’t a single man? Same is true for a woman-and-woman couple. Why not a single woman?

The argument can be made “two adults present a better financial base” but then logic will extend to “how about 3 adults, 4, 5, a hundred?” While you can see the reasoning is consistent,the result is ludicrous. Why? Because God designed the human race to have one father and one mother as the parent of children. Humans are attempting to upset the order that God has put into His design and it will not end well if we continue such foolishness. When we follow God’s laws, we’ll be so much happier.

 

[Corki]

Interesting. Having an abortion and participating in gay sex are equally bad and worse than fornication. What about adultery? Are they worse than adultery?

Comparing abortion with sexual sin is futile. They are different in **type **as well as gravity.

But among sexual sins, “gay” sex is more grave than fornication since it is disordered on **two **aspects. It is both having sex outside of marriage and having a disordered type of sexual relations.

Adultery is considered worse than fornication since it adds a victim to the sin. I would say that on the “sin scale” adultery and “gay” sex would fall about equal. (unless you were cheating on your spouse in a same-sex affair)

Is a 15 year old who commits the sin of masturbation going to go to hell just the same as two cohabitating 30 year old gay men and a 25 year old woman who gets an abortion because she doesn’t want to give up her career plans?

All mortal sins can deprive a person of heaven. A 15 year old masturbating could have some factors that mitigate culpability (see CCC 2352) but the other two examples don’t seem to have any such mitigation as you have presented them.

But the Church levied the penalty of excommunication for abortion, which it has not done for various forms of sexual sin. It seems the Church regards abortion as the worse sin.

Abortion is not a sexual sin. It is a sin against human life in the same category as murder, genocide, torture and euthanasia. Saint John Paul II gave a very good explanation as to why abortion can incur excommunication in Evangelium Vitae.

 

[mommy_k]

if the pregant woman thinks abortion is better—then–by logic:

People can murder children who are adopted by gay parents because the parents are sinning, and setting a bad example.

How twisted is that? Yikes.