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shockerfan
Guest
c’mon Jim, that’s just crazy talk!
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ahs
Guest
Right, I understand that. I was answering in the limited view of the hypothetical scenario. I think it has been mentioned several times why hypotheticals are not ideal, and don’t really express the reality.
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Theo520
Guest
It’s a troll thread since you are only choosing life for the child.
The gay couple were already committing grave sin, and their continued sinning is not contingent upon saving the life of the child.
If the baby is aborted, they don’t magically turn straight & celibate, or one partner doesn’t transform into a woman with both partners now suddenly in a sanctified marriage.
That there are much better adoption options for the baby is obvious, but irrelevant to false dichotomy presented by the OP.
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808Catholic
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ToeInTheWater
Guest
Just so you know…I’ve been on this forum for years and racked up over 1000 posts, and this is the first time I’ve been called a troll! I should celebrate or something, I guess? 
Anyway, back to the serious point I was trying to make; not that the adoption if a child by a same sex couple, is a great thing that the Church should sign off on. I know that even Pope Francis has spoken out against that.
The point was more against those who find it fit to demonize people with SSA, often even the chaste ones, as just obviously morally degenerate and EEEVIL with no redeeming qualities at all. Yet, the same people find it easy to minimize the sins of heterosexuals, most find it obvious that a merciful attitude toward fornication is better than driving women toward abortion.
There’s a very Pharisee-like “Thank God I’m not as bad a sinner as That Guy Over There” attitude among many Catholics, that I don’t think Pope Francis would find at all acceptable.
And before anyone brings up the whole “sodomy is a sin that cries out to heaven for vengeance” – so is cheating workers out of their wages. So if you go by that part of the Bible, then Sam Walton was just as big a sinner as active homosexuals. And I’m not stating that as some general anti-Walmart thing. It is documented that he was forced to pay workers back wages by a court. It’s also rumored that he threatened those same workers with being fired, if they dared to cash the checks for back wages.
(Source: snopes.com/politics/business/samwalton.asp)
Anyway, back to the serious point I was trying to make; not that the adoption if a child by a same sex couple, is a great thing that the Church should sign off on. I know that even Pope Francis has spoken out against that.
The point was more against those who find it fit to demonize people with SSA, often even the chaste ones, as just obviously morally degenerate and EEEVIL with no redeeming qualities at all. Yet, the same people find it easy to minimize the sins of heterosexuals, most find it obvious that a merciful attitude toward fornication is better than driving women toward abortion.
There’s a very Pharisee-like “Thank God I’m not as bad a sinner as That Guy Over There” attitude among many Catholics, that I don’t think Pope Francis would find at all acceptable.
And before anyone brings up the whole “sodomy is a sin that cries out to heaven for vengeance” – so is cheating workers out of their wages. So if you go by that part of the Bible, then Sam Walton was just as big a sinner as active homosexuals. And I’m not stating that as some general anti-Walmart thing. It is documented that he was forced to pay workers back wages by a court. It’s also rumored that he threatened those same workers with being fired, if they dared to cash the checks for back wages.
(Source: snopes.com/politics/business/samwalton.asp)
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shockerfan
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Why didn’t you just ask what Catholics think about gay people if that is what you wanted to know?
If you want to know about what people in these forums think of non-married fornicating couples adoption children, ask that question too to see what answers you get.
The question you did ask obviously drew a number of direct replies, because, the gold standard of parenting is under attack, and people are trying to draw false equivalencies that somehow man/man or woman/woman is equal to man/woman, when it comes to marriage and raising children.
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ToeInTheWater
Guest
Well, I’m probably really full of myself to even think this thought experiment, might change anyone’s mind. But I did notice a contradiction between Catholics who find heterosexual fornication to be the obvious lesser evil compared to abortion, despite the fact that they are both grave matter, and those who find homosexual acts to be obviously morally equivalent to abortion.
I know people can come up with all sorts of Bible verses, Saintly quotes, etc., to explain why homosexual sexual sin is so obviously worse than heterosexual sins. So far, no one has convinced me of this.
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BornInMarch
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Homosexuals are not monsters, they’re human beings just like you or me.
Sexual orientation is not really controllable, so don’t claim that they’ll raise the child to be gay or “recruit” the child.
In my opinion, allowing a homosexual couple to adopt a child is no different than allowing a non-christian couple to adopt a child.
Sexual orientation is not really controllable, so don’t claim that they’ll raise the child to be gay or “recruit” the child.
In my opinion, allowing a homosexual couple to adopt a child is no different than allowing a non-christian couple to adopt a child.
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Joie_de_Vivre
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FYI both Fornication and Sodomy are intrinsically disordered.
Abortion and gay sex are most definitely not equal.
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estesbob
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Your “point” somewhat reminds me of posters who are constantly starting threads about the acceptability of homosexuality and then complain that "Catholics are obsessed with condemning homosexuality " . Homosexuality is not demonized any more than other sexual sins. The reason you see so much more direct condemnation of homosexual behavior is because adulterers, for example , aren’t demanding the church change its teaching on adultery .
I Haven’t seen anybody minimizing the sIns of heterosexuals( In fact trying to categorize sinners by whether they are homosexual or heterosexual is absurd on the face of it ). If you think this is true I suggest you start a thread saying the Church is wrong about premarital sex and adultery and see the reaction you get.
Even if your premise was correct it is totally irrelevant. I can be the biggest hypocrite in the world and it does not change the fact that homosexual behavior is a grievous sin that puts ones immortal soul in danger . You can’t minimize this by saying “well adulterers are just as bad”
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estesbob
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Our church, including our Pope, do not share your opinion :
*"At stake is the identity and survival of the family: father, mother and children. At stake are the lives of many children who will be discriminated against in advance, and deprived of their human development given by a father and a mother and willed by God. At stake is the total rejection of God’s law engraved in our hearts.”
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Pope Francis commenting on homosexual adoption
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shockerfan
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I would disagree with this assertion as well.
Heterosexual fornication, homosexual acts, and abortion are all sins that remove the grace from the soul necessary for salvation. However, one is particularly worse in that end ends the life of another human.
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estesbob
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It is easy defeating Strawmen . Nobody has contended that homosexual behavior is worse than abortion.
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Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
Is it better to be raped or murdered?
Is it better to beat a woman or beat a child?
Is it better to drink and drive or snort coke and drive?
Is it better to feed a baby poison or starve them?
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ahs
Guest
Amen. This is what the Church teaches, and I don’t think you’ll find anyone in this thread who disagrees.
I don’t think anyone claimed anything like that in this thread, and that’s not really the primary concern with same-sex adoption. While some people will argue for what is “okay” or “unharmful” for a child, the Church is concerned with what is “best” for the child. What is “best” is a mother and a father (female and male parents).
Again, the Church is concerned with what it “best” for a child. What is “best” is a mother/father…because that’s the way God set it up.
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Joe_5859
Guest
For what it’s worth, I don’t think you’re a troll.Just so you know…I’ve been on this forum for years and racked up over 1000 posts, and this is the first time I’ve been called a troll! I should celebrate or something, I guess?
Anyway, back to the serious point I was trying to make; not that the adoption if a child by a same sex couple, is a great thing that the Church should sign off on. I know that even Pope Francis has spoken out against that.
The point was more against those who find it fit to demonize people with SSA, often even the chaste ones, as just obviously morally degenerate and EEEVIL with no redeeming qualities at all. Yet, the same people find it easy to minimize the sins of heterosexuals, most find it obvious that a merciful attitude toward fornication is better than driving women toward abortion.
There’s a very Pharisee-like “Thank God I’m not as bad a sinner as That Guy Over There” attitude among many Catholics, that I don’t think Pope Francis would find at all acceptable.
And before anyone brings up the whole “sodomy is a sin that cries out to heaven for vengeance” – so is cheating workers out of their wages. So if you go by that part of the Bible, then Sam Walton was just as big a sinner as active homosexuals. And I’m not stating that as some general anti-Walmart thing. It is documented that he was forced to pay workers back wages by a court. It’s also rumored that he threatened those same workers with being fired, if they dared to cash the checks for back wages.
(Source: snopes.com/politics/business/samwalton.asp)
I get what you’re trying to do. But the opposition to same sex adoption is not that homosexuals are obviously so much bigger sinners than the rest of us. Of course that’s not going to be true across the board. The opposition to same sex adoption is that it creates a model of a family that is not true to reality nor in the best interest of the children. Children only come into the world in one way: through the union of a man and a woman (even if this “union” occurs artificially in a petri dish). And each child has a right to know and be raised by the two who participated in the child’s creation (and for those two to be committed to each other for life).
Now, this is the ideal. Obviously, the ideal does not happen for everyone. Parents die or are abusive or need to give a child up for adoption. But in those cases, the best replacement for the actual parents is a committed married man and woman. We need a mother and a father. Not two of one and none of the other.
So, yeah, if we view it in terms of sinfulness, then no one would be qualified to be a parent (except for Mary
). But that’s not the underlying issue.
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808Catholic
Guest
Yup, the Catholic Church is not as homogeneous as some would have others believe. We are over 1 billion people with individual thinking going on all the time. Of course there are those on the fringe who probably don’t agree with 5% of what the Church teaches but there’s so many more in the range of agree with 95% of Church teaching. This forum, large as it may seem, does not contain the full spectrum of Catholic (people) thoughts. A “thought experiment” with such a small percentage of representatives may not reveal anything truly significant other than we have a lot of different ideas of what being Catholic means.
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808Catholic
Guest
To whom do you think the Pope was directing this statement?
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ahs
Guest
He wrote those words to the 4 monasteries in Argentina when he was Cardinal there, urging them to pray for the legislators who were preparing to vote on same-sex-marriage and same-sex adoption. He was concerned that the lawmakers would “act in error” in accordance with the plan of “the Father of Lies who seeks to confuse and deceive the children of God”. A proposed bill in 2010 giving same-sex couples the opportunity to “marry” and adopt children would “seriously damage the family”, he said (in addition to what was already provided).
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Theo520
Guest
I spoke to the question but did not label you personally.
Your question is a completely false dichotomy, the only choice you offered was to choose life or death for the child. The child living or dying has no impact on the homosexual relationship. All children are raised by imperfect parents.
Attempting to use regulatory loopholes to save cost raises obvious moral and legal questions, but are you qualified to label it a Catholic sin of specific value (equal to sodomy)? I know I’m not.
Your question is a completely false dichotomy, the only choice you offered was to choose life or death for the child. The child living or dying has no impact on the homosexual relationship. All children are raised by imperfect parents.
Attempting to use regulatory loopholes to save cost raises obvious moral and legal questions, but are you qualified to label it a Catholic sin of specific value (equal to sodomy)? I know I’m not.
Just so you know…I’ve been on this forum for years and racked up over 1000 posts, and this is the first time I’ve been called a troll! I should celebrate or something, I guess?
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